Sylvanas on the Buring of Teldrassil and Saurfang's Honor

[Deleted]

so many lvl's
i can't even...
amazing truly amazing

On which Level is that wrong?

I mean, the Alliance takes Saurfang as Prisoner, heals him and the King himself orders that he should be treated with respect.

What does the Horde do? Take young Girls and turn them into Mind Slaves, use them as Test Subject or let them fight under the threat that their children will be murdered. If they even take Prisoners, most of the time they nuke their targets instead of conquering them fair and square like the Alliance does.

[Maxilian]

Did i miss something? Do we know its an azerite bomb? All this time i thought she sent Nathanos over on a tiny black rowboat with a torch and he said *yeah, thatll work*...

Having in mind that it worked with Stormwind, Nathanos may have wanted to try what Zul did :P

Note: No, we still don't know anything, is just speculation.

[steelballfc]

On which Level is that wrong?

I mean, the Alliance takes Saurfang as Prisoner, heals him and the King himself orders that he should be treated with respect.

What does the Horde do? Take young Girls and turn them into Mind Slaves, use them as Test Subject or let them fight under the threat that their children will be murdered. If they even take Prisoners, most of the time they nuke their targets instead of conquering them fair and square like the Alliance does.

oh my friend
oh who i'm to question your logic, it's as if he was imprisoned before, it's not as he was healed and saved by Human Pala, and still didn't join the alliance, and fought them multiple times, it's not as he is a Model of the true Horde warrior, as honor and loyal, no by all means, ignore that, because you are truly an amazing man.
god bless you.

[Ash123]

On which Level is that wrong?

I mean, the Alliance takes Saurfang as Prisoner, heals him and the King himself orders that he should be treated with respect.

What does the Horde do? Take young Girls and turn them into Mind Slaves, use them as Test Subject or let them fight under the threat that their children will be murdered. If they even take Prisoners, most of the time they nuke their targets instead of conquering them fair and square like the Alliance does.

You have to understand the difference between a world-famous commander and common soldiers.

Even the guys who are in Horde rescue mission knows clearly that they can not expect the same treatment if they were captured. The treatment Saurfang received is clearly an exception rather than general role.

The orcs in old Alliance's camp is treated like slaves, and I doubt the current alliance would be better. (Jaina would happly kill any orcs that falls into her hand, and Greymane would do so for every forsaken).

Sylvanas once captured Lorna Crowley, and kept her in good condition and released her later with good faith.

The point is, if you are someone important, you can expect a decent treatment when you are captured. The common solider would not have such good luck.

This rule more or less applis to both sides.

[Deleted]

On which Level is that wrong?

I mean, the Alliance takes Saurfang as Prisoner, heals him and the King himself orders that he should be treated with respect.

As all the High Commanders during many our own history wars? Golden isn't writing this from thin air, Earth's history have a huge influence in WoW's lore.

After all, Saurfang also led Alliance soldiers during the War on the Silithid.

[Zulkhan]

Saurfang also doesn't fear death because he's actually a noble character

To be fair, Saurfang never experienced death; Sylvanas did.

it's not a meme, it's going to be reality.

No, it's a meme. But hey, it's 2018 and the social medias are exposing the lows to which delusional people are able to fall. In comparison, this is child play.

Anduin told him there's no honor in dying like a moron. So, the same thing Sylvanas said in the quote this thread is about. So why would he follow Anduin, exactly?

That's possibly the best part. Everyone's saying Sylvanas shits on Saurfang's idea of honor and yet they don't see how Anduin does the same since he does it the "Alliance" way, aka sugar-coated as hell.

Tricked by whom, exactly?

The pillar of salt, most likely.

Because Saurfang had no friends other than Vol'jin and Cairne. And you talk about denial lel

It's almost like he wasn't shown cheering at Baine's speech and chatting with him.

Saurfang leading the Mag'har to the Alliance makes the Void Elves the most logical lore decision ever.

FFS, the Mag'har were pro-Garrosh, they truly believe on the concept of the "heroic" Old Horde. This nonsense talk about Saurfang, THE PLAYER CHARACTER OF THE HORDE DURING WARCRAFT 2, ditchting his home, friends and family to lead the Mag'har to the Alliance is simply not having an ounce of narrative building.

Sorry Tauror, I'm going to steal this one until the "Mag'har/Draenor Orcs are going Alliance" nonsensical wave will calm down.

We have, thus far, two Alliance Mag'har advocates accidentally admitting their desire comes from them being salty about Nightborne and Void Elves.

Oh, there are more. Many more. You only need to check the related thread in the BfA's General.

Almost all of the normal mobs in SoO were Mag'har though. Particularly around Malkorok area that gets swarmed by Kor'kron after you kill him.

Don't forget all the Orc NPCs swarming from the sides of Garrosh' Underhold throne room during his SoO fight. Every single one of them is a Mag'har.

Garrosh did not fall in a single xpack either, it looks like they are laying the foundation.

A story arc like that somehow worked for Garrosh, who followed his Arthas-like road to damnation. Sylvanas is way too glaringly questionable and messed up, leading her to the villain road is just too predictable and holds no surprises whatsoever.

if i remember well is because everyone want peace and he was wrong for making war.

No, it was just the fact that Garrosh sucked royal balls when it came to rally and motivate people who weren't Old Horde-nostalgic Orcs. He kept screaming nonsense only Orcs could get aroused for and kept doing it with other seven races. He was the infamous madman expecting different results by doing the same thing over and over again, until he successfuly managed to get 90% of the Horde over his ass.

Garrosh's "insufficient" leadership qualities aside, Azerite seems to be the focal point of this war, something that didn't exist back when Garrosh was Warchief. That may deliver motivations that no one, not even Sylvanas herself, had back then. That, and the fact that we lack a humongous amount of info and context still.

she is the warcheif, she is above him, so sorry, but Sylvanas has more control over the horde then him.

Which matters for shit. Sylvanas is merely the Horde's leader. No matter how much he disagrees with her, not only Saurfang wouldn't turn against the Horde but not even against Sylvanas herself, not unless he finds a consensus among the Horde as big as the one that was formed against Garrosh back in MoP.

[Unholyground]

Sylvanas is trying so hard to become a loot pinata in future , Talking like that to one of the most iconic character of Horde.

Honestly they need a plot device to allow her or Nathanos to leave the Horde to train the Dark Ranger hero class, it is the natural next fit for class implementation.

[Syegfryed]

No, it was just the fact that Garrosh sucked royal balls when it came to rally and motivate people who weren't Old Horde-nostalgic Orcs. He kept screaming nonsense only Orcs could get aroused for and kept doing it with other seven races. He was the infamous madman expecting different results by doing the same thing over and over again, until he successfuly managed to get 90% of the Horde over his ass.

you are rly over exaggerating the situation, back in cata, at time he assume he was not like that, and yes everyone was shitting him because he want war, responding the war, without diplomacy, just in MOP they start to make him Hitler.

Garrosh's "insufficient" leadership qualities aside, Azerite seems to be the focal point of this war, something that didn't exist back when Garrosh was Warchief. That may deliver motivations that no one, not even Sylvanas herself, had back then. That, and the fact that we lack a humongous amount of info and context still.

yet, doesn't make sense why everyone is ok with her going full ape on teldrasill with dogshit reasons, and are shitting in Garrosh since day one, azerite or not azerite.

Like i said before, i expect the same treatment or worse, and it seems we are getting with the BfA spoilers, so im cool

[Darktbs]

Which matters for shit. Sylvanas is merely the Horde's leader. No matter how much he disagrees with her, not only Saurfang wouldn't turn against the Horde but not even against Sylvanas herself, not unless he finds a consensus among the Horde as big as the one that was formed against Garrosh back in MoP.

He doesn't need to leave, he can be Expelled.

[Zulkhan]

you are rly over exaggerating the situation, back in cata, at time he assume he was not like that, and yes everyone was shitting him because he want war, responding the war, without diplomacy, just in MOP they start to make him Hitler.

"Shitting on him" is a strong statement. Sure, Garrosh's war campaign never gained much consensus because it was strongly built over the "Orc takes what Orc wants" kind of entitlement, not because Orcs are stupid but because Garrosh was himself an Orc and the son of a pretty famous one too, add the fact that he was good with speeches and the Alliance gave him several justifications on a silver plate and that's how he got 90% of the Orcs on board; the other races (and other leaders, most notably) weren't affected by that kind of bias though and saw that Garrosh's war campaign was a drain of Horde resources (we have two Horde leaders who expressed similar opinions back then) a drain that was tolerated in Cataclysm only because the war was somewhat necessary. That necessity ended after Cataclysm and that's why Garrosh's stubborness to go along with it (over basically personal reasons, moreover) and escalate it to the heavens met more and more opposition.

Back in Cataclysm the only one who shitted on Garrosh was Vol'jin, and even him eventually swallowed the bitterness down and concluded that the Horde needed to stay united (for the time being).

yet, doesn't make sense why everyone is ok with her going full ape on teldrasill with dogshit reasons, and are shitting in Garrosh since day one, azerite or not azerite.

Her reasons may be flawed but sure as hell are better argued and explained compared to Garrosh's, who, again, often resorted to motivational speeches that could only work for the Orcs and eventually didn't work for them either. And no, arbitrarily dismissing Azerite doesn't change the fact that such substance is the obvious focal point of the conflict.

He doesn't need to leave, he can be Expelled.

Sylvanas expelling him wouldn't prevent Saurfang from finding that consensus at all. The guy is clearly friends with Baine, Eitrigg and many others. The amount of respect he earned over three decades tend to beat the one Sylvanas has yet to earn.

[Darktbs]

Sylvanas expelling him wouldn't prevent Saurfang from finding that consensus at all. The guy is clearly friends with Baine, Eitrigg and many others. The amount of respect he earned over three decades tend to beat the one Sylvanas has yet to earn.

Hard to say.

From the datamine, sample of the book and Legion, it doesn't seem the other leaders are unhappy with Sylvanas and if they are, they shure aren't giving as much attention like they did to Garrosh.Who, even before he went mad, was already getting his enemies within his own faction.

[Zulkhan]

Hard to say.

From the datamine, sample of the book and Legion, it doesn't seem the other leaders are unhappy with Sylvanas and if they are, they shure aren't giving as much attention like they did to Garrosh.Who, even before he went mad, was already getting his enemies within his own faction.

The fact that for whatever reason the other leaders don't find Sylvanas' leadership particularly questionable (and it's better do not argue about the how and why until we don't have the full story to judge) makes even less likely that Saurfang would do anything to earn an exile. If anything outright exiling Saurfang would severely damage the feeble trust Sylvanas is apparently trying hard to earn, making it a pretty nonsensical decision.

[Darktbs]

The fact that for whatever reason the other leaders don't find Sylvanas' leadership particularly questionable (and it's better do not argue about the how and why until we don't have the full story to judge) makes even less likely that Saurfang would do anything to earn an exile. If anything outright exiling Saurfang would severely damage the feeble trust Sylvanas is apparently trying hard to earn, making it a pretty nonsensical decision.

But its not farfetch to see her expelling him.
"Maybe you don't care if your people die so long as it is honorable, but to me, this Horde is worth saving. Anyone who disagrees does not deserve to stand among us."

And so far, Saurfang has been going agaisn't what Sylvanas is doing, even if the end goal is benefitial to the Horde.

[ThePallyRanger]

NEW DIALOGUE

Apologies if someone has already posted this.

The following dialogue has been removed:


"The Horde's children, and their children's children, will curse our memories as they burn.
If life had any mercy at all, you and I would exist in peace for the rest of our days. We have both seen enough of war, but neither of us has seen the last of it.
The Horde and the Alliance have been at a stalemate. Both of our armies have been exhausted against the Legion.
But therein, I see an opportunity."

"We take this azerite and use it to conquer Kalimdor.
We build the greatest empire ever known; one that is untouchable against the Alliance.
With the seas parting our lands, rather than mere borders, we can live and prosper without conflict.
That is how you ensure the survival of the Horde for the next hundred years, $n."


It has now been replaced with this:


"What is certain is that Teldrassil and its Night Elves pose a clear threat to the peace and safety of the Horde on Kalimdor.

Darnassus will serve as a safe harbor for smuggling azerite to the Eastern Kingdoms. We simply cannot allow this to occur.

To win this war, we must control the azerite. To control the azerite, we must eliminate the Kal'dorei threat.

We do not have time to waste."

[Deleted]

NEW DIALOGUE

Apologies if someone has already posted this.

The following dialogue has been removed:


"The Horde's children, and their children's children, will curse our memories as they burn.
If life had any mercy at all, you and I would exist in peace for the rest of our days. We have both seen enough of war, but neither of us has seen the last of it.
The Horde and the Alliance have been at a stalemate. Both of our armies have been exhausted against the Legion.
But therein, I see an opportunity."

"We take this azerite and use it to conquer Kalimdor.
We build the greatest empire ever known; one that is untouchable against the Alliance.
With the seas parting our lands, rather than mere borders, we can live and prosper without conflict.
That is how you ensure the survival of the Horde for the next hundred years, $n."


It has now been replaced with this:


"What is certain is that Teldrassil and its Night Elves pose a clear threat to the peace and safety of the Horde on Kalimdor.

Darnassus will serve as a safe harbor for smuggling azerite to the Eastern Kingdoms. We simply cannot allow this to occur.

To win this war, we must control the azerite. To control the azerite, we must eliminate the Kal'dorei threat.

We do not have time to waste."

Uh... smuggling? Transporting, yes, but smuggling would imply that they are breaking a law, wouldn't it? And... while the Horde may pass a law that transporting Azerite from Kalimdor to the Eastern Kingdoms, it's hardly a law that the Alliance would consider binding. Same as if the Alliance made Azerite transports for the Horde illegal, it'd be ridiculous

[sillag]

its nice that sylvanas isnt reading from mein kampf anymore i guess but now it kind of reads even more like a straightforward call to genocide

its starting to seem like burning teldrassil made a good splash image but actually sucks when you try to justify it in the story

[Minikin]

You have to understand the difference between a world-famous commander and common soldiers.

Even the guys who are in Horde rescue mission knows clearly that they can not expect the same treatment if they were captured. The treatment Saurfang received is clearly an exception rather than general role.

The orcs in old Alliance's camp is treated like slaves, and I doubt the current alliance would be better. (Jaina would happly kill any orcs that falls into her hand, and Greymane would do so for every forsaken).

Sylvanas once captured Lorna Crowley, and kept her in good condition and released her later with good faith.

The point is, if you are someone important, you can expect a decent treatment when you are captured. The common solider would not have such good luck.

This rule more or less applis to both sides.

i agree with all of that except the bolded part.

Yea she captured, but make no mistake it was under threat of raising her into undeath to stop the gilneas guriella war. there were no good intentions. she knew that if she harmed her, darius crowley would never stop, and the forsaken werent having much fun with him. it wasnt because of sylvannas' ethics or good nature (her character does not have any of those, it part of her theme).

on topic:

this is the 3rd time a superweapon has been sought out by the horde and second time used. it feels very much like they are taking horde on a diverse but downward spiral (mixed korkron guards and such). Hopefully this doesnt end up as a general warchief raid boss thing, because they are openly genocidal and warmongering.

As per the new diaglogue (assuming here, correct me if iam wrong), it is going very much on how she wants to take teldrassil out of the equation, to establish dominance of kalimdor. before it was more of a war that ends all wars dialogue.

[yetgdhfgh]

Seeing the update quest text then her destroying Teldrassil is like the horde destroying Theramore.

Teldrassil is a legitimate military target and if you stamp that out then the Alliance has no major bases in Kalimdor and thus all the Azerite that is springing out of Sillithus will belong to the horde.

The Alliance needs to have a port to ship that stuff over to EK and if they have no port they cant ship it to be used against the UC and SMC.

Though she has underestimated the Alliance resolve in taking the UC for her actions she sees it as part of a long game in that which ever side has the most azerite is gonna be the side who wins the war in the end if that stuff really is as powerful as everyone seems to think.

[Minikin]

NEW DIALOGUE

Apologies if someone has already posted this.

The following dialogue has been removed:


"The Horde's children, and their children's children, will curse our memories as they burn.
If life had any mercy at all, you and I would exist in peace for the rest of our days. We have both seen enough of war, but neither of us has seen the last of it.
The Horde and the Alliance have been at a stalemate. Both of our armies have been exhausted against the Legion.
But therein, I see an opportunity."

"We take this azerite and use it to conquer Kalimdor.
We build the greatest empire ever known; one that is untouchable against the Alliance.
With the seas parting our lands, rather than mere borders, we can live and prosper without conflict.
That is how you ensure the survival of the Horde for the next hundred years, $n."


It has now been replaced with this:


"What is certain is that Teldrassil and its Night Elves pose a clear threat to the peace and safety of the Horde on Kalimdor.

Darnassus will serve as a safe harbor for smuggling azerite to the Eastern Kingdoms. We simply cannot allow this to occur.

To win this war, we must control the azerite. To control the azerite, we must eliminate the Kal'dorei threat.

We do not have time to waste."

yea i noticed that too. it is still a bit muddy but definitely more on the side of, war for the sake of war, rather war to bring peace.

- - - Updated - - -

Seeing the update quest text then her destroying Teldrassil is like the horde destroying Theramore.

Teldrassil is a legitimate military target and if you stamp that out then the Alliance has no major bases in Kalimdor and thus all the Azerite that is springing out of Sillithus will belong to the horde.

The Alliance needs to have a port to ship that stuff over to EK and if they have no port they cant ship it to be used against the UC and SMC.

Though she has underestimated the Alliance resolve in taking the UC for her actions she sees it as part of a long game in that which ever side has the most azerite is gonna be the side who wins the war in the end if that stuff really is as powerful as everyone seems to think.

given muradin's quest, i think it might come down to both sides heroes knocking their faction leaders over the head. to stop battling and save azeroth. I am guessing this will start happening around that Azshara dialogue. I am reserving judgement until i see the alliance dialogue but at the moment it seems very much that the horde are the aggressors and painted as bad guys....again...

[Jastall]

The Mists rethread is getting more and more obvious. The old text was strategically unsound, but at least it gave Sylvanas motivation beyond conquest for its own sake. Now the Horde is attacking the Alliance on the off chance that they might use Darnassus as an Azerite smuggling port, the Warchief is the aggressor again, the Night Elves are punching bags, again, and an Alliance city gets nuked, again.

Or maybe they just move the actual motivations for the war to a stupid novel again.