RTS Games

[Thrif]

You realize THIS is the entire problem and why the genre ate shit, right? When people say "because it's not Starcraft" whenever a new RTS comes out, they're referring to the fucking competitiveness of it. It's fucking multiplayer that has ruined this genre completely. It pisses me off so much.

No, the genre "ate shit" because StarCraft 2 was a step down from the previous games, because it's a very poor viewer sport that's difficult to grasp and see the nuances of unless you're a masters player yourself, and because of the huge influx of casual players who doesn't want their games to be like chess, but rather duck duck goose, aka LoL.

The genre was always meant to be competitive, again it was the genre that built the whole fucking competitive scene. You might personally think it's better suited as a single player game, which I can understand, but saying that it "ate shit" because it was multi-player focused is just delusional.

[Jastall]

No, the genre "ate shit" because StarCraft 2 was a step down from the previous games, because it's a very poor viewer sport that's difficult to grasp and see the nuances of unless you're a masters player yourself, and because of the huge influx of casual players who doesn't want their games to be like chess, but rather duck duck goose, aka LoL.

The genre was always meant to be competitive, again it was the genre that built the whole fucking competitive scene. You might personally think it's better suited as a single player game, which I can understand, but saying that it "ate shit" because it was multi-player focused is just delusional.

I'll only agree with the poster you quoted insofar as the RTS's popularity hinged a lot on its competitive multiplayer. Once the MOBA stole that from them, the remaining consumer base just wasn't strong enough to allow major, more single-player focused RTS to compete, and nobody wants to do serious competitive multiplayer RTS nowadays save for Blizzard which is always an outlier. Perhaps the upcoming new Age of Empires can start a new trend, but I doubt it myself.

Myself I'm still happy that the genre can still exist in some form. Battlefleet Gothic was a fun and unique RTS, and the Total War series is still going strong, and at its core it is more RTS than grand strategy or 4x IMO.

[ddengster]

You realize THIS is the entire problem and why the genre ate shit, right? When people say "because it's not Starcraft" whenever a new RTS comes out, they're referring to the fucking competitiveness of it. It's fucking multiplayer that has ruined this genre completely. It pisses me off so much.

They Are Billions has the potential to be a masterpiece. I've already completed it at 500%, it just sucked me in. It needs a lot of polish, and it sounds like the devs plan on adding more to it. Really looking forward to it.

But just about every other RTS that gets released has almost zero single player and just focuses on MP. Or the SP was an afterthought to please people like me, and just utterly fails.

Just wondering, what are examples of the games you played where the single player RTS sucked because they focused on MP? Grey goo?

No, the genre "ate shit" because StarCraft 2 was a step down from the previous games, because it's a very poor viewer sport that's difficult to grasp and see the nuances of unless you're a masters player yourself, and because of the huge influx of casual players who doesn't want their games to be like chess, but rather duck duck goose, aka LoL.

The genre was always meant to be competitive, again it was the genre that built the whole fucking competitive scene. You might personally think it's better suited as a single player game, which I can understand, but saying that it "ate shit" because it was multi-player focused is just delusional.

"Poor viewer sport"? WTF are you talking about? Compared to what? Just so you know, the first Esport with legit sponsors and popular legacy was Starcraft, because it was great for viewers who didn't know about the game. And this was in the 2000s where games weren't that mainstream yet. You just needed to see some slick micro in a pro game to be impressed enough to find out more.

You're likely referring to the amount of work needed for the casual to play and appreciate the game. But labelling 'poor viewer sports' just gives it the wrong meaning. In fact, FPS games without the spectator camera and commentary were wayy worse to watch.

[Thrif]

"Poor viewer sport"? WTF are you talking about? Compared to what? Just so you know, the first Esport with legit sponsors and popular legacy was Starcraft, because it was great for viewers who didn't know about the game. And this was in the 2000s where games weren't that mainstream yet. You just needed to see some slick micro in a pro game to be impressed enough to find out more.

You're likely referring to the amount of work needed for the casual to play and appreciate the game. But labelling 'poor viewer sports' just gives it the wrong meaning. In fact, FPS games without the spectator camera and commentary were wayy worse to watch.

Yes, my first post in this thread was largely about how the RTS genre created the competitive gaming scene and I've been following it since pretty early on, so I'm aware.

But just because it's the first doesn't mean it's good. It often requires a lot of knowledge about the game to watch, it's very difficult to catch all the nuances of the game, it's only 1v1 so there's no room for exciting carry/hero plays, and it often plays out very much the same most of the time with little variables. It did lay the groundwork, but Mobas and Shooters are just so much better viewersports for a lot of reasons.

And no, I'm not just talking about just the casual viewer. I'd personally much rather watch a CSGO or Dota tournament over a SC2 one despite following all three scenes and understanding what's going on, because SC2 is just not that exciting to watch for the reasons mentioned.

[Afrospinach]

Myself I'm still happy that the genre can still exist in some form. Battlefleet Gothic was a fun and unique RTS, and the Total War series is still going strong, and at its core it is more RTS than grand strategy or 4x IMO.

Just to be completely anal, anything like total war that doesn't allow you to build units in battle is really real time tactics. I am not sure I could ever call any of them RTS.

[Nihilist74]

Supreme Commander Forged Alliance is my favorite RTS. Get it cheap on steam for about 4$. Best modern warfare RTS.

[Jastall]

Just to be completely anal, anything like total war that doesn't allow you to build units in battle is really real time tactics. I am not sure I could ever call any of them RTS.

Meh. To me the genres are still similar enough that I don't care, I get the same kind of fix from it.

[endersblade]

Sins of a Solar Empire was top dog for me for a while, but I just got fed up that the game is 32 bit with all the options that require 64 bit. Get too many units out on a big map with lots of enemies and the game will crash because it runs out of memory. That is unforgivable.

[ddengster]

Yes, my first post in this thread was largely about how the RTS genre created the competitive gaming scene and I've been following it since pretty early on, so I'm aware.

But just because it's the first doesn't mean it's good. It often requires a lot of knowledge about the game to watch, it's very difficult to catch all the nuances of the game, it's only 1v1 so there's no room for exciting carry/hero plays, and it often plays out very much the same most of the time with little variables. It did lay the groundwork, but Mobas and Shooters are just so much better viewersports for a lot of reasons.

And no, I'm not just talking about just the casual viewer. I'd personally much rather watch a CSGO or Dota tournament over a SC2 one despite following all three scenes and understanding what's going on, because SC2 is just not that exciting to watch for the reasons mentioned.

Not trying to be an ass, but I'm not sure what I read there.

"it's the first doesn't mean it's good"
I've stated a few other reasons that don't concern it being first.

"it's very difficult to catch all the nuances of the game, it's only 1v1 so there's no room for exciting carry/hero plays,"
Uh..You're interpreting an RTS in terms of MOBA mechanics. Of course it's not going to end well. If you're looking for exciting micro battles there is some. Nuances of the game are the commentator's job to explain.

I'm fine with your preferences - it's a known fact that a game's accessibility is a big factor in it's popularity, as well as the pro player drama and hype surrounding it - something that SC2 lacks. But in other areas of spectator viewership I think SC2 does just as well, if not better than the other esports.

[DesoPL]

Supreme Commander Forged Alliance is my favorite RTS. Get it cheap on steam for about 4$. Best modern warfare RTS.

True dat.

Also funny enough, that AoE1 reemaster supports multiplayer crossplatform, but it won't be released on steam. xD

[Nihilist74]

True dat.

Also funny enough, that AoE1 reemaster supports multiplayer crossplatform, but it won't be released on steam. xD

I bought AOE2 HD on steam, still a great game. Going to buy AOE3 when it goes on sale. Used to love to use the map editor for both games and play for hours.

[Nazrark]

Sins of a Solar Empire was top dog for me for a while, but I just got fed up that the game is 32 bit with all the options that require 64 bit. Get too many units out on a big map with lots of enemies and the game will crash because it runs out of memory. That is unforgivable.

There was a patch last year that updated it to 64 bit and automatically allows it to exceed 2GB of RAM. They also released new DLC for it.

[Puzzony]

War front: Turning Point is a really nice game, check it out. It was made by the people who made Imperium Galactica, Digital Reality.

[Thrif]

Not trying to be an ass, but I'm not sure what I read there.

Anything in particular you'd like clarified?

"it's the first doesn't mean it's good"
I've stated a few other reasons that don't concern it being first.

Not that I could find, even when re-reading your comments. Mind re-stating them quickly?

"it's very difficult to catch all the nuances of the game, it's only 1v1 so there's no room for exciting carry/hero plays,"
Uh..You're interpreting an RTS in terms of MOBA mechanics. Of course it's not going to end well. If you're looking for exciting micro battles there is some. Nuances of the game are the commentator's job to explain.

I'm fine with your preferences - it's a known fact that a game's accessibility is a big factor in it's popularity, as well as the pro player drama and hype surrounding it - something that SC2 lacks. But in other areas of spectator viewership I think SC2 does just as well, if not better than the other esports.

SC2 definitely have qualities which makes in interesting to view for some people, but right now we're discussing what makes a game a good viewer sport and keeps it from dying. It's not my preferences, it's the preference of the majority, so it's what will make competitive game thrive or die.

[endersblade]

There was a patch last year that updated it to 64 bit and automatically allows it to exceed 2GB of RAM. They also released new DLC for it.

Hmm, I have all the DLC/expansions for it, I didn't know there was a 64 bit patch. I might have to fire it up again.

[ovm33]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Ashes of the Benchmark... er... I mean Ashes of The Singularity: Escalation. Made by the same people as Sins of a Solar Empire.

I thought it was enjoyable. Plan on playing at potato quality if your rig is a toaster though. This game is used to benchmark CPU's for a reason.

[endersblade]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Ashes of the Benchmark... er... I mean Ashes of The Singularity: Escalation. Made by the same people as Sins of a Solar Empire.

I thought it was enjoyable. Plan on playing at potato quality if your rig is a toaster though. This game is used to benchmark CPU's for a reason.

Ashes was TONS of fun. I put so many hours into that. I loved the concept and I loved how everything just WORKED. Fuck, I'm gonna download it now and play it again!

[ryan11d7]

I used to play Empire Earth: AoC back in the day online. That game was an amazing RTS game. I have been searching for a game similar to that for years but have not found anything. It seems the days of competitive RTS online games are not really a good thing anymore. If anybody comes a crossed a true RTS game with pretty solid online features, please do let me know.

[Orby]

Been playing a lot of Stronghold again, I frikkin love that game

[endersblade]

Been playing a lot of Stronghold again, I frikkin love that game

I socked so many hours into that game when it first released. I was a huge fan of an old game called Castles on DOS, and this felt like a re-imagining. I loved it. I've since tried playing Stronghold recently and for the life of me I suck ass at it! Not sure what happened lol. Maybe I'm just getting old.