Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Combatbutler]

Honestly I don't understand why Horde players or Blizzard don't want to add High Elves to the Alliance as playable. I would think it would make for prime story material and a clear rivalry within the player base. There are Blood Elf players that would love to see Alliance High Elves specifically so the can kill them in PvP. Orcs vs Humans is the old rivalry. But with the Horde's player population dominated by Blood Elves (and the Alliance not having any Trolls) the most logical rival to put in are High Elves (Night Elves don't work for this....they are too distant to become real rivals).

Why do you make the assumption that only horde players don't want this to happen?

[Kithelle]

Weekly reminder that High Elves will never happen.

I got stuff to do.

Wouldn't be the first time we thought something that wouldn't happen happened...

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Honestly I don't understand why Horde players or Blizzard don't want to add High Elves to the Alliance as playable. I would think it would make for prime story material and a clear rivalry within the player base. There are Blood Elf players that would love to see Alliance High Elves specifically so the can kill them in PvP. Orcs vs Humans is the old rivalry. But with the Horde's player population dominated by Blood Elves (and the Alliance not having any Trolls) the most logical rival to put in are High Elves (Night Elves don't work for this....they are too distant to become real rivals).

Because if they did that, it would likely mean the death of the Horde bias from Blizzard, so obviously selfish people don't want it to happen.

Yet they want San'layn and Vampyrs (Which are Humans) it's a double standard with them. They make up stupid reasons and even blame the Alliance for Sylvanas being a evil cunt...they just think the world revolves around them.

[Deleted]

Why do you make the assumption that only horde players don't want this to happen?

Maybe because they are probably more willing to identify with Blood Elves, and thus less accepting idea of portraying them in more ambivalent way again. Although if so - they are rather harming their favorite race.

And maybe because they were just always seem to be majority of loudly opposing here.

[Combatbutler]

Maybe because they are probably more willing to identify with Blood Elves, and thus less accepting idea of portraying them in more ambivalent way again. Although if so - they are rather harming their favorite race.

And maybe because they were just always seem to be majority of loudly opposing here.

I'd go with it is just easy to stick it just on one side of the many involved parties here in order to ignore the real possibility that there are quite a few Alliance players out there, people who play both factions and Horde players who don't like the idea.

Fact is there are many different "factions" involved in this matter.

[Deleted]

Well, I would probably prefer Blood Elf myself. Only if they were made Blood Elves again. So my reasoning seems to be a little unconventional here to.

[FlubberPuddy]

I'd go with it is just easy to stick it just on one side of the many involved parties here in order to ignore the real possibility that there are quite a few Alliance players out there, people who play both factions and Horde players who don't like the idea.

Fact is there are many different "factions" involved in this matter.

I mean if you want to look at it that way, then there's tons of players wanting High Elves from both Horde and Alliance as well. It goes both ways, except that the insane amount of discussion and polls and evidence all point to High Elves being the most popular request for many years. And still they continue to be the most popular request, it's not like Ion's response just killed the desire for them outright.

Look at this recent poll here: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...orite-Elf-race

High Elves in 3rd just after Blood and Night elves. I use it as a trend, not a definitive poll. And from all the other polls that are about ARs or just before ARs were about additional playable races. Any one with High Elves had it either as the top or near top winner.

You don't keep that level of popularity if it was only one-sided. I'd wager to guess more people would be happier, from both sides, to see High Elves added rather than not.

Also MMO-C is a stickler were wanting for the exotic/unique/completely different stuffs it's a hotbed for most of these kinds of posters. Yet when polls for High Elves occur here they're even at the top or near top.

People can say High Elves are boring ass shit, vanilla, don't-bring-anything-new, elves but people still want em for Alliance regardless. Both Horde and Alliance players. I'm pretty sure it's the fact that they are pretty vanilla is what is interesting about em, being "Classic" and all.

This is probably why the most picked race choices on Alliance are Humans and Night Elves, and for Horde it's Blood Elves. Most people probably prefer to play the game with what they find familiar.

[Ithekro]

Why do you make the assumption that only horde players don't want this to happen?

I would assume more Horde players that are against the idea would be more vocal about it than any Alliance players that are against the idea, as that seems to be the case for much of this thread, thus a logical, if limited sample, deduction.

[Obelisk Kai]

100% pure Grade A speculation. Remember who was the final boss of WoD? Did we fight Grom in a a raid battle? No? Things change. What's true today in a subjective field may not hold true tomorrow. This is something you fail to comprehend.

Oh I comprehend it alright. It's the ultimate and sole pro High Elf argument, that Blizzard can change their minds if they want to. And that the pro High Elf community wants to 'help' them to this point by ignoring all gameplay and lore reasons stated as to why it's a terrible idea and to just continually ask for it. The idea seems to be to wear down Blizzard's resistance so that all the reasons they have against playable High Elves and which the pro High Elf community pretend don't matter will be ignored by Blizzard.
Besides, I am on much firmer ground in saying it won't happen because the developers have not only said it won't happen, but they provided their rationale as to why it won't happen. You are the one whose position is weak because you literally only have a prayer in this matter, an appeal to God (the writers and developers) to change the world (of Warcraft) as it is now.

None of this followed from my objection of your original statement. Is this like the type version of liking hearing yourself talk? What did any of this have to do with understanding and acceptance? You asserted if you understand then you'll accept their "compromise" ... that just isn't true because in reality you can understand something and not agree with them. Going into further explanation of their reason isn't relevant to what I stated.

You stated you couldn't accept the compromise. My response was that not everyone was going to be pleased by the compromise and that you are one of those who wasn't.

In other words, you can't please everyone.

I have told you and others in this topic, I don't care if High Elves become playable ... the fact you keep asserting I am "driven" by it is honestly insulting how little you have paid attention.

If you come to the High Elf discussion and espouse pro High Elf viewpoints, you are a pro High Elfer no matter how you want to label yourself. If you don't care, as you stated, then you have no stake in this debate and are seemingly arguing for the sake of it.

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I could force myself a bit more and give you the big extended response that you want but, m8, that's just fucking ad nauseum, if you can't still see in what you fail, i'm not going to argue you more than is needed.

I answered you with text walls before, if you don't taked any of them as anything remotely factuable, you just seem useless to argue against.

Just take a mirror and look at yourself, i'm just going to answer what it's necessary, not pleasing your desire of wall texts to having a maleable and confusing discussion.

PD: Nobody expected an answer like 'yes, they are going to be introduced next patch', most of us expected something on the lines that they told to us, not an 'the horde is there for you' or complete misunderstanding and non factual arguing, if you fail on understanding that is not my problem, is yours, good luck with that.

It's just nonsensical to answer those type of comments my dude, just let it rot apart.

This passage is richly ironic.

I have years of statements by Blizzard addressing the topic of playable High Elves, either in terms of lore or in terms of gameplay, a feast of evidence that Blood Elves are High Elves and that Blizzard doesn't want to make the sad remnant of traitorous High Elves on the Alliance playble...evidence up to and including the game director twice stating it isn't happening, and you expect me to critique the apparent weaknesses of my position when compared to your own?

Get a grip.

Your entire position is predicated on a prayer that Blizzard will change their minds. You have literally nothing back you up except that one solitary hope. When the day comes that Blizzard does change their mind, you are welcome to crow as much as you want. But until then, the pro High Elf community hasn't a single shred of evidence in game, in lore or from the developers that this is even remotely possible.

And if you are still upset at the whole 'the horde is waiting for you' line, don't be. That was tough love. How many players have spent YEARS waiting for High Elves on the Alliance, ignoring the fact that High Elves are already available? How many are prepared to spend years more waiting when their reward is going to be a long, sad feeling of deflation when Blizzard posts WoW is going into maintenance mode and no further updates are planned.

They were blunt. Clearly, given the level of denial that has crept back into the pro High Elf community since the Q and A they weren't blunt enough. Hopefully they helped a large portion of players out their who might have been still waiting understand that this is never going to be a thing and that those players can now move in WoW or outside of WoW.

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No, I'M THE BLOOD ELF FANBOY, and i understand why people want the alliance high elves to be playable, and i find it totally plausible and with backup, Obelisk Kai is just someone who thinks that HE is stealing something from the horde or something game breaking, and that is not true. And if it is, i want PROOF, and he gave NOONE at this point, not him, not nobody.

Copying the most popular race of one faction to the other without alteration so that the other faction has the opportunity to play that race without having to pick the original faction would be the most egregious breach of the faction wall and would render the entire concept almost meaningless.

There are only two ways to provide proof...asking the opinion of God aka the Developers to see what they think or actually giving High Elves to the Alliance and checking the results.

You've made clear that even word of God isn't enough to satisfy you so the only other way to give you proof is to actually give you what you want to see if it inflicts the damage the rest of fear it would.

That isn't going to happen. So you'll just have to do what everyone else does and accept that the opinion of the developer's, who have a holistic view of the game and all it's part, trumps the unreasonable demand of a fan with an agenda.

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Honestly I don't understand why Horde players or Blizzard don't want to add High Elves to the Alliance as playable. I would think it would make for prime story material and a clear rivalry within the player base. There are Blood Elf players that would love to see Alliance High Elves specifically so the can kill them in PvP. Orcs vs Humans is the old rivalry. But with the Horde's player population dominated by Blood Elves (and the Alliance not having any Trolls) the most logical rival to put in are High Elves (Night Elves don't work for this....they are too distant to become real rivals).

Ithekro it has been told you several times why it isn't going to happen.

The Blood Elves are the High Elves. They are biologically and thematically identical. As a result, the Blood/High Elf theme is now something that is now a unique part of the Horde experience. High Elves, because they are identical to Blood Elves, would offer the same experience. It would be like the Alliance having access to a group of Mulgore Tauren.

Despite the attempts at the beginning of this thread, it is impossible to create a High Elf that is distinguishable from a Blood Elf that the pro High Elf community would accept.

As for the High Elves being a source of some great pvp potential, we don't care. Firstly because the majority of Horde players would want to prioritize the integrity of our faction over the meagre story potential you describe. Secondly because we just got a group of Alliance Elves diametrically opposed to the Blood Elves with whom we have a genuine beef. The Void Elves are clear rivals. I will enjoy killing Void Elf traitors in PVP. As the High Elves embrace the light, the Void Elves embrace the shadow.

There is a genuine dichotomy there. One we would not have with a copy paste of the Horde's most popular race...one that would actually undermine Void Elves as the true opposition of the Blood Elves within the Alliance.

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Last time i remember lead designers word is worth a bit more than fansite and random neckbeard. And yes, you guys are in denial over it.

Did he actually argue that having Perculia and Redshirt guy in his corner means something?

Absolute nonsense. Fans are entitled to their opinions but in the end are just fans, same as you and me.

[Darththeo]

Oh I comprehend it alright. It's the ultimate and sole pro High Elf argument, that Blizzard can change their minds if they want to. And that the pro High Elf community wants to 'help' them to this point by ignoring all gameplay and lore reasons stated as to why it's a terrible idea and to just continually ask for it. The idea seems to be to wear down Blizzard's resistance so that all the reasons they have against playable High Elves and which the pro High Elf community pretend don't matter will be ignored by Blizzard.
Besides, I am on much firmer ground in saying it won't happen because the developers have not only said it won't happen, but they provided their rationale as to why it won't happen. You are the one whose position is weak because you literally only have a prayer in this matter, an appeal to God (the writers and developers) to change the world (of Warcraft) as it is now.

They provided rationale to why it won't happen at this time, you can't say it won't happen ever. Even the developers left that door open.

You stated you couldn't accept the compromise. My response was that not everyone was going to be pleased by the compromise and that you are one of those who wasn't.

In other words, you can't please everyone.

I stated that understanding doesn't mean acceptance of something ... please don't change my argument. And your response was still just explaining the compromise, it doesn't address what I said.

If you come to the High Elf discussion and espouse pro High Elf viewpoints, you are a pro High Elfer no matter how you want to label yourself. If you don't care, as you stated, then you have no stake in this debate and are seemingly arguing for the sake of it.

Logic not found. You do know there are things like Devil's Advocates right? You do know there are people who are bothered by your behavior toward Pro-Helfers? Seriously, just because you can't understand something doesn't make your assertion correct. There are poor arguments on both sides, but the Pro-Helfers behavior is better than the Anti-Helfers.

[Obelisk Kai]

They provided rationale to why it won't happen at this time, you can't say it won't happen ever. Even the developers left that door open.

The developers ended with a standard platitude which the pro High Elf community has latched onto in desperation. More important was the rationale they gave for denying High Elves, that they are already playable.

For Blizzard to allow playable High Elves they would have do a complete one hundred and eighty degree turn not on playable High Elves, but on the value of the faction split as the defining foundation of the game.

I stated that understanding doesn't mean acceptance of something ... please don't change my argument. And your response was still just explaining the compromise, it doesn't address what I said.

Your original quote.

This just doesn't follow. You can understand the reasons, but also could see Void elves not as a compromise. You do know you can understand someone's reasons and not accept them right as sound or valid right?

A point of view that is entirely personal. You PERSONALLY believe that it is not a compromise. My explanation is to show that you are incorrect, that it IS a compromise, merely one you reject.

Logic not found. You do know there are things like Devil's Advocates right? You do know there are people who are bothered by your behavior toward Pro-Helfers? Seriously, just because you can't understand something doesn't make your assertion correct. There are poor arguments on both sides, but the Pro-Helfers behavior is better than the Anti-Helfers.

Your assertion that the pro High Elf community is better behaved than the Anti is demonstrably false though. The worst thing that has been done in this debate has been the actions of some on the High Elf discord to mobilize mass reporting of posters on the official forums in an attempt to get them banned.

There is nothing more heinous than an attempt to silence the opposition through such under handed means.

Whilst you will of course argue that that was only some pro High Elf posters, you yourself turned this into a competition between the two sides in totality by saying one side was better than the other...ignoring that members of the pro High Elf side have committed the worst possible offense in terms of debating.

[FlubberPuddy]

Did he actually argue that having Perculia and Redshirt guy in his corner means something?

Absolute nonsense. Fans are entitled to their opinions but in the end are just fans, same as you and me.

Did Obelisk just try talking smack about my points while having me on ignore?

Absolute man-child behavior.

We can rest assured, as stated previously, that there's no longer any "danger" of Alliance getting blue/purple elves the next time around elves get added to the Alliance. That will be a great day indeed seeing as Blizzard likes to keep things visually distinct.

[Aldo Hawk]

@Obelisk Kai So you say that Ion Hazzikostas is a god and is opinion is fact because of that, and then say that we are all just fans but you are on Ion's side so you are right just by that... pathetic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact

A fact is a statement that is consistent with reality or can be proven with evidence. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability <---- (Careful with that).

While is true that Ion is kind of a god in the game, it doesn't change the fact that he is a human, so your rationale is weak just by that, he was not the first and will not be the last main director, and what he said was his opinion and not verified facts, their rationale is not truth by default, is just that simple, i suggest you to change your mind on that.

It's a nonsense that you try to focus on opinions and twist them to making them facts by doing mental gymnastics.

You start lying when you say that you 'understand' (but avoided the answer about objectivity totally, pretty convenient) that the only solid argument that we have is that developers can change their minds. Maybe you say that because that possibility bothers you? Or surely it is.

But the best part is you answering me that you have years of Blizzard's statements, the last time you gave me one it were an interview from late 2005 in where you twisted it saying that HE and BE were used as something interchangable, when in that interview the usage of HE and BE were used to refer to the Silvermoon society before and after the scourge invasion, if you have that much of Blizzard's statements from over the years that support the fact that HE aren't possible, show it, just try to be honest with that not like usual.

And i'm not going to comment very fondly on the whole 'all you got is praying' because at this point it just seems that you are projecting yourself in others (remember devs are gods and i am in their side? check that).

And i'm just going to finish pointing your dishonesty by saying that HE would be a copy without alteration, you don't have more to backup that than i have by just saying that playable races always get modified when added, even Mag'har and Dark Iron are getting tweaked, and they could have been just copy pastes, what do you have to backup that?.

[Ithekro]

Ithekro it has been told you several times why it isn't going to happen.

The Blood Elves are the High Elves. They are biologically and thematically identical. As a result, the Blood/High Elf theme is now something that is now a unique part of the Horde experience. High Elves, because they are identical to Blood Elves, would offer the same experience. It would be like the Alliance having access to a group of Mulgore Tauren.

Despite the attempts at the beginning of this thread, it is impossible to create a High Elf that is distinguishable from a Blood Elf that the pro High Elf community would accept.

As for the High Elves being a source of some great pvp potential, we don't care. Firstly because the majority of Horde players would want to prioritize the integrity of our faction over the meagre story potential you describe. Secondly because we just got a group of Alliance Elves diametrically opposed to the Blood Elves with whom we have a genuine beef. The Void Elves are clear rivals. I will enjoy killing Void Elf traitors in PVP. As the High Elves embrace the light, the Void Elves embrace the shadow.

There is a genuine dichotomy there. One we would not have with a copy paste of the Horde's most popular race...one that would actually undermine Void Elves as the true opposition of the Blood Elves within the Alliance.

Despite what you say, there are High Elves, in the Alliance, that are not Blood Elves. That is fact. They exist therefore the argument that they are 100% total Horde experience is entirely false, because they still exist in the Alliance. They might be 10% of the total High Elf/Blood Elf/Void Elf population, but they are there.

Biology and thematically your point holds no ground. If there were no High Elves in the Alliance, sure they would work, but they are there. High Elves are just another group that happens to already be in the Alliance in one way or another. They've been their for well over a decade (since WoW Beta in 2004 at the very least). Longer than the Blood Elves have been in the Horde. So you can't tell me that it is a unique Horde experience, because that is blatantly false. If that was true, the arguments you have made would have merit. But they are not true, and have never been true, and you know that. The pro High Elf groups have been attempting to appease the anti High Elf groups by coming up with ways to make the High Elves different than Blood Elves. That is entirely for the sake of the Horde players, because them being distinguishable visually does not actually need to be a thing. Its is being attempted as a compromise when one isn't needed. And before you go off on the Void Elf tangent again, no, that's not a compromise. That's a new flavor of elf to fit a different theme, and that is all it will ever be.


A similar argument can be made for Mulgore Tauren if the plot twist of the Grimtotem tribe had remained in the Alliance (rather than betray everyone). There are routes for groups to enter the opposing sides. Model/race does not need to be a factor of the faction wall. That is too simplistic and not realistic even within a fantasy setting given that pretty much every faction has other factions of their own species they need to kill somewhere in the world. Humans kill a lot of humans. Orcs kill a lot of orcs. Trolls kill a lot of trolls, yet Zandalari are joining the Horde. Dwarves kill a lot of dwarves, and yet the Dark Iron are joining the Alliance as an Allied Race (it use to make sense that they might join the Horde as an "enemy of my enemy" group, since they fought both the Alliance and the Dark Horde, both of which Thrall's Horde was against). With the idea of Lightbound Orcs, there is the possibility of lightforged brown Orcs joining the Alliance (depending on how that story is spin for the Alliance, if they ever do anything with that plot after the Horde's unlock quest chain).


The High Elves are in the Alliance. This is a fact. No amount of foot stomping or denial will erase that. Only plot development will change that. That is why the point remains for the pro High Elves as playable remains a thing. They are there. The arguments made against them are not sustainable after the Allied Race system was implemented. The faction wall argument is irrelevant because they are already in the Alliance on Live, therefore no one is crossing said line. The model argument is too simplistic an argument. Using it paints the picture that Blizzard has no respect for their player's intelligence. A player should be able to figure out the other elf out their trying to kill them is an enemy even if it looks like them....just like any random human npc that is trying to kill my warlock. They look no different from my character aside from gear, and sometimes not even then. Its the same model. An Alliance high elf npc that is casing a frost bolt at your Blood Elf would be no different than a player High Elf mage casting frost bolt at your Blood Elf. The player would be jumping a lot more, but so do the new Advanced A.I. bots Blizzard is introducing in BfA. I can walk into Boralas right now and see tons of humans of all model types. Some will attack me. If they happen to be the older Stormwind type model, the only way for me to tell it will attack me it that its name is in red....just like any other mob or player in the world. So what difference does it make to the Horde if the Alliance has High Elves? Playable or not, they will still try to attack you outside a sanctuary zone or plot shielded area (in fact you might have better luck with an Alliance player High Elf, because they probably won't have War Mode on anyway).

[Rydanis]

Honestly I don't understand why Horde players or Blizzard don't want to add High Elves to the Alliance as playable. I would think it would make for prime story material and a clear rivalry within the player base. There are Blood Elf players that would love to see Alliance High Elves specifically so the can kill them in PvP. Orcs vs Humans is the old rivalry. But with the Horde's player population dominated by Blood Elves (and the Alliance not having any Trolls) the most logical rival to put in are High Elves (Night Elves don't work for this....they are too distant to become real rivals).

Well, from a belf player's perspective, I can tell you that Void Elves already makes me sad for the race I've been playing since BC. We've been asked for things like new, non-stupid facial hair and the removal of duckface for so, so long, and while thankfully we've gotten the latter, only Void Elves get the former. If High Elves were to be added, with all these awesome tribal tattoos, buff looks, feathers in their hair, why wouldn't I be annoyed? Look, more awesome customization for our model except oh, no, if you want to have that customization on your belf model you'd best be ready to abandon your story since BC, your guild, your faction, etc. Already we've been shown that we can be passed over for options many of us were dying to have, only to give them to the opposite faction. If this happened with some feature you cared about this much, you'd be pretty upset too.

On Alliance side, since Void Elves were introduces, I'd say that more than half the characters I run into are Void Elves. For one thing, I hate seeing a model I associate with Horde on Alliance, just as much as I hate seeing Nightborne on Horde. The idea that faction lines are undermined by these kind of races is entirely true, and despite some of you not much caring about faction identity, you don't speak for the entire playerbase. Some of us like how the Alliance and Horde look. Some of us don't want to trade races across faction.

It's called cost of opportunity. The implementation of something like a High Elf means that that customization is now barred to Blood Elves. We've already seen this with Void Elves, and I have to wonder if that race didn't exist if we'd maybe get some of those looks in the future. But now? Now we can't. There's a cost in adding High Elves as an Allied race in that it keeps the Alliance from getting something way more original. If it came down to High Elves vs. Sethrak, I'd be pissed if we got High Elves.

Yet another issue is the idea that there would ever be a "belf but better" race. Yes, I'm fully aware that better is subjective. I'm fully aware that some people would not see them as better. But as it is now, Blood Elves have looks that are low poly compared to Void Elves and so they look older already, and this problem would only get worse if High Elves were added. Further, Blood Elves are in a faction where NONE of the faction's identity matches with their cultural aesthetic, whereas Alliance gets very elegant looks that would entirely match Thalassian elves. This is especially true come BfA, where the Warfront sets are gorgeous, lovingly crafted, beautiful things, and the Horde gets, you guessed it, more spikes. So no, I don't want to see an improved, highly customized belf model sporting some of the most gorgeous armor I've ever seen, riding around on a beautiful updated horse. That IS the culture of Blood Elves. That IS their history.

Oh, and as an Allied race? You can bet they'd get to start at higher levels and have heritage armor. Great. A Thalassian heritage set. Only for High Elves. Cool. That would make two belf-looking races with leveling perks and race-specific armor. I suppose us belf players can stick with BC-quality belf-themed models for transmog, if we want race-based armor. Sure, that seems totally fair to us.

So this is why I, personally, don't want High Elves added. It's stepping on toes, it's insulting to the lore, it's an old, dead-end race. You have Alleria, you have her followers, including all those High Elves coming to the Rift to learn about the Void. Those ARE the ones that never left the Alliance. They ARE playable. So if you care about the lore, there. You have those exact High Elves. If you're only in this for the skin color and eyes, you may want to take a step back and evaluate exactly what you're asking for and how it would harm other players.

You can call me whatever names you want, I don't care. Think this is jealous and petty? Whatever. But the fact is, you can't dictate how these ideas make myself and many other Horde players feel, just as we can't tell you to care less about what you want. The people arguing on the other side from you are not robots, we play this game too, and our opinions on this game are worth exactly as much as yours. How we feel about races added and the future of the game are worth exactly as much as yours. Our desire to see High Elves remain unplayable is worth EXACTLY as much as your desire for them to be playable. And yes, we have real reasons for how we feel, just as you have real reasons for how you feel.

[Darththeo]

The developers ended with a standard platitude which the pro High Elf community has latched onto in desperation. More important was the rationale they gave for denying High Elves, that they are already playable.

For Blizzard to allow playable High Elves they would have do a complete one hundred and eighty degree turn not on playable High Elves, but on the value of the faction split as the defining foundation of the game.

Even without the ****ing platitude, basic English tells you they left the door open and the fact the game evolves over time leaves the door open. The people who have "latched" onto the platitude isn't the Pro-Helfers ... it's your side "It's just a platitude!"

A point of view that is entirely personal. You PERSONALLY believe that it is not a compromise. My explanation is to show that you are incorrect, that it IS a compromise, merely one you reject.

Did you even read my original quote? You post it but clearly didn't read. Read it again. Do you know how I know you haven't read it? YOU ARE LITERALLY NOW REPEATING MY POINT as proof I was wrong. I didn't say anything about it BEING a compromise ... I stated about SEEING IT as one. Do you not know the difference?

And then basically, you proved how it wasn't a compromise in your explanation ... so I don't see why you bothered.

Your assertion that the pro High Elf community is better behaved than the Anti is demonstrably false though. The worst thing that has been done in this debate has been the actions of some on the High Elf discord to mobilize mass reporting of posters on the official forums in an attempt to get them banned.

There is nothing more heinous than an attempt to silence the opposition through such under handed means.

Whilst you will of course argue that that was only some pro High Elf posters, you yourself turned this into a competition between the two sides in totality by saying one side was better than the other...ignoring that members of the pro High Elf side have committed the worst possible offense in terms of debating.

Here is the thing, the Pro-Helfers are annoying ... the Anti-Helfers feel the need to argue with them ... which is worse? I rather an annoying group than a person that feels the need to tell said group they are wrong when they aren't doing anything beyond stating what they want.

What you don't get to do EVER is assert why I am making my argument and state I am wrong in why I do what I do. You don't get to dictate what I am because it doesn't fit your little world view. Which, FYI, is literally the worst possible offense in debating ... so thank you for proving yourself wrong.

[Tatzi]

I don't know why this thread is still going.

Ion said it's not happening. That is a good enough reason.

Maybe I'm just not involved as much as the rest of you, but seriously. Everyone in here needs to take a break.

[FlubberPuddy]

Well, from a belf player's perspective, I can tell you that Void Elves already makes me sad for the race I've been playing since BC. We've been asked for things like new, non-stupid facial hair and the removal of duckface for so, so long, and while thankfully we've gotten the latter, only Void Elves get the former. If High Elves were to be added, with all these awesome tribal tattoos, buff looks, feathers in their hair, why wouldn't I be annoyed? Look, more awesome customization for our model except oh, no, if you want to have that customization on your belf model you'd best be ready to abandon your story since BC, your guild, your faction, etc. Already we've been shown that we can be passed over for options many of us were dying to have, only to give them to the opposite faction. If this happened with some feature you cared about this much, you'd be pretty upset too.

It's a fallacy to think Blood Elves would get customization like warpaints/tribal tattoos, and feathers in their hair. That's not their aesthetic. The fact you think they should have just means you yourself don't understand what the Blood Elf aesthetic is, even after Ion mentioned it.

On Alliance side, since Void Elves were introduces, I'd say that more than half the characters I run into are Void Elves. For one thing, I hate seeing a model I associate with Horde on Alliance, just as much as I hate seeing Nightborne on Horde. The idea that faction lines are undermined by these kind of races is entirely true, and despite some of you not much caring about faction identity, you don't speak for the entire playerbase. Some of us like how the Alliance and Horde look. Some of us don't want to trade races across faction.

Well get ready for more of it Blizzard are intentionally giving aesthetics that happen to be on one side of the faction to the other in order to make sure there is a balance between themes on both factions. Long gone are the days of "tough/ugly chars only" on Horde and "pretty/cute races" on Alliance. They're intentionally giving those concepts to the other side to shore up where they are lacking.

It's called cost of opportunity. The implementation of something like a High Elf means that that customization is now barred to Blood Elves. We've already seen this with Void Elves, and I have to wonder if that race didn't exist if we'd maybe get some of those looks in the future. But now? Now we can't. There's a cost in adding High Elves as an Allied race in that it keeps the Alliance from getting something way more original. If it came down to High Elves vs. Sethrak, I'd be pissed if we got High Elves.

Do you realize that the reason Blood Elves got their lip fixes, and expanded eyes is because Void Elves were being worked on as an Allied Race and the models are the same? O_o This is seen with the Orcs as well, Blizzard stated they knew they wanted Orcs to have a straight back option (since this is both applied to original and mag'har orcs), you can easily deduce that the reason original Orcs are getting straight back option is because it's applied to and being worked on because of the mag'har since literally both these orcs also share the same model.

Blood Elves even got a fix to their male bow casting animation, no more broken back. A fix that is implemented onto Void Elves as well. So actually it is better for their to be races like this because it allows Blizzard to go back and update the OG models as well. Presumably the same would occur if High Elves were added. Some even mentioned why not give Blood Elves whatever new model they come up with and have High Elves use the old model, since then you wouldn't have to feel like "oh they gave High Elves a brand spankin new model" as you currently seem to convey.

Yet another issue is the idea that there would ever be a "belf but better" race. Yes, I'm fully aware that better is subjective. I'm fully aware that some people would not see them as better. But as it is now, Blood Elves have looks that are low poly compared to Void Elves and so they look older already, and this problem would only get worse if High Elves were added. Further, Blood Elves are in a faction where NONE of the faction's identity matches with their cultural aesthetic, whereas Alliance gets very elegant looks that would entirely match Thalassian elves. This is especially true come BfA, where the Warfront sets are gorgeous, lovingly crafted, beautiful things, and the Horde gets, you guessed it, more spikes. So no, I don't want to see an improved, highly customized belf model sporting some of the most gorgeous armor I've ever seen, riding around on a beautiful updated horse. That IS the culture of Blood Elves. That IS their history.

Seems like you have an issue with the general Horde aesthetic. We apparently have a solution to that based on Ion's response: The Alliance are waiting for you. See it works both ways.

So this is why I, personally, don't want High Elves added. It's stepping on toes, it's insulting to the lore, it's an old, dead-end race. You have Alleria, you have her followers, including all those High Elves coming to the Rift to learn about the Void. Those ARE the ones that never left the Alliance. They ARE playable. So if you care about the lore, there. You have those exact High Elves. If you're only in this for the skin color and eyes, you may want to take a step back and evaluate exactly what you're asking for and how it would harm other players.

This shows some extra level of ignorance. When people speak about wanting High Elves on Alliance, they're talking about the Silver Covenant, Highvale, etc. Not stuck up, bitchy Silvermoon Elves. Y'all can keep those

You can call me whatever names you want, I don't care. Think this is jealous and petty? Whatever. But the fact is, you can't dictate how these ideas make myself and many other Horde players feel, just as we can't tell you to care less about what you want. The people arguing on the other side from you are not robots, we play this game too, and our opinions on this game are worth exactly as much as yours. How we feel about races added and the future of the game are worth exactly as much as yours. Our desire to see High Elves remain unplayable is worth EXACTLY as much as your desire for them to be playable. And yes, we have real reasons for how we feel, just as you have real reasons for how you feel.

You sound extremely jealous and petty yeah, but that's ok. People felt jealous and about many things in the game, lfr, "welfare epics" "leggos," transmog, account bound honor, etc.

And it isn't like there aren't other Horde players that are okay with High Elves being added to Alliance. Most people don't feel the need to keep iterating the same points they've already stated.

But every so often there are people that enter into a conversation without knowing all the hub bub and comment, so clarifications are given.

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I don't know why this thread is still going.

Ion said it's not happening. That is a good enough reason.

Maybe I'm just not involved as much as the rest of you, but seriously. Everyone in here needs to take a break.

Oh, are you bothered by players talking about High Elves in a High Elf discussion thread? This thread is going because people are still discussing High Elves, what's not to get?

Is there some reason people should stop talking about them in a thread dedicated to them?

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Here is the thing, the Pro-Helfers are annoying ... the Anti-Helfers feel the need to argue with them ... which is worse? I rather an annoying group than a person that feels the need to tell said group they are wrong when they aren't doing anything beyond stating what they want.

What you don't get to do EVER is assert why I am making my argument and state I am wrong in why I do what I do. You don't get to dictate what I am because it doesn't fit your little world view. Which, FYI, is literally the worst possible offense in debating ... so thank you for proving yourself wrong.

I know it probably doesn't matter to you personally but Anti-helf trolls replaced a whole bunch of high elf fan art that was sent to Chris Robinson in a tweet (admittedly because the pro-helf peeps didn't set permissions) with a bunch of anti high elf images (trolls killing elves etc).

Then there was another moment where someone on the High Elf wowpedia deleted the entire "Recent Events" section for High Elves just because it used against them in an argument.

Both problems fixed after being investigated, and not that it matters because Obelisk would of course be as bias as ever to not mention that while trying to feign his "objectivity and understanding" on the matter. But posting this for posterity.

[Deleted]

Well, from a belf player's perspective, I can tell you that Void Elves already makes me sad for the race I've been playing since BC. We've been asked for things like new, non-stupid facial hair and the removal of duckface for so, so long, and while thankfully we've gotten the latter, only Void Elves get the former. If High Elves were to be added, with all these awesome tribal tattoos, buff looks, feathers in their hair, why wouldn't I be annoyed? Look, more awesome customization for our model except oh, no, if you want to have that customization on your belf model you'd best be ready to abandon your story since BC, your guild, your faction, etc. Already we've been shown that we can be passed over for options many of us were dying to have, only to give them to the opposite faction. If this happened with some feature you cared about this much, you'd be pretty upset too.

On Alliance side, since Void Elves were introduces, I'd say that more than half the characters I run into are Void Elves. For one thing, I hate seeing a model I associate with Horde on Alliance, just as much as I hate seeing Nightborne on Horde. The idea that faction lines are undermined by these kind of races is entirely true, and despite some of you not much caring about faction identity, you don't speak for the entire playerbase. Some of us like how the Alliance and Horde look. Some of us don't want to trade races across faction.

It's called cost of opportunity. The implementation of something like a High Elf means that that customization is now barred to Blood Elves. We've already seen this with Void Elves, and I have to wonder if that race didn't exist if we'd maybe get some of those looks in the future. But now? Now we can't. There's a cost in adding High Elves as an Allied race in that it keeps the Alliance from getting something way more original. If it came down to High Elves vs. Sethrak, I'd be pissed if we got High Elves.

Yet another issue is the idea that there would ever be a "belf but better" race. Yes, I'm fully aware that better is subjective. I'm fully aware that some people would not see them as better. But as it is now, Blood Elves have looks that are low poly compared to Void Elves and so they look older already, and this problem would only get worse if High Elves were added. Further, Blood Elves are in a faction where NONE of the faction's identity matches with their cultural aesthetic, whereas Alliance gets very elegant looks that would entirely match Thalassian elves. This is especially true come BfA, where the Warfront sets are gorgeous, lovingly crafted, beautiful things, and the Horde gets, you guessed it, more spikes. So no, I don't want to see an improved, highly customized belf model sporting some of the most gorgeous armor I've ever seen, riding around on a beautiful updated horse. That IS the culture of Blood Elves. That IS their history.

Oh, and as an Allied race? You can bet they'd get to start at higher levels and have heritage armor. Great. A Thalassian heritage set. Only for High Elves. Cool. That would make two belf-looking races with leveling perks and race-specific armor. I suppose us belf players can stick with BC-quality belf-themed models for transmog, if we want race-based armor. Sure, that seems totally fair to us.

So this is why I, personally, don't want High Elves added. It's stepping on toes, it's insulting to the lore, it's an old, dead-end race. You have Alleria, you have her followers, including all those High Elves coming to the Rift to learn about the Void. Those ARE the ones that never left the Alliance. They ARE playable. So if you care about the lore, there. You have those exact High Elves. If you're only in this for the skin color and eyes, you may want to take a step back and evaluate exactly what you're asking for and how it would harm other players.

You can call me whatever names you want, I don't care. Think this is jealous and petty? Whatever. But the fact is, you can't dictate how these ideas make myself and many other Horde players feel, just as we can't tell you to care less about what you want. The people arguing on the other side from you are not robots, we play this game too, and our opinions on this game are worth exactly as much as yours. How we feel about races added and the future of the game are worth exactly as much as yours. Our desire to see High Elves remain unplayable is worth EXACTLY as much as your desire for them to be playable. And yes, we have real reasons for how we feel, just as you have real reasons for how you feel.

Fantastic post. Sums up a lot of my feelings, and it's no doubt how a lot of other mainly blood elf players feel about the subject. I'd absolutely take it as an infringement of my favorite race's identity if a "better/nicer/purer" version was made playable on the opposite faction, and at the heart of it, that's what this request is demanding. You know it, I know it, Ion and Blizzard knew it. I was willing to accept void elves - high/blood elves at their core, but vastly different in theme and aesthetic - but the high elf crowd clearly was not.

It's a shame Blizzard botched the void elf origin story so badly with the stupid blood elf void cult nonsense. It would've been fascinating to see how this "movement" evolved if the void elves were void-touched Silver Covenant high elves who were rescued by Alleria instead. Would we still be seeing an insane outcry for blond-haired, blue-eyed, Caucasian elv- I mean, uh, "high elf lore"? I wonder. If this community's day 1 reaction to void elves is anything to go by, back when we all just assumed they were Alleria's high elf followers....I'd guess yes.

[KrakHed]

If this community's day 1 reaction to void elves is anything to go by, back when we all just assumed they were Alleria's high elf followers....I'd guess yes.

Remind me what that was again? I can hardly recall.

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Anyhow, this is what I see as the main issue here with implementing any race. Thematic intrusion. Every race has to give off a different theme and feel, in such a way that doesn't intrude upon or swamp out others. Fans of other races don't want to see what makes theirs special be taken away or diluted by another race. So, let's look at things when it comes to Elves, and see what niches are actually available.

First, we must acknowledge that the Blood Elf story has progressed quite a lot, or you could say that it's essentially regressed. People acting like they're a bunch of stuck up snobs, so haughty and arrogant, are ignoring this to a degree. That's just a common High Elf stereotype, along with the jokes of them being effeminate. Add in playable High Elves, and you'd probably equally dumb jokes like that.

So, what are Blood Elves? They aren't mana vampires. They aren't even particularly corrupted. If anything, they're holier than they ever were before and learned a lesson in humility years ago. Not only that, but two thirds of their ruling council are Rangers. So it's not like Rangers aren't part of their identity. If I were to sum up the Blood Elves by their fantasy niche, I'd say they were just High Elves with all the things you'd mostly expect from High Elves. Your standard noble and majestic Elf, now infused with the essence of holiness and purity. They've lost most of their edge entirely, and now they're the ones saying which magical practices are too dangerous or wrong.

In terms of themes, there's a massive overlap between High Elves and Blood Elves. When it comes to just shoving tattoos on one, the thought almost makes me laugh. Back in the day, it was the Blood Elves who were implied to be the tattooed Elves.

If Blood Elves had remained mana vampires, things might be different. But now? Now the differences have faded. High Elves don't really have their own niche. They are blue Blood Elves pulling from the same cultural and biological roots without much modification. The difference in themes is pretty much entirely a difference in loyalties these days.

If we take the High Elves in an "Arcane Purist" direction, that'd pull them a bit away from the holier Blood Elves. And right into the Nightborne niche. If we focus on wilder aspects, borrowing from the Rangers, they'd still have to be pushed rather far to separate their identity from Blood Elf Rangers who still exist. And by that point, you're intruding on the Wild Elf identity that's supposed to be dominated by the Night Elves.

Now, you may wonder why that last part is a problem. See, the Night Elf fans feel like they've been made into bootlicking Human sidekicks to fill the standard Humans, Elves, and Dwarves relationship. Giving High Elves the themes that Night Elves feel they've been deprived of is not going to go over well.

The way I see it, Void Elves were the lazy answer to this dilemma. Just take what Blood Elves are now, and invert it. By taking them in the opposite direction, you theoretically create a new niche. Which is also kind of the one that the Blood Elves use to occupy, with even the idea of mastering and stealing power from divine beings and so on instead of revering or serving them. Alleria literally eating the heart of a Demigod and draining the power of a Naaru.

The problem here is that this anti-niche, the corrupted race to mirror the redeemed, will create a race with many of the same features that made High Elf fans turn down Blood Elves in the first place. The very things that make Void Elves into reverse Blood Elves also make them reverse High Elves due to how similar their current states are.

So, we must find an unoccupied niche. Not Arcane Elves, not Wild Elves, not traditional High Elf as the Blood Elves have returned to, and not a simple inversion. Now, this probably wouldn't be that hard if Blizzard actually tried.

[FlubberPuddy]

Blood Elves don't play up their Ranger themes at all. The Farstriders are a back seat to their mage and paladin themes, to say this isn't true shows a real lack of understanding of how Blizzard has moved their story forward.

Hell Liadrin is more prominent to Blood Elf iconography than Lor'themar or Halduron. Trying to say this isn't true is being ignorant of how little Lor and Halduron have actually done. People make jokes about Lor'themar does nothing so very often, that should be enough clue to see that the Ranger aesthetic for Blood Elves is a back seat compared to their Magocracy and Holy Knight themes.

I mean if people don't want to accept it that's fine, I guess they say similar things about people wanting High Elves so at the end of the day it's pretty moot for either side I guess.