Unholy T21 4 Piece MAJOR Hotfix

[RuneDK]

Unholy has a more complex rotation than Frost. And it is not based on the number of buttons you press.

So you're right about the number of buttons. But the complexity of the two specs are still different.

With Shattering Strikes in play I would argue that frost is much more complex now than unholy.

[Piz813]

With Shattering Strikes in play I would argue that frost is much more complex now than unholy.

Thank you Rune. Always knew I liked you <3
I been saying this since patch day.

It's not like mash button MG spec of 7.1.5. You have to think on your feet constantly!! SS before Rime is a killer if there is 5 stacks of razor.

Castigator build was when UH was fun this xpac IMO. Defile with CS and heavy (100+ mastery) was cool too. 2 armies a boss or even 3 was awesome . Now is bleh for me

[RuneDK]

Thank you Rune. Always knew I liked you <3
I been saying this since patch day.

It's not like mash button MG spec of 7.1.5. You have to think on your feet constantly!! SS before Rime is a killer if there is 5 stacks of razor.

Castigator build was when UH was fun this xpac IMO. Defile with CS and heavy (100+ mastery) was cool too. 2 armies a boss or even 3 was awesome . Now is bleh for me

They both have nuances that make them difficult to master so to speak. But neither one of them are necessarily hard to play....Even when frost was a two button spec(back when it was howling blast/frost strike spam) it still had nuances and timings to maximize dps. Just cause there were two buttons to push for dps didn't mean it was skill-less...otherwise people with the best gear/best kill times would have easily been the top DPS in world of logs or whatever metric we were using for parsing. They weren't, simply because of nuances. Unholy has it's nuances, just like frost has theirs. However I truly despise people who say frost is a brainless spec. The nuances of the spec have made it much more difficult than people give it credit for.

[Baddok21]

two things

1) after the change to shattering strikes that stops it from removing sub 5 stacks when you frost strike (will only consume stacks if there are 5) that took most of the nuances out of it.

2) Razor Ice stacks with shattering strikes kinda works like Wounds, except there auto applied at a much higher rate with all abilities and auto attacks you do.

i wouldnt say it has any relevant nuance, though it is alot better than WoD Frost at this point.

[Kaver]

With Shattering Strikes in play I would argue that frost is much more complex now than unholy.

Be my guest. But it's not true

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Thank you Rune. Always knew I liked you <3
I been saying this since patch day.

It's not like mash button MG spec of 7.1.5. You have to think on your feet constantly!! SS before Rime is a killer if there is 5 stacks of razor.

Using Rime (and the major frost CD's) before SS is not really a difficult task. When you've played the rotation a couple of time you don't really think about it anymore, it just happens instinctively. The unholy rotation in cleave fights also demand focus on dots on every mob. You don't really use frost fever the same way.

[Prothynyas]

the unholy 4 set bonus is complete garbage while frost 4 set bonus is going through the roof .. wtf blizzard ... Why you Hating Us Unholy So Much ??

[Deleted]

the unholy 4 set bonus is complete garbage while frost 4 set bonus is going through the roof .. wtf blizzard ... Why you Hating Us Unholy So Much ??

I think blitz intended 4pc to proc RE and count for valkyre damage

They fucked it up but now won't fix it or change it to something else, purely to save face

[Hellrime]

Frost dominating with a 2-button rotation, don't even have to position for Breathe anymore...

This WAS true in every expansion before Legion. Unholy and Frost are both on par as far as complexity this expac. I used to be an Unholy purist as well, but counting to 8 before Apocalypse then Scourge and Festering spam isn't really that much of a difference over counting to 5 before casting Sindragosa then going into Frost Strike and Obliterate. Unholy WAS the more complex spec and highly rewarding when played correctly, now they're about the same.

[RuneDK]

the unholy 4 set bonus is complete garbage while frost 4 set bonus is going through the roof .. wtf blizzard ... Why you Hating Us Unholy So Much ??

You had tier 20 set bonus miles ahead of frost. Now it’s frosts turn....

[Kaver]

This WAS true in every expansion before Legion. Unholy and Frost are both on par as far as complexity this expac. I used to be an Unholy purist as well, but counting to 8 before Apocalypse then Scourge and Festering spam isn't really that much of a difference over counting to 5 before casting Sindragosa then going into Frost Strike and Obliterate. Unholy WAS the more complex spec and highly rewarding when played correctly, now they're about the same.

But you also need to take things like "target switching" into account. When attacking a large group of mobs you don't really have to care which one you are attacking as frost. But for unholy, it is really annoying if you build up a lot of wounds and then have to change target for some reason. This aspect allows for more "carelessness" when playing Frost. I feel like the only thing I need to think about when playing frost is the Razor Ice stacks. Because the CD's is the same as for a BM hunter and should just be used on CD with no necessary planning or build up. Apocalypse and Dark Arbiter are not "brain science" but they still demand some more thought process compared to Pillar of Frost.

I guess on a stationary target dummy, unholy is not much more complex than frost. But in a dynamic boss fights with adds and priority targets, frost is much more simple to manage and requires much less planning.

[Piz813]

two things

1) after the change to shattering strikes that stops it from removing sub 5 stacks when you frost strike (will only consume stacks if there are 5) that took most of the nuances out of it.

2) Razor Ice stacks with shattering strikes kinda works like Wounds, except there auto applied at a much higher rate with all abilities and auto attacks you do.

i wouldnt say it has any relevant nuance, though it is alot better than WoD Frost at this point.

I loved WoD 2H frost in highmaul. 100k+ crits made my panties moist. It was far more enjoyable than stacking mastery and spamming HB like Rune said. THAT was mindless 2 buttons in SoO... and people still messed that up and sucked at It!

There are plenty of parses with guys still using RA in the top 500. Shattering Strike is added flavor to the spec. Again if you are playing SS you can't just mash what lights up. You have to think before each action.

But yeah let these dopes cry while we top our raids charts and progress through Antorus.

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You had tier 20 set bonus miles ahead of frost. Now it’s frosts turn....

This. T20 and CH was amazing for its time. People still use high ilevel t20 and do just fine today. It did have an "order " to follow exactly though and one miss click ruined your dps... meaning CH before Apoc mid fight etc. That 2 set 15% buff was killer in Tomb and 6 min army fit class fantasy way more. If I had some 950 ToS tier, things might be different for me today.

[Kaver]

Again if you are playing SS you can't just mash what lights up. You have to think before each action.

This is a bit exaggerated. You don't have to think before each action. You have to think a little bit before using Rime and every 5 minutes when using Sindragosa's Fury.

You can still mash what you want, and save Rime for 2 sec if you don't have 5 stacks of Razor Ice. With the new T21 4-set bonus it takes 3 sec to get from 0 to 5 stacks. Maybe less. And you don't have to use the Rime proc the second you get it, if you're not capping runes or having a killing machine proc. The punishment of the spec is still very small.

You definitely do not need to think before each action.

[Piz813]

But you also need to take things like "target switching" into account. When attacking a large group of mobs you don't really have to care which one you are attacking as frost. But for unholy, it is really annoying if you build up a lot of wounds and then have to change target for some reason. This aspect allows for more "carelessness" when playing Frost. I feel like the only thing I need to think about when playing frost is the Razor Ice stacks. Because the CD's is the same as for a BM hunter and should just be used on CD with no necessary planning or build up. Apocalypse and Dark Arbiter are not "brain science" but they still demand some more thought process compared to Pillar of Frost.

I guess on a stationary target dummy, unholy is not much more complex than frost. But in a dynamic boss fights with adds and priority targets, frost is much more simple to manage and requires much less planning.

Yes. True. It does suck when you got 7 wounds on an add then forced to swap targets. There is more planning and precision . The main issue we all have is the slowness and clunky ness then the ramp up time before hitting Valk. That's not fun for the majority. Another issue is Abom!!!!! Tired of that fat fuk I wanna use this glyph of skeleton or geist!!! DT on a normal ghoul looks 100 times better!!!

[Ozzyorcborne]

DPS wise both specs are pretty good. The one thing killing me is the lack of mobility. and before anyone can say "Hurr durr you haz wraith walk" , its a shit mobility tool with the cd that is has. Anything would be better, a shorter cd, 2 charges, a fucking pair of roller skates, ANYTHING.
Back OT, i just got my tier helm so i can use unholy again. Im eager to try it after this hotfix.

[Kaver]

Yes. True. It does suck when you got 7 wounds on an add then forced to swap targets. There is more planning and precision . The main issue we all have is the slowness and clunky ness then the ramp up time before hitting Valk. That's not fun for the majority. Another issue is Abom!!!!! Tired of that fat fuk I wanna use this glyph of skeleton or geist!!! DT on a normal ghoul looks 100 times better!!!

I would love for Blizzard to give us a "Lonely Wolf" talent like MM hunters.

[RuneDK]

I would love for Blizzard to give us a "Lonely Wolf" talent like MM hunters.

At least that's something we can agree on...

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But you also need to take things like "target switching" into account. When attacking a large group of mobs you don't really have to care which one you are attacking as frost. But for unholy, it is really annoying if you build up a lot of wounds and then have to change target for some reason. This aspect allows for more "carelessness" when playing Frost. I feel like the only thing I need to think about when playing frost is the Razor Ice stacks. Because the CD's is the same as for a BM hunter and should just be used on CD with no necessary planning or build up. Apocalypse and Dark Arbiter are not "brain science" but they still demand some more thought process compared to Pillar of Frost.

I guess on a stationary target dummy, unholy is not much more complex than frost. But in a dynamic boss fights with adds and priority targets, frost is much more simple to manage and requires much less planning.

I mean i won't disagree that target swapping sucks for unholy compared to frost....but that's because blizzard decided to give unholy combo points....which is half the reason i hate legion unholy...the other half is the emphasis on pets....I loved unholy when you micromanaged your diseases(ie festerblight in ToT or Necroblight in BRF).

[Deleted]

Hey guys, just wanted to chime in with a question.

A friend of mine has noticed that the extra coil casts do not buff Dark Arbiter, but they do reduce Defile's CD further through Death March and asked me to check his sims.

In the sims, extra Death Coils do not reduce the CD (which might be a slight dps difference, I'm not sure) and in general, Defile casts are rather poorly managed - out of potential 20 casts, the sim only casts 16 or so.

That leads me to the question - could fixing these issues make a difference high enough to actually have Defile sim higher or equal to Dark Arbiter? (I know it's just potential DPS and any time something leaves the area it's a huge loss, I'm just wondering if you could theoretically match DA's ST)

[Raiz]

You had tier 20 set bonus miles ahead of frost. Now it’s frosts turn....

Come on dude... I know you're a Frost die hard fan, but you can't be that much biased. Jesus christ, everytime I read your comment, I want to ignore you, because you simply can't stop talking about how frost has it "bad". Can you at least try to be subjective for once ?

[RuneDK]

Come on dude... I know you're a Frost die hard fan, but you can't be that much biased. Jesus christ, everytime I read your comment, I want to ignore you, because you simply can't stop talking about how frost has it "bad". Can you at least try to be subjective for once ?

In tier 20, frost did have it bad though...It's inarguable on how good the Tier 20 bonus was for unholy. It may have been the best overall tier bonus for either dps spec since the inception of DKs.

Also I am being subjective when I talk about frost as it is my personal feeling/taste in what I enjoy more about the DK class....maybe you meant objective...but you're going to call me the retard in the other thread you just quoted me on?

This was unarguably the best expansion since wotlk for all DK specs though. Blood has been a highly wanted tank for a while, and both DPS specs have had their time to shine in every tier. However, that doesn't change my response to the person I quoted in what you just quoted me for....Frost had a good(although ultimately boring) Tier bonus in Nighthold, then Unholy had an amazing tier bonus on the likes of which will never be seen again, now it's time for frost to have a great bonus over unholy(who's set bonus isn't terrible this tier.....they just need to make it buff arbiter and it will actually be a top tier set bonus).

[Raiz]

You're right. I meant I want you to be objective for once.

Wether they got a nice tier or not, I didn't care. Hell, I had full t20 + finally the best leggos, and still that was the moment where I played the unholy dk the least. You know why ? Because I didn't like the fact we had to tunnel the boss with valkyr. Much like I didn't like BoS. I did legendary / purple parses, and still wasn't having fun. I even played frost more because it had a much simpler rotation and had an on-demand burst.

You're just being way too nitpicky when it comes to Frost spec and you compare wayyyyyy too much with the others spec / classes when WoW is supposed to be having fun. BoS isn't here anymore ? Too bad. Does that justify you should complain about it for a whole fucking year ? Absolutely not.

Why are you even playing this game ? Just stop. As for me, I'll ignore you from now on. This is getting on my nerves.

I'm not even sure if Unholy had the best tier bonus before. Army of the dead every 3 minutes or so ? Big fucking deal. That's wasn't the only thing that contributed to the dps. It was combination of army of the dead, shoulders legendaries and Convergence of Fate that made it happens. For every dk that didn't had shoulders, I can guarantee you that they were doing average damage.

Sure Frost had it bad when t20 came around, but were they so far behind ? Logs say yes, but it was only 15% behind, even 10% behind at the end. It means instead of doing 1 million average DPS, you were doing 900K. Was that really game breaking ? Hell no.

F*ck that, I'm done. /ignored.