Rogue 8.0 Discussion

[Eazy]

Why people are complaining about rogues? Rogues are very good atm (raids/m+) what do you want? A skill that says Press to Kill? Really... Sad

It's 8.0 discussion. We're not the same in BFA as we're in Legion right now.

[Raia]

It's 8.0 discussion. We're not the same in BFA as we're in Legion right now.

Im talking about BFA aswell we are in good way dont judge a class in the begin of the expansion. Dont make blizzard change rogues. we are fine trust me

[shaunika123]

Im talking about BFA aswell we are in good way dont judge a class in the begin of the expansion. Dont make blizzard change rogues. we are fine trust me

nobody is complaining about numbers though. the problem is with the gameplay.

[Coldkil]

Ok, i got gifted BfA in February and started playing again to get a new main for it (namely a void elf priest) but no way that i'm going to just leave my damn old rogue left in the dust - i will finally faction change to undead and play BfA on both sides because the story itself calls for it.

Since i didn't follow beta progression much, does someone care to recap our current situation (other than "it sucks")? I'm mostly interested in Subtlety, but i could play any spec if it's fun enough, though i don't think outlaw will appeal me much anyway.

[Slim Charles]

[...] does someone care to recap our current situation (other than "it sucks")? I'm mostly interested in Subtlety, but i could play any spec if it's fun enough, though i don't think outlaw will appeal me much anyway.

Like everyone we lost our artifact abilities and traits. None of the rogue artifact abilities made it into a talent. All 3 specs now are significantly slower in pace. Being energy starved is very common now, especially in sublety. You definitely heard aboud offensive cds being on the gcd, which makes the slow pace even worse. I can't for the love of god understand how some people defend this state of rogue. It is very much objectively terrible. Why would an agility class play this slowly?

[Varolyn]

Like everyone we lost our artifact abilities and traits. None of the rogue artifact abilities made it into a talent. All 3 specs now are significantly slower in pace. Being energy starved is very common now, especially in sublety. You definitely heard aboud offensive cds being on the gcd, which makes the slow pace even worse. I can't for the love of god understand how some people defend this state of rogue. It is very much objectively terrible. Why would an agility class play this slowly?

I don't think this is really the case for assassination. Idk if I would say it's necessarily better but it isn't really all that different than what it is on legion right now. Main loss being kingsbane but all the other traits were honestly just passive stuff except for the energy refund form vendetta which is being baked in somewhat in BfA. And while I hate the GCD change as much as anyone, it really has minimal impact on assassin especially since vendetta has always been on the gcd except in Legion. Now you may not like assassin in general cause it's always been one of the slower specs but I don't feel that it is any better or worse than what it has been since mop onwards.

[Slim Charles]

I don't think this is really the case for assassination. Idk if I would say it's necessarily better but it isn't really all that different than what it is on legion right now. Main loss being kingsbane but all the other traits were honestly just passive stuff [...]

I am aware that the talent tree hasn't changed much. That doesn't change the fact that we regen less energy and generate less cp because of balanced blades gone. I mean I'm not making things up here I tested everything out myself; everything is just way slower when I compare my 110 981 ilvl rogue on live to my 2nd copy on beta at 110 261 ilvl (same stat percentages except mastery).

And KB gone is a big difference for me. It was the one thing we could try min maxing on and now it feels like we don't do anything in our rotation. Legion Assassination was already a simple spec and now there isn't any depth to it at all. They should ditch toxic blade and bring KB back for it. Whatever, the talents are not the problem that really bothers me. Its the damn clunkiness, too little energy and it feels like they increased the gcd duration by 0.5s. Not necessarly a rogue only problem. All classes I tried except warlock and warrior are just way slower now. With fury being insanely fast I cannot comprehend why they would go for such huge differences in pace.

[Sin Cara]

You're definitely right, but I think higher ilvl will make things much better.

[telygroar]

Testing from back in alpha, 3 rogues upped for now.
For people wondering what spec to choose for pexing :

Assa with leech poison and poison bomb >= outlaw with brew > sub (because sub is shitty in survival, and shadow dance, well... Let's say you can't really have it up all time.)

[Defias-Pillager]

Legion Rogue until now should be the poster child of things you reference in any situation when you say the phrase, "if it's not broken, don't fix it."

[elfporn]

Like everyone we lost our artifact abilities and traits. None of the rogue artifact abilities made it into a talent. All 3 specs now are significantly slower in pace. Being energy starved is very common now, especially in sublety. You definitely heard aboud offensive cds being on the gcd, which makes the slow pace even worse. I can't for the love of god understand how some people defend this state of rogue. It is very much objectively terrible. Why would an agility class play this slowly?

i'm sorry dude. You do understand that resource gen is reset at the start of each expac? it has happened for every single expansion. it's part of player power progression and just like gear, is reset for each expac.

@Coldkil basic gameplay is the same as legion for assassination - the loss of kingsbane is minor for overall gameplay. poisons/bleeds are now affected by haste, and bleeds are on the mastery. Assassination has much better aoe options via talents now. Overall the most well rounded spec.

i'm less versed with sub/outlaw on the beta. The main loss for sub is the removal of DFA and the playstyle built around it during ToS and antorus. The burst and sustained dps(and dance) options still exist through talents. DFAs replacement looks like a decent skillshot. And a few other talents got shuffled. Energy gen talents will be the goto at start of expac, with pooling looking like it's even more important.

Outlaw is hit the hardest with the loss of the artifact. No more cotd or greed procs. Loaded Dice is a talent competing with SnD and Alacrity - there are a lot of complaints there. Blade flurry is now an AoE cooldown instead of a toggle. There's an interesting new talent that's a blade rush type ability, very very similar to DHs fel rush - a charge attack does aoe dmg on arrival, and synergizes with BF. Outlaw suffers from very very slow play due to low CP gen. But otherwise plays the similar to live.

[Naiattavain]

I love a drama queen

rogue was really fun during MoP and through to Wod. FACT rogue suffered great loss on fun factor when legion went live. especially after legion rogue is getting trimmed again. i think the best possibility of making the class fun again is going back to the original spellbook thats what alot of players know and trimming even further is just losing customers. its absolutely stupid the way blizzed is taking it.

Not to mention blizzards stupid obsession with taking away from the player because the player happens to be pretty damn good at what he specialises in. fucking up the rotations, fucking up the class experience every goddamn time. a rogue happens to be good at what he does. players are fed up with blizzed.

[Deleted]

rogue was really fun during MoP and through to Wod. FACT rogue suffered great loss on fun factor when legion went live. especially after legion rogue is getting trimmed again. i think the best possibility of making the class fun again is going back to the original spellbook thats what alot of players know and trimming even further is just losing customers. its absolutely stupid the way blizzed is taking it.

Not to mention blizzards stupid obsession with taking away from the player because the player happens to be pretty damn good at what he specialises in. fucking up the rotations, fucking up the class experience every goddamn time. a rogue happens to be good at what he does. players are fed up with blizzed.

Give me more baby

Infracted.

[Naiattavain]

enjoy you're infraction Drayiicha

nexellent, Well yeah, class design sucks for the 3rd expansion in a row, and people are finally waking up to it.

Infracted.

[Coldkil]

Thanks for the feedback. So i'm going to expect a slow pace as usual for the expansion start which will be "fixed" with gear and eventual buffs during the expansion course.

Basically, the sam ethings that happens every single time: apparently Blizzard isn't able to figure out a way to make rogues throughput consistent independently from gear and/or very specific abilities, which many times end making or breaking a specific spec.

I had fun with Sub the little Legion i played and honestly i feel i missed a good time. Hopefully BfA will be better, and while i can agree that there are design decisions that make me worried, in the end it's about having fun and hopefully my rogue stays fun, as it has been for nearly 14 years.

[Deleted]

If at least one spec is decent(hopefully two) at launch and the third is more of a gearing issue, sadly that means were in a pretty good place compared to some other spec/classes tbh.

Now we are rid of the artifacts switching between specs, if thats what you like to do, to chase the max damage will not feel like a punishing experience, bar shifting around some stats/weapons at the most.

Prolly gonna run sin for raiding/M+ as it does seem like the most well rounded spec at the moment then hopefully sub will become good like it always does deeper into the expac. Not really a pirate fan, but i'll play it if it's significantly better on certain fights.

All in all just happy i now have a choice again, i feels good to know that i can switch about like we used to be able to.

[Slim Charles]

i'm sorry dude. You do understand that resource gen is reset at the start of each expac? it has happened for every single expansion. it's part of player power progression and just like gear, is reset for each expac.

Legion did not bring this kind of a slow down compared to WoD. Then again, there they weren't touching gcd duration and putting it on offensive cds. Your toon should only become slower when you ding some levels and your stat percentages decrease with every level. It shouldn't be already shitty when you just copied your toon having the exact same crit/haste percentages as on live, which is the case right now. If they don't change anything until prepatch many people will see the difference then.

Only hope I have right now is that haste will be the absolute bis stat and that it will fix this comatose gameplay. Because if haste won't be bis and if azerite bis traits won't affect energy the pace will stay absolutely the same.

[Slim Charles]

I don't know of a single expansion I've been in with my rogue that I didn't feel starved for energy or damage at the beginning of each max level cap. Blue and green gear highlights this issue.

But you describe the perfectly normal case. You start feeling the slower pace when closing in on max level. Right now you are hit with that slow down still having the same insane mythic gear at level 110; and ofc it becomes even slower when you level up to 120. Meaning that gearing will only bring you back to that prepatch pace, which is slower than Legion pacing.

[Mafic]

The slow game play isn't because of energy starvation.

For example why is Blade Flurry on the GCD? Why does Outlaw have to deal with the GCD so much when the spec relies on globals so much now?

Sub went from fun fast and fluid to being induced into a coma.

Assassination is the best of the bunch because it actually is mostly improved heading into BFA. Outlaw and Sub took major steps back heading into BFA.

[Naiattavain]

Thanks for the feedback. So i'm going to expect a slow pace as usual for the expansion start which will be "fixed" with gear and eventual buffs during the expansion course.

Basically, the sam ethings that happens every single time: apparently Blizzard isn't able to figure out a way to make rogues throughput consistent independently from gear and/or very specific abilities, which many times end making or breaking a specific spec.

I had fun with Sub the little Legion i played and honestly i feel i missed a good time. Hopefully BfA will be better, and while i can agree that there are design decisions that make me worried, in the end it's about having fun and hopefully my rogue stays fun, as it has been for nearly 14 years.

im just going to log in once bfa go live. just to see if its different. but mostly i think ill decide to not play bfa. i mean aren't you guys heavily winded after legion? is rogue the new warrior or something? idk nearly for 14 years.