Jaina Proudmoore

[Magnagarde]

And yet when pressed about issues with the Horde she talks about her parents that, as I just said, are more likely to be the victims of Orcs.

It doesn't matter at all when they're in the same military faction together. Orcs are all the more reason for her to destroy the Forsaken as they're fighting under the same banner. The Forsaken leave the most recent memories, especially considering Sylvanas now leads the Horde.

[Nathasil]

I believe anybody who hates on jaina only knows the small snippets of her story since cata. Considering she even got redemption in Warcrimes DURING this period...i just cannot take them seriously. Anybody know thinks of Jaina as evil or primitive simply has no clue, because even if her story was objectively bad (which i don't think)...then any other character story since WC3 would be a lot worse and therefore you would be wasting your time in the WC-Universe anyway.

I can only recommend to players who have only seen Jaina during the Purge of Dalaran in MOP on Horde side and two short cutscenes since, believing she is evil, to actually invest the time and read up on her.

[Zuben]

I don't mind Jaina's development, but it bothers me how she's excused for all the shit she's pulled, especially the Purge. Khadgar's resurgence was in dire need and it ended a pointless era of leadership that didn't have any reason to exist in the first place. Now that Jaina is no longer the head of a neutral party, but a commander in the Alliance during an all-out war with the Horde, she's in a far more agreeable position.

[Arrashi]

I don't mind Jaina's development, but it bothers me how she's excused for all the shit she's pulled, especially the Purge. Khadgar's resurgence was in dire need and it ended a pointless era of leadership that didn't have any reason to exist in the first place. Now that Jaina is no longer the head of a neutral party, but a commander in the Alliance during an all-out war with the Horde, she's in a far more agreeable position.

Thats the core issue with her and genn. If blizzard fully embraced them for what they are (in jaina case, a self-pitying hypocrite who blames everyone for her own mistakes and is clearly obsessed with idea that she always knows best) they would be great addition to story. But with all this whitewashing and "poor jaina take pity on her" they will never reach their full potential.

[Skyduke]

Thats the core issue with her and genn. If blizzard fully embraced them for what they are (in jaina case, a self-pitying hypocrite who blames everyone for her own mistakes and is clearly obsessed with idea that she always knows best) they would be great addition to story. But with all this whitewashing and "poor jaina take pity on her" they will never reach their full potential.

Let me guess, you play horde and think Sylvanas is rad?

[Arrashi]

Let me guess, you play horde and think Sylvanas is rad?

I play horde and think sylvanas is barely passable. She is way too soft for my liking.

[OIS]

Let me guess, you play horde and think Garrosh is rad?

Yes. /10chars

[Kelthos]

I think she has her faults, but overall I like her character. I think most of the hate generally comes from the fact that she hates the Horde. Characters who don't roll over and show their tummies to the Horde are generally regarded as terrible/crazy (probably by mostly Horde players) so it's to be expected.

[ello]

I play horde and think sylvanas is barely passable. She is way too soft for my liking.

She subjugated Koltira for making an armistice with the Alliance, if she had any balls she would've executed him on the spot. Silly weak-willed Banshee.

[Deleted]

The events that have been connected with her in a personal level could lead in a really nice series of quest lines and novels. Contrary to that Bliz have developed her in a restrained way for game purposes only. Shame

[Soulwind]

She's at a crossroads. If she comes back from the dark place she's in stronger and more determined to do the right thing, to be better than those who put her in that place, then she'll be ok.

If her recent actions are just the same spiral of pride/madness/anger that Garrosh went through, without any consideration for who she was initially, then she'll be indeed poorly written.

Because, yes, growing cynical is a character arc, nothing wrong with that. But you can't have the same person who, against everyone, worked to join both factions against the Burning Legion suddenly ignoring the threat of the Void and the Old Gods because she has strong feelings against the orcs.

She was the one who understood Thrall was different, she should understand that Garrosh was different, and she should see the greater good because she's supposed to be intelligent. "In the end, she became her father" isn't the right arc for her.

[Alfryd]

She's at a crossroads. If she comes back from the dark place she's in stronger and more determined to do the right thing, to be better than those who put her in that place, then she'll be ok.

If her recent actions are just the same spiral of pride/madness/anger that Garrosh went through, without any consideration for who she was initially, then she'll be indeed poorly written.

Because, yes, growing cynical is a character arc, nothing wrong with that. But you can't have the same person who, against everyone, worked to join both factions against the Burning Legion suddenly ignoring the threat of the Void and the Old Gods because she has strong feelings against the orcs.

She was the one who understood Thrall was different, she should understand that Garrosh was different, and she should see the greater good because she's supposed to be intelligent. "In the end, she became her father" isn't the right arc for her.

You're saying that with the benefit of being privvy to the Horde's version of events and interacting with Orc characters yourself. It's a privilege that Jania herself cannot claim.

Now, I don't want to engage with why Garrosh did it or anything remotely Horde v Alliance. But, from a literary point of view, players must understand what Alliance figures such as Jania have experienced and been exposed to. She's not seen what we have seen. All she has seen is that Orcs came through the portal, laid siege against humanity, destroyed a kingdom and was beaten back. They escaped, and started aggressively claiming resources which eventually lead to an aggressive expansion under Garrosh and the dark Queen. The apex being the complete obliteration of her own city.

To her, Thrall is the exception. Garrosh, to her, is the stereotypical Orc.

I completely agree with you that it would be poor writing if she went down a spiral of madness and vengence. But I disagree that it would be poor writing if she 'didn't see the greater threat'. To her, the Horde is the greatest threat to her mode of existence. To her, the ideology of the Horde has continually threatened her way of her. So, to her, why would she ally with them?

Tension works great in plots. Look at Game of Thrones for example. Numerous characters reject coming together for the greater good for very valid personal reasons. They're the ones that make the plot exciting.

So yeah, I don't want Jania to succumb to diplomacy. The Alliance sorely lacks figures that bring tension to the table. Genn and Jania are the only ones I can think of.

[Soulwind]

You're saying that with the benefit of being privvy to the Horde's version of events and interacting with Orc characters yourself. It's a privilege that Jania herself cannot claim.

Now, I don't want to engage with why Garrosh did it or anything remotely Horde v Alliance. But, from a literary point of view, players must understand what Alliance figures such as Jania have experienced and been exposed to. She's not seen what we have seen. All she has seen is that Orcs came through the portal, laid siege against humanity, destroyed a kingdom and was beaten back. They escaped, and started aggressively claiming resources which eventually lead to an aggressive expansion under Garrosh and the dark Queen. The apex being the complete obliteration of her own city.

To her, Thrall is the exception. Garrosh, to her, is the stereotypical Orc.

I completely agree with you that it would be poor writing if she went down a spiral of madness and vengence. But I disagree that it would be poor writing if she 'didn't see the greater threat'. To her, the Horde is the greatest threat to her mode of existence. To her, the ideology of the Horde has continually threatened her way of her. So, to her, why would she ally with them?

Tension works great in plots. Look at Game of Thrones for example. Numerous characters reject coming together for the greater good for very valid personal reasons. They're the ones that make the plot exciting.

So yeah, I don't want Jania to succumb to diplomacy. The Alliance sorely lacks figures that bring tension to the table. Genn and Jania are the only ones I can think of.

By all means, she can, and should be more cynical about the Horde. It's fine that she sees her past self as naïve and doesn't expect the best from the Horde. But she once saw past the "stereotypical orc" because she believed that they could do better, and that they would be needed to save the world.

She was right, and she shouldn't forget that when Azshara and N'zoth attack. She shouldn't pursue the annihilation of the Horde at the cost of the defense of Azeroth.

An example would be, something like the Broken Shore happens, they're planning the battle and she demands Alliance presence on the Horde side of the battlefield. That's fine, not trusting them after everything that's happened is logical. However, if she doesn't allow the Horde to be there at all, or even fights the Horde instead of the bigger enemy, then she's making a mistake that doesn't fit her character at all.

Working together doesn't mean being friends, nor forgiving the past, it means putting the common goal above that. That's something Khadgar, Turallyon and Thrall understand. It's something even Varian eventually understood. It's something she used to understand, and something she should remember.

She's no farmer from the Plaguelands, she's one of the most powerful and intelligent mages of Azeroth, she knows the threat better than most.

"Fuck it, I got hurt, the world may as well end" is not good enough. Not for her.

[ManiaCCC]

Jaina Proudmoore is many things, but good written character is not one of these.

She is inconsistent, many times act in really pathetic way.. at this point Genn, while his way of thinking is flawed, is more interesting character. Consistent with believable plot and agenda. Jaina however, she is in so sad state (she was on of my favorite characters in Warcraft lore)

[Arrashi]

With Sylvannas as warchief, you guys are villains. Get over it.

Does that mean that with anduin in charge you guys are pussies ?

[Benomatic]

Jaina for the best part has been very logical and accepting of the Horde. She has been very passive and also a peace faring candidate. She has been shit on multiple times, kept her composure up and until MoP.

I don't hate her at all for her current stance. She was the key advocate for peace talks. For every deed she was part of, she was shafted.

[Arrashi]

Jaina for the best part has been very logical and accepting of the Horde. She has been very passive and also a peace faring candidate. She has been shit on multiple times, kept her composure up and until MoP.

I don't hate her at all for her current stance. She was the key advocate for peace talks. For every deed she was part of, she was shafted.

You think that her granting military support to alliance AGAINST the horde while at the same time claiming to be neutral could be a reason for that ?

[Benomatic]

You think that her granting military support to alliance AGAINST the horde while at the same time claiming to be neutral could be a reason for that ?

She still had responsibilities. Thrall, Varian and Jaina were the part of treaty... That was worn down over time. She had to defend her people.

[Arrashi]

She still had responsibilities. Thrall, Varian and Jaina were the part of treaty... That was worn down over time. She had to defend her people.

But she weren't defending her people. She was supporting power X against power Z while claiming to be neutral.

[Doctor Amadeus]

People liked Jania because she used to be as pure as the driven snow, and honestly, I couldn't stand her, once she started developing scars I liked her, I don't like 1 dimensional characters, she had no flavor, I like it.

Peace and balance is all well and good until you have those ideas tested she has a good reason for developing the way she has.