PvP Normalization is an RPG, and Game Design Failure

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

The reason they took gear out of pvp is because players wanted an even field, so that skill was all that mattered. When they beat another player, they wanted to know that it was skill that won the fight (not gear accumulated over hours played).

PVE is about gear and a gear treadmill. That model really doesn't make sense for pvp, if you think about it for a second.

PVP is like a boxing match. Certainly the two athletes boxing could buy more expensive gear (Mayweather has a boatload of money he always talks about), but they decided to challenge each other in a test of skill (not a test of who has more money or the better gear (which you can buy with gold..... oh wait- you can trade WoW tokens for gold...... You buy WoW tokens with real life money (maybe that will help you see why the pvp'ers wanted to keep it true to skill with no gear).

Even in an RPG and fantasy storylines- there are matches of skill.

In the end, it all came down to the people that wanted pvp to be about skill outnumbered the players that just wanted to beat people because of better gear.

There no skill left in the game though.

Vanilla:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j-tbGtczZw

Legion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4PLXcxbvKE

He just cycling through cool down and hitting shit harder.

Legion:

[Rafoel]

The reason they took gear out of pvp is because players wanted an even field, so that skill was all that mattered. When they beat another player, they wanted to know that it was skill that won the fight (not gear accumulated over hours played).

PVE is about gear and a gear treadmill. That model really doesn't make sense for pvp, if you think about it for a second.

PVP is like a boxing match. Certainly the two athletes boxing could buy more expensive gear (Mayweather has a boatload of money he always talks about), but they decided to challenge each other in a test of skill (not a test of who has more money or the better gear (which you can buy with gold..... oh wait- you can trade WoW tokens for gold...... You buy WoW tokens with real life money (maybe that will help you see why the pvp'ers wanted to keep it true to skill with no gear).

Even in an RPG and fantasy storylines- there are matches of skill.

In the end, it all came down to the people that wanted pvp to be about skill outnumbered the players that just wanted to beat people because of better gear.

Uuuuh did they though?

Random bgs are pretty much dead. People enter them only to farm prestige. People who enjoyed PvP in its former state left... and people who enjoyed "pure skill" didnt replace them because these people never cared about PvP in WoW in the first place... as WoW is not a PvP game.

PvP in WoW was never about "challenging others to test of skill". PvP in RPGs is about testing the strength of CHARACTERS, not the players.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Uuuuh did they though?

Random bgs are pretty much dead. People enter them only to farm prestige. People who enjoyed PvP in its former state left... and people who enjoyed "pure skill" didnt replace them because these people never cared about PvP in WoW in the first place... as WoW is not a PvP game.

PvP in WoW was never about "challenging others to test of skill". PvP in RPGs is about testing the strength of CHARACTERS, not the players.

It was there a huge difference between to players but now it's garbage. In cata I used a high warlord set on my hunter and killed multiple at once in battlegrounds cause it was fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYcIU_EjjBg

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so the rogue would just hide in stealth and wait for you to run out then kill you.
you really think a rogue with ONLY GREY DAGGERS killing a FULLY GEARED RAIDER is good pvp?
and btw that wasent cause of gear that was just how broken rogues were at times.

You just needed to get a bleed on the rogue back than. They didn't have infinite mobility and sprint didn't remove slows. You could use items to get out of there crowd controls two examples are the potions of free action and skull of impending doom. The fact everything in world mattered in vanilla helped balance pvp.

Mist was my favorite pvp period in wow I just pointed to Vanilla because that how mindless live pvp has become. A game that's 14 year old is harder to master in that aspect than a game released in 2016. At least for casual and solo play but arena might still take some skill.

[Alydael]

Uuuuh did they though?

Random bgs are pretty much dead. People enter them only to farm prestige. People who enjoyed PvP in its former state left... and people who enjoyed "pure skill" didnt replace them because these people never cared about PvP in WoW in the first place... as WoW is not a PvP game.

PvP in WoW was never about "challenging others to test of skill". PvP in RPGs is about testing the strength of CHARACTERS, not the players.

I don't think those players would really be playing in random bg's........... Random bg's are dead because of the terrible match making system and the reward structure.

I would differ with you on the test of skill point. Just look at how they structure the tournaments when money is it stake- gear is not a factor (at all).

Could it ever be 100% skill vs 100% skill. Of course not, not even the olympics or professional sports achieves that but it can get close.

Also look at it this way. How would you feel if the Patriots beat the Eagles only because they had better uniforms that helped them run faster (better gear basically). Would you still consider them the "better" team? Would you consider the game "valid" or "fair?" Would you call them "champions?"

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There no skill left in the game though.

Vanilla:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j-tbGtczZw

Legion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4PLXcxbvKE

He just cycling through cool down and hitting shit harder.

Legion:

I wasn't saying it was perfect but I think it is a better system than a power through gear based system. Think of other pvp type games- most of them don't rely on gear for power.

The problem is also not so much the lack of gear in pvp, but the pvp reward system overall really needs some work. Blizz just doesn't put enough resources into pvp to get what they (and the players) want out of it.

There is so much untapped potential in pvp, they are fools not to exploit it. There were times when I think pvp carried this game for a while (content droughts, bad x-pac/raid cycles) so the potential is there.

[dacoolist]

- On Paper, the new system was AMAZING
- We knew Blizz could adjust the class's/specs that needed to be adjusted quickly and effectively because instanced PVP templates were set in place
- Just like FelP stated, per 10 iLVL's above like 910 or 900 it's 1% instanced pvp stat buff.. and obviously Blizz capped the weapon at some super low level

But PVP fell to the bottom of the bottom this xpac.. why? Because of the carrot on a stick. Why pvp when you could PVE for better gear, easier, and much more effectively?

PVP has been falling for many xpac's and it's falling because it's no longer even supported, or cared about - and it sucks for a lot of my friends who've ALWAYS been into PVP. I try to do it all, but Random BG's have always been my fav.. I feel bad for people where that's all that they do: Because they are probably unhappy with the current state IMO (I do enjoy the prestige system btw)

[Critical92]

The legion template system is not that bad but it has one major flaw and that is the stat distribution.

A friend came back to wow and asked if he could see his pvp stats without joining a bg or arena game and i showed him the pvp dummy.
As an example i take my 970 rogue. My rogue has, when i hit the pvp dummy, 50% crit, 27% mastery, 9% versa and 26% haste unbuffed.

I can say, my rogue has 26% haste as a wasted stat, because for sub it is garbage.

We, as players, have no control over our stats in legion and that is really bad.

In wod you had the pvp gear that was boosted to a fix itemlvl in pvp and you could decide which stats you want because you had most of the time multiple items to choose from.
You can like, hate or really hate wod, but the pvp gear system was the best we ever had.
Honor gear was obtained really fast and even arena gear didn't take that long to get.
Ashran was annoying but 1-2 hours and you had full honor with a few arena pieces.

[Wulfstan]

PvP should always be about skill not power provided by gear.

[Deleted]

Is this an RPG or isn't it?

Blizzard doesn't seem to be entirely sure.

GEAR SHOULD MATTER IN PVP

If you want to play chess, play chess - for everyone else, the players that work harder deserve better better gear, better stats, and increased power in PVP.

That doesn't mean make everything gear dependent - NO, there is such a thing as a balance, but if you want to motivate players to PLAY your game, you need to make it worthwhile to farm the gear.

IN NATURE, THE MAN THAT HAD THE MOST SKILL AQUIRED MORE FOOD AND GOT MORE POWERFUL, THE ALPHA MALE IS STRONGER BECAUSE OF THE FOOD (GEAR) THAT HE HAS BULKED WITH AS WELL AS HIS SKILLS.

Reflect reality in your game or see it die even more.

In reality, everyone salty about gear normalisation in PvP is just a kid that can't one shot low geared players anymore and is really mad about it.
It's a step in the right direction.. the next thing we need is free PvP talents and an easier way to switch classes and then WoW could finally be a PvP game. Not that I'd want that, but it would be nice to have fair and balanced pvp for once.

[Saberstrike]

MMOs and PvP don't mush, you either have a good mmo or a good PvP game. The same systems for both can't work because mmo PvE is always designed around bloated boss HP AND bloated boss damage inflating player damage, healing or defenses to unreasonable levels, because those numbers and abilities are designed & tuned around fighting targets that don't play by the same rules as players. The true way to keep PvP and PvE good in the same game is to separate them in some way; So, while I agree that to some degree it -is- a failure of game design, it is not one that can be easily solved without also fundamentally changing how WoW's PvE works; And we all know that's just not going to happen. Templates were a band-aid, but if you want that gone -- no one's stopping you from going out and doing broken isles world pvp quests. Spend 2 hours fighting a disc priest and tell me that's much better.

The real reason PvP sucks is because WoW as a game attracts loot-whores who just play to increase their numbers, rather than for the satisfaction of working as a team to accomplish an objective. Blizz know this and design their game to operate as a carrot on a stick, so ye average pve player with said mentality will see no benefit or reason to get good in PvP that gives worse rewards than just afking in LFR for 30 minutes. Ideally, MMO PvP should give meaningful, cool rewards AND be a part of the game that rewards people for accomplishing objectives as a team out in the world. But again, we can't have that because PvE people will whine and complain that they're forced to PvP.; + after Ashran I doubt they'd ever be brave enough to make anything of such scale, knowing how much that failed.

tl;dr: low impact of gear on pvp fights is a good thing, just needs to be tuned and handled better.

[gobio]

You may have a valid point somewhat, but why disrespect chess and make a logical mess out of yourself?

When you compare WOW to chess, you specifically stated "time spent" and ignore "skills", because you know there is skill in chess.
But right in the same post you slide to skill (in your fictional "nature" and "reality"), conveniently ignore effort and luck in this game.

In order to diss this game, you slide left and right, conflicting with yourself, disrespecting chess player for no reason, making a fool out of yourself in the meantime, is this even worth it?

There are so many aspect of "reality", don't cherry pick it for your ideal game. How about I am rich in reality, so I can kill you in one hit? PAY TO WIN for WOW NOW to match "reality".

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

I just want my double damage trinkets back. I'd also like to people to wear pve gear for more damage in battleground but let gear get normalized in arena.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

If you think it's more important to have rpg elements instead of balanced competitive content then go play classic. In 2018 esports is king.

[Kreeshak]

You are right. However I don't understand why you keep trying to change WoW when they clearly have made their wrong decision that killed their PVP, and not join one of the plenty games that what you, rightly, describe is a reality?

Get over WoW, and start having fun again. It is THAT simple.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

MMOs and PvP don't mush, you either have a good mmo or a good PvP game. The same systems for both can't work because mmo PvE is always designed around bloated boss HP AND bloated boss damage inflating player damage, healing or defenses to unreasonable levels, because those numbers and abilities are designed & tuned around fighting targets that don't play by the same rules as players. The true way to keep PvP and PvE good in the same game is to separate them in some way; So, while I agree that to some degree it -is- a failure of game design, it is not one that can be easily solved without also fundamentally changing how WoW's PvE works; And we all know that's just not going to happen. Templates were a band-aid, but if you want that gone -- no one's stopping you from going out and doing broken isles world pvp quests. Spend 2 hours fighting a disc priest and tell me that's much better.

The real reason PvP sucks is because WoW as a game attracts loot-whores who just play to increase their numbers, rather than for the satisfaction of working as a team to accomplish an objective. Blizz know this and design their game to operate as a carrot on a stick, so ye average pve player with said mentality will see no benefit or reason to get good in PvP that gives worse rewards than just afking in LFR for 30 minutes. Ideally, MMO PvP should give meaningful, cool rewards AND be a part of the game that rewards people for accomplishing objectives as a team out in the world. But again, we can't have that because PvE people will whine and complain that they're forced to PvP.; + after Ashran I doubt they'd ever be brave enough to make anything of such scale, knowing how much that failed.

tl;dr: low impact of gear on pvp fights is a good thing, just needs to be tuned and handled better.

You can separate them and have spells do different things depending on the activity your doing.

The reason it sucks is because blizzard is incompetent and keeps making the same fucking mistakes over and over again. They recreated early mop warlocks and they gave melee all the utility in the fucking world.

[Traveler Voltin]

sounds like someone wants to go back to 1 shotting people.

[Daedius]

PvP in RPGs generally sucks...

[Calfredd]

Bring back vanilla honor pvp hierachy system - the single best iteration of wow and the moment wow approached the pinnacle of mankinds immortal artworks

So account share grinds to High Warlord and the people who deny participating in that grind?

[Kreeshak]

It was there a huge difference between to players but now it's garbage. In cata I used a high warlord set on my hunter and killed multiple at once in battlegrounds cause it was fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYcIU_EjjBg

God forbid you dared to have fun in a game. To the fire! (sarcasm)

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How would you feel if the Patriots beat the Eagles only because they had better uniforms that helped them run faster (better gear basically). Would you still consider them the "better" team? Would you consider the game "valid" or "fair?" Would you call them "champions?"

Yes, yes and yes.

As long as the boutiques or the shops that provided those uniforms, didn't discriminate one over another.

[Cyanu]

Is this an RPG or isn't it?

Blizzard doesn't seem to be entirely sure.

GEAR SHOULD MATTER IN PVP

If you want to play chess, play chess - for everyone else, the players that work harder deserve better better gear, better stats, and increased power in PVP.

That doesn't mean make everything gear dependent - NO, there is such a thing as a balance, but if you want to motivate players to PLAY your game, you need to make it worthwhile to farm the gear.

IN NATURE, THE MAN THAT HAD THE MOST SKILL AQUIRED MORE FOOD AND GOT MORE POWERFUL, THE ALPHA MALE IS STRONGER BECAUSE OF THE FOOD (GEAR) THAT HE HAS BULKED WITH AS WELL AS HIS SKILLS.

Reflect reality in your game or see it die even more.

i say let it die! better dead than red yeah? /s

there are no rules about how PvP should be, there are many designs that could lead to an experience enjoyable for many players as long as they're well executed and followed through consistently

PvP has it's flaws but that gear doesn't really matter might not even be among them, it's subjective, note that customization or stat preferences could be offered regardless of gear, the only thing that gear offers is a treat to no lifers and ganking assholes to feel superior against other people's alts and casuals

as for your 'alpha male' comparison... i have trouble imagining that mythical being whining in video game forums about pvp

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

God forbid you dared to have fun in a game. To the fire! (sarcasm)

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Yes, yes and yes.

As long as the boutiques or the shops that provided those uniforms, didn't discriminate one over another.

There nothing wrong with that and back than you could have fun playing arcane or some other brainless spec but there was enough meat to keep everyone happy. Now it's just mindless. I don't care if certain specs are easier for bigger but I want them to have depth for more experienced players as well current won't wow doesn't have that.