Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

I actually disagree. Blood Elves don't represent the fantasy High Elf trope. Blood Elves represent the classical elf trope from myths where elves were allied with the scary monsters of the wilderness and were something for humanity to fear. As allies of orcs, trolls, undead, minotaur, and goblins, they are exactly what they were always depicted to be: beautiful monsters, both powerful and dangerous, who kill humans.

The fantasy High Elf trope is very different. These are heroic elves that look almost human and fight alongside humanity against the evils of the world (i.e. orcs, trolls, undead, minotaur, and goblins).

Easily disproved thanks to our new video source where Chris Metzen talks about the genesis of the Blood Elves. He brings up that the impetus for the reimagining of the High Elf trope was what they did with Night Elves.

We know from other interviews that the Night Elf 'reimagining' was in fact the conflation of two other tropes from wider fantasy, Dark Elves and Wood Elves. Dark Elves, with their female societies and preference for the night and the wood elves harmony with the forests and nature.

They aren't referring to ancient stories when they talk about this, they are talking about Dungeons and Dragons versions of these races they had invented. Dungeons and Dragons as I am sure you are aware basically created early modern fantasy, with all the High Fantasy settings created since it's inception heavily borrowing from it. Warhammer is an example of a franchise that heavily borrowed from D and D.Warcraft was initially conceived as a Warhammer rts in the very beginning and they couldn't get the license. They knew exactly what tropes and stereotypes they were pillaging and inverting to forge their own lore.

And wouldn't you know it, Chris Metzen is a huge Dungeons and Dragons fan.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/over...ic/20749037340

So no, they aren't reaching back to ancient stories or old lore to inform their storytelling. Those who came before like Gygax already did that. They are taking what Gygax did and inverting it. Those are the stereotypes they were working with.

Which is why we have Night Elves and Blood Elves.

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You're doing exactly the same because you don't care about official commentaries when it doesn't suit you. Both camp are actually doing it.
And yes, your video is clearly outdated. Official devs changed their mind since. Because if they did not, High elves wouldn't have been introduced in every expansion since TBC.

Really? Because in the video Chris Metzen says clearly Blood Elves are High Elves.
And Ion says Blood Elves are High Elves thirteen years later.
And Alliance High Elves still aren't playable.

So I doubt the video is outdated if every statement on the matter since has simply been restating what Chris Metzen said.

[elbleuet]

Easily disproved thanks to our new video source where Chris Metzen talks about the genesis of the Blood Elves. He brings up that the impetus for the reimagining of the High Elf trope was what they did with Night Elves.

We know from other interviews that the Night Elf 'reimagining' was in fact the conflation of two other tropes from wider fantasy, Dark Elves and Wood Elves. Dark Elves, with their female societies and preference for the night and the wood elves harmony with the forests and nature.

They aren't referring to ancient stories when they talk about this, they are talking about Dungeons and Dragons versions of these races they had invented. Dungeons and Dragons as I am sure you are aware basically created early modern fantasy, with all the High Fantasy settings created since it's inception heavily borrowing from it. Warhammer is an example of a franchise that heavily borrowed from D and D.Warcraft was initially conceived as a Warhammer rts in the very beginning and they couldn't get the license. They knew exactly what tropes and stereotypes they were pillaging and inverting to forge their own lore.

And wouldn't you know it, Chris Metzen is a huge Dungeons and Dragons fan.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/over...ic/20749037340

So no, they aren't reaching back to ancient stories or old lore to inform their storytelling. Those who came before like Gygax already did that. They are taking what Gygax did and inverting it. Those are the stereotypes they were working with.

Which is why we have Night Elves and Blood Elves.

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Really? Because in the video Chris Metzen says clearly Blood Elves are High Elves.
And Ion says Blood Elves are High Elves thirteen years later.
And Alliance High Elves still aren't playable.

So I doubt the video is outdated if every statement on the matter since has simply been restating what Chris Metzen said.

Chris Metzen and Ion basically say Blood elves are heirs of the High elves, which is true because they're from the same race and they live in Quel'Thalas. But that's it.
Every single blood elves IG would disagree with you if you call them High elves because they don't consider themselves as such. That's why calling them Horde high elves is a lie.

High elves aren't playable indeed... for now.

[Varx]

Holy crap man...

we find a video supporting anti helfers with Metzen, the father of fucking WARCRAFT LORE him self and you guys continue to distort logic and reasoning with mindless hope and wishful thinking.

Blizzard in 2021: "high elves will never EVER be playable because they already exist as their literary evolution as belves in the Horde." Signed every single Blizz dev.

Helfers in 2021: "don't lose hope guys, last patch introduced a faceless helf npc and they still have exclusive blue eyes so probably helves next expac!!"

Blizzard in 2023: all helves died from mana aids. They are literaly extinct.

Helfers in 2023: "the bronze dragons will open a rift to old azeroth and recruit past helves as an AR."

Seriouse question here, what will it seriously take for you guys to accept the fact that helves already exist in the horde and won't be added to the alliance in the form that you're asking.

#neutralelves, #compensatewithogres, #blueeyesforhorde

[Traycor]

our new video source where Chris Metzen talks about the genesis of the Blood Elves.

Hiya Kai! Awesome, haven't seen this video. Do you have a link?

They aren't referring to ancient stories when they talk about this, they are talking about Dungeons and Dragons versions of these races they had invented.

On this I highly disagree. If Metzen's body of work is taken as a whole, he is a student of all this ancient stuff and knows many specific details very well. He wasn't just exposed to these ideas through culture, he studied it. I understand that he was trying to invert basic D&D concepts, but in this case (blood elves) he did this by just going back to what an "elf" was portrayed as classically. He didn't do something new, he went old (but out of fashion).

[Uthan]

No matter blizzards intentions, they've dug themselves into a hole on this one. If they had wanted blood elves to be the the high elves of wow they shouldn't have put high elves on the alliance side at the same time, and kept putting them in and giving them so much spotlight (as much as or more than many playable races) over the years. As long as the game itself contradicts their words and intentions, people won't stop asking to play them. Same with Ion trying to explain their stance that blood elves are high elves, no one will listen to that as long as the game itself keeps contradicting him. He should just cut the crap and just say that they don't want to do high elves, and if he wants to back that up not go with flimsy excuses that the game itself seemingly disproves.

[Obelisk Kai]

Hiya Kai! Awesome, haven't seen this video. Do you have a link?



On this I highly disagree. If Metzen's body of work is taken as a whole, he is a student of all this ancient stuff and knows many specific details very well. He wasn't just exposed to these ideas through culture, he studied it. I understand that he was trying to invert basic D&D concepts, but in this case (blood elves) he did this by just going back to what an "elf" was portrayed as classically. He didn't do something new, he went old (but out of fashion).

The video is here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3uz...o5tfIA&index=2

It's from the 2005 Blizzcon when Blood Elves were announced as the new Horde race.

He is clearly talking about inverting stereotypes whilst talking to a convention of fans who probably wouldn't have that background, but would be familiar with D and D.

If he was personally reaching back to those older stories, he still had to frame it in such a way his audience would get it. Which means that while there potentially might have been an influence, it is at best vestigial.

Most importantly though Chris Metzen says Blood Elves are our High Elves. Whilst I have seen too many people say Ion doesn't know what he is talking about simply because he restated the obvious, it is hard to argue that Chris Metzen doesn't know what he is talking about in regards to Warcraft lore.

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No matter blizzards intentions, they've dug themselves into a hole on this one. If they had wanted blood elves to be the the high elves of wow they shouldn't have put high elves on the alliance side at the same time, and kept putting them in and giving them so much spotlight (as much as or more than many playable races) over the years. As long as the game itself contradicts their words and intentions, people won't stop asking to play them. Same with Ion trying to explain their stance that blood elves are high elves, no one will listen to that as long as the game itself keeps contradicting him. He should just cut the crap and just say that they don't want to do high elves, and if he wants to back that up not go with flimsy excuses that the game itself seemingly disproves.

I thought it was fairly explicit that they didn't want to do Alliance High Elves? That they went to the effort of making Void Elves rather than add Alliance High Elves is a dead giveaway.

The Alliance High Elves are not in themselves taunting a playerbase through their existence, that is a complaint of the pro High Elf community. They represent a small group who have rejected the path their people on and who prefer to remain with the Alliance. Their existence is logical and rational, particularly no other race has switched sides between the major factions as the High Elves did when they renamed themselves Blood Elves. That a tiny group would reject that and stay with whom they perceive to be their real allies is good storytelling. But beyond their use as story props, the Alliance High Elves serve no other purpose.

Think of them as old faction furniture. They sit around, add a little bit of texture to things and that is all.

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Chris Metzen and Ion basically say Blood elves are heirs of the High elves, which is true because they're from the same race and they live in Quel'Thalas. But that's it.
Every single blood elves IG would disagree with you if you call them High elves because they don't consider themselves as such. That's why calling them Horde high elves is a lie.

High elves aren't playable indeed... for now.

As stated by myself, and validated by a Chris Metzen quote I hadn't known even existed until this morning, Blood Elves are the redefinition of what a High Elf is. That was the explicit intent behind the rename, that reinterpretation. But they are still the High Elves of the franchise. They are playable. Two senior developers a decade and a half apart saying the same thing, one of whom actually created not only the Blood Elves but the High Elves themselves, and you still indulge denial.

[Gurluas]

And yet High elves with a redefined and continuing identity persists in the Alliance since TBC.
Chris Metzen is talking about the High elf trope, which has existed long before TBC and is unrelated to the specific Wow High elves.

You seem to have forgotten the situation the High elves were in during TBC, yet it was the very foundation of High elf identity.
Blood elves became more radical but continued the supremacist ways of the old High elves. In essence...Blood elves ARE the Wc3 High elves.

However, they abandoned the High elf name, and at first, so did the group we call High elves today.
Those High elves reclaimed their old name when they became disgusted with the attitude and the actions of the Blood elves.

The High elves were in a pickle, they refused to use fel magic or to drain magical creatures dry, meaning they had to struggle and fight their great addiction.
Those High elves mostly resided in Dalaran, lodges or Alliance cities and received help from the Alliance to cope with those struggles. Exiled and cut off from what is left of their people in Silvermoon, these elves were humbled deeply, and their perspective, ideology, and identity shifted as well.

Blood elves consider themselves superior to other races, even within the Horde many Blood elves privately think of their Horde allies as lesser races just as the High elves thought of the Alliance once. The Blood elves continue the luxurious opulent life of the old High elves, while the new High elves shifted culturally in many ways.

Forexample the Quel'danil High elves entirely stopped practicing or using magic in any way. All the while respecting and strengthening their bonds with their Alliance allies, but they no longer considers themselves superior. Their model may be similar, and they're not that far removed from Blood elves so their culture is similar and they share a language... But in terms of racial identity, ideology and world view, High elves are as different from Blood elves as Blood elves are from Night elves.

If anything, Void elves are a much worse scenario, because Void elves are literally purple Blood elves in the Alliance.
They think, and act like Blood elves and in fact were the Blood elves who took their radicalism to an even worse extreme than just meddling with fel.

If the new High elf identity is expanded upon, they can very well become a good concept for an allied race.
I do not want Blood elves with blue eyes in the Alliance. I want the wonderful High elf faction that has been developing in the Alliance since TBC to be developed further, in a new direction, and made into a proper distinct race. Even if it means they'd have to look different.

[Uthan]

The video is here
I thought it was fairly explicit that they didn't want to do Alliance High Elves? That they went to the effort of making Void Elves rather than add Alliance High Elves is a dead giveaway.

The Alliance High Elves are not in themselves taunting a playerbase through their existence, that is a complaint of the pro High Elf community. They represent a small group who have rejected the path their people on and who prefer to remain with the Alliance. Their existence is logical and rational, particularly no other race has switched sides between the major factions as the High Elves did when they renamed themselves Blood Elves. That a tiny group would reject that and stay with whom they perceive to be their real allies is good storytelling. But beyond their use as story props, the Alliance High Elves serve no other purpose.

Think of them as old faction furniture. They sit around, add a little bit of texture to things and that is all.

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As stated by myself, and validated by a Chris Metzen quote I hadn't known even existed until this morning, Blood Elves are the redefinition of what a High Elf is. That was the explicit intent behind the rename, that reinterpretation. But they are still the High Elves of the franchise. They are playable. Two senior developers a decade and a half apart saying the same thing, one of whom actually created not only the Blood Elves but the High Elves themselves, and you still indulge denial.

If one doesn't want playable high elves, sure, it's fairly explicit. But one has to remember that opinions always skews things slightly in favor of ones own beliefs, that's just basic psychology (sure, some people are better at being objective than others, but anyone who claims they're never biased to any degree at all are simply lying to themselves). So to those who've reeeally wanted to play them ever since they first appeared (be that WC2 or TBC), it's no surprise how one would interpret everything at least slightly (or majorly, depending on conviction) to their own favor. Whether one calls that denial or holding onto hope doesn't really matter, the fact remains unless blizzard stop baiting people wanting high elves (unintentionally or not) people won't stop trying to justify their desires.

To use your analogy, if all you had ever wanted for over a decade was that one piece of old furniture, is it so strange to see it as being taunted to keep being shown said furniture but never allowed to sit in it?

Being fairly explicit with one hand and tempting with the other will just keep it going forever.

[DeicideUH]

That's awesome! Hope they enjoy them over there. Do you have a link to the thread?

It's the official quarantine thread. Here's where I posted your images:

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...amara-goldrinn

@Obelisk Kai Found this video, and it supports the original claim you made that blood elfs ARE the high elf trope of WoW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3uz...o5tfIA&index=2

Skip to 7:05... Chris Metzen states that blood elfs ARE our high elfs. So it's clear Blizzards intention was always that blood elfs would be the high elfs of WoW. So adding playable high elfs would detract from THE playable high elven race on the Horde... the group that Blizzard intented would hold the torch for high elf story in the future.

Also, at 10:17 Chris reinforces that blood elfs are the high elf trope in WoW. "We are the high elven blood"

For those interested, Chris talks about the blood elfs roughly between 7:00-14:00. I understand lorewise some things have been slightly altered since, but it's clear that from the very beginning of the introduction of blood elfs that Blizzard looked at them as "the high elfs of WoW". This is why alliance aligned high elfs would blur faction lines, cause the high elven lore belongs to the blood elfs (who are now a core Horde race) and Blizzard intends to keep it that way.... hence why void elfs were made an AR as opposed to high elfs

1- He's explaining their history. Once he reaches the point in which they become blood elves, he does not use the high elf name anymore, because they are not high elves anymore.

2- 09:50 - "And in doing so, he damned the last vestiges of the high elven race".

3- 14 years later, and we know there's still uncorrupted high elves that didn't take that path.

4- Your point is to take a developer explaining a race as if he was talking about another. He's explaining the blood elves, which are former high elves, not the elves that remained high elves and we know for sure that they still exist.

5- We don't care if blood elves are the heirs of the past high elves. There's still other high elves in the setting and those are the ones we are interested in. We don't want Silvermoon, we don't want the blood elf legacy. We want to see the story of the elves that refused that path and still survive to this day. Like it or not, they still exist.

6- We don't mind if the high elves rename them as well. Call them silver elves or whatever. That way it's clear some high elves became blood elves and others became silver elves (or whatever). Two different paths, Two different races.

[Strippling]

1- He's explaining their history. Once he reaches the point in which they become blood elves, he does not use the high elf name anymore, because they are not high elves anymore.

2- 09:50 - "And in doing so, he damned the last vestiges of the high elven race".

3- 14 years later, and we know there's still uncorrupted high elves that didn't take that path.

We know all this. Doesn't change the fact that Blizzard clearly view blood elfs as high elfs... who changed their name in honor of their fallen. Hence why they believe, along with me and many many others, that high elfs would blur faction lines.

4- Your point is to take a developer explaining a race as if he was talking about another. He's explaining the blood elves, which are former high elves, not the elves that remained high elves and we know for sure that they still exist.

Metzen wasn't talking about another race. He was talking about the high elfs and where they are today. This panel was for TBC, and isn't it interesting that we saw some high elfs in Outland yet Metzen mentioned nothing of these high elfs in this lore panel. He only mentioned Blood Elfs are our High Elfs. Yes a small group of high elfs splintered from the main high elven society (who are now Horde) and remained with the Alliance, but it's clear that Blizzard intended the future of high elfs to progress via the Blood Elfs. There is no denying it. When Blizzard add new playable races the intention is to provide something new with a unique flavor (essentially to provide variety to the player base). High elfs would provide no such unique flavor or creativity, apart from a differing political view to their kin on the Horde. And because of this, Blizzard believe alliance high elfs would do nothing but blur faction lines... all for the sake of allowing a very small minority of players to fulfil their Legolas fantasy. Not happening Gary, faction identity is a core feature of this game.

5- We don't want Silvermoon, we don't want the blood elf legacy.

Actually funny enough some players on this thread and on the official thread posted ideas of the alliance high elfs reclaiming Silvermoon as part of their AR introduction story. So personally you may not want Silvermoon, but other helfers certainly do.

The blood elf legacy is the high elf legacy. You can't want high elfs without wanting the legacy that rightfully belongs to the Blood Elfs. This is called "blurring faction lines" and "impeding on Horde Identity"

6- We don't mind if the high elves rename them as well. Call them silver elves or whatever. That way it's clear some high elves became blood elves and others became silver elves (or whatever). Two different paths, Two different races.

So you're happy for changes to be made to high elfs? Sorry but when I read comments like this I find it hard to believe that some helfers genuinely want them for the lore, but rather are secretly wanting the aesthetic. Just how I see it at least.

Also, they're not separate races. I don't even know how you could conjure that idea.

[FlubberPuddy]

The blood elf legacy is the high elf legacy. You can't want high elfs without wanting the legacy that rightfully belongs to the Blood Elfs. This is called "blurring faction lines" and "impeding on Horde Identity"

Yeah you can, because everything that happened the moment the Blood Elves and High Elves split is entirely Blood Elf legacy alone. Aka harnessing fel magics, draining mana from creatures, imprisoning a Naaru to forcefully give its Light. And on and on that Blood Elves have done since TBC which Alliance High Elves are not part of. Alliance High Elves have done none of those things and thus Blood Elves continue on with their own legacy and future.

It's the same as if you use Night Elves and Nightborne. Both night elven races which had a shared history then diverging onto their own paths. Same concept.

So you're happy for changes to be made to high elfs? Sorry but when I read comments like this I find it hard to believe that some helfers genuinely want them for the lore, but rather are secretly wanting the aesthetic. Just how I see it at least.

Also, they're not separate races. I don't even know how you could conjure that idea.

What he was suggesting is if it's too confusing for others to understand what's being asked for then Blizzard could rename the Alliance High Elves into "Silver Elves" (or whatever other name Blizzard may choose) just so it's not confusing to those of what's being asked for.

And the "race" isn't the focal point here, if it were then every "High elfer" would be content with the Void Elves since those are a race of high elves too. The Night Elves on Alliance and Nightborne aren't different races either. This last bit really depends on how you subjectively see what constitutes a race of its own. It's like trying to call Dark Irons and Dwarves not seperate races - that doesn't matter from a playable context. What matters isn't the race, but the groups within that race.

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If the new High elf identity is expanded upon, they can very well become a good concept for an allied race.
I do not want Blood elves with blue eyes in the Alliance. I want the wonderful High elf faction that has been developing in the Alliance since TBC to be developed further, in a new direction, and made into a proper distinct race. Even if it means they'd have to look different.

All of this 100000%.

[Cobman]

Don't crucify me but I think with newest Ions interview, there will be more customization options for races and one of them will be eye color option. I'm pretty sure blood elves will get their blue eyes and just like that high elven problem will be gone. All u guys can ask is more flesh-like skin for void elves, to rp as high elf on the Alliance. I mean I get it, blood elves fit more with Alliance theme and all but problem started with The Burning Crusade and pretty race for Horde. Sometimes it's better to lose with grace.

[Garfurion]

Fair enough, you make a strong case that blue eyes were not caused by the Sunwell prior to it's destruction.

However, if you are correct, this means that the relationship between thalassian elves and the Sunwell has changed because Blizzard has also been explicit that the holy aspect of the Sunwell is the reason that some Elves are now manifesting golden eyes.

The Holy Energy of the Sunwell could have a different effect then the original Arcane energy.

Btw, do you have a link where Blizzard links the Sunwell's holy energy to yellow/golden eyes because I only found Feasel's quote explaining golden eyes and he didn't make the link directly.

So the original logic behind the request for blue eyes for Blood Elves holds, if the holy aspect of the new Sunwell allows those attuned to the light to manifest golden eyes as the fel is cleansed from their bodies, then those attuned to the Arcane should be able to manifest blue eyes through the Arcane aspect of the Sunwell. And we know thalassian elves can manifest glowing blue eyes because the Alliance High Elves do it.

If the holy energy in the Sunwell cleanses the fel from Blood Elves then they should be able to get their blue (and other color) eyes back. However, if the holy energy of the Sunwell interacts with the green eyes of Blood Elves and that results in golden eyes then blue eyes might be "lost" forever. It still leaves the question open if the Sunwell's holy energy causes the golden eyes.

Since I think lorewise Horde High Elves could exist that alone could give the Horde blue eyed High Elves.

Ion's statement regarding High Elves and Blood Elves having different eye color, which he made after yellow/golden eyes were revealed, indicates to me that blue eyes may be lost to Blood Elves, if only for game play reasons.

Yet what Feasel said doesn't carry the same weight, as there are several other Blizzard sources that tell a different story from their own website entry on Blood Elves, to the Chronicles, to common sense. The website entry says Velen purified the Sunwell, the Chronicles say the same thing I believe (and when I get the opportunity I will consult my copy of Chronicles to confirm)

Jeremy Feasels explanation does still seem to be the only official lore explanation regarding golden eyes though.

I don't like retcons (they are usually due to laziness by Blizzard) so I don't have a problem with Jeremy Feasel being wrong regarding Anveena cleansing the Sunwell.

However, a cleansed Sunwell causing Blood Elf Paladins and Priests to loose their fel energy and gain golden eyes is not the same as the Suwell's holy energy causing Golden Eyes.

In Warcraft 2 human Paladins had golden eyes distinguishing them from Knights if I remember correctly. It could be that "golden"eyes" are a paladin/priest feature we'll see appear with more races and that the Sunwell merely cleanses the fel taint from Blood Elves making it possible for Paladins and Priests to develop these golden eyes.

and the fact that the holy aspect of the Sunwell is now providing Blood Elves with golden eyes, a direct result of the purification through adding the heart of a naaru, is the clincher.

If it is a "fact' then there should be an official canon lore source stating it.

[Lumineus]

Holy magic doesn't purify Fel, anyway. There are Fel Eredar Paladins. It's just stapling gold foil over a container of nuclear waste.

[FlubberPuddy]

The other thing to remember about the whole Golden Eyes thing is Jeremy Feasel explained going forward we'll see "a little bit" of that with NPC Paladin and Priests manifest those golden eyes. He does not say going forward we'll see EVERY Blood Elf with Golden Eyes now. What of NPC Blood Elf Warriors? Or BE Mages or Rogues or Hunters? Do they manifest Golden eyes as well now?

"Jeremy Feasel: So the quest to explain that actually happened way back in Sunwell Plateau when Anveena sacrificed herself to cleanse the Sunwell. That's what caused the blood elves to finally lose their fel energy and gain these sort of golden eyes, and you'll start to see that a little bit with some of the paladin and priest blood elf NPCs that are going to be showing up in Battle for Azeroth"

He then within the same response touches upon players having that customization because of the storyline, noted here: "...and then of course the customization option will be available for players because the storyline says that that's where they should be now."

This means it's a lore decision. We have yet for anyone to bring lore proof that one can choose which energies within the Sunwell they can manifest.

Then Jeremy ends it with: "But if you want to keep your green eyes because you're a blood elf warlock and that feels right, you do you."

Indicating that green eyes are a blood elf feature, therefore allowing the player to have a customizable choice. He also shows that this ability to still have green eyes is a gameplay choice, not a lore one. As stated earlier by Jeremy, golden eyes are where blood elves "should be now."

That then begs the question: Are Blue Eyes a Blood Elf feature? When have playable Blood Elves ever had Blue Eyes? How does Blizzard portray "Blue eyed Thalassians" in game?

So two major things I believe need to be answered if Blood Elf players feel like they should have Blue Eyes customization:

1) Where is it said in lore that a Blood Elf can choose which energies to attune themselves to in the Sunwell?

2) Are Blue Eyes a Blood Elf feature?

[Graden]

The other thing to remember about the whole Golden Eyes thing is Jeremy Feasel explained going forward we'll see "a little bit" of that with NPC Paladin and Priests manifest those golden eyes. He does not say going forward we'll see EVERY Blood Elf with Golden Eyes now. What of NPC Blood Elf Warriors? Or BE Mages or Rogues or Hunters? Do they manifest Golden eyes as well now?

"Jeremy Feasel: So the quest to explain that actually happened way back in Sunwell Plateau when Anveena sacrificed herself to cleanse the Sunwell. That's what caused the blood elves to finally lose their fel energy and gain these sort of golden eyes, and you'll start to see that a little bit with some of the paladin and priest blood elf NPCs that are going to be showing up in Battle for Azeroth"

He then within the same response touches upon players having that customization because of the storyline, noted here: "...and then of course the customization option will be available for players because the storyline says that that's where they should be now."

This means it's a lore decision. We have yet for anyone to bring lore proof that one can choose which energies within the Sunwell they can manifest.

Then Jeremy ends it with: "But if you want to keep your green eyes because you're a blood elf warlock and that feels right, you do you."

Indicating that green eyes are a blood elf feature, therefore allowing the player to have a customizable choice. He also shows that this ability to still have green eyes is a gameplay choice, not a lore one. As stated earlier by Jeremy, golden eyes are where blood elves "should be now."

That then begs the question: Are Blue Eyes a Blood Elf feature? When have playable Blood Elves ever had Blue Eyes? How does Blizzard portray "Blue eyed Thalassians" in game?

So two major things I believe need to be answered if Blood Elf players feel like they should have Blue Eyes customization:

1) Where is it said in lore that a Blood Elf can choose which energies to attune themselves to in the Sunwell?

2) Are Blue Eyes a Blood Elf feature?

Interesting that according to Jeremy "the storyline says that that's where they should be now" and yet when they updated Lore'themar, he still has a green eye. Missed opportunity if you ask me, to also make the leader of the race reflect this change, since "this is where they should be now".

[FlubberPuddy]

Interesting that according to Jeremy "the storyline says that that's where they should be now" and yet when they updated Lore'themar, he still has a green eye. Missed opportunity if you ask me, to also make the leader of the race reflect this change, since "this is where they should be now".

Well remember he is saying that portion in reference to the PLAYERS. As I've pointed out, he only mentioned Paladins and Priests NPC wise, nothing of Warriors, Hunters, Rogues, Mages, etc getting the Golden Eye treatment.

I think it was just his way of saying, kind of like how Blizzard doesn't have a good explanation for NE Night Warrior eyes for all player characters but not NPCs, that players are able to have this option because storyline of a purified Sunwell is where they should be now.

Like essentially if you're a Night Elf player, you should be having Night Warrior eyes (cuz they explained it that when Tyrande did the ritual it manifests in the nearby NEs). So same with BE golden eyes, players have that option cuz that's where their characters should be now.

But you wouldn't force your players to have a certain customization, so they leave it up as an option, hence bringing up the BE warlock green eyes example. "You do you."

[Aldo Hawk]

Well remember he is saying that portion in reference to the PLAYERS. As I've pointed out, he only mentioned Paladins and Priests NPC wise, nothing of Warriors, Hunters, Rogues, Mages, etc getting the Golden Eye treatment.

I think it was just his way of saying, kind of like how Blizzard doesn't have a good explanation for NE Night Warrior eyes for all player characters but not NPCs, that players are able to have this option because storyline of a purified Sunwell is where they should be now.

Like essentially if you're a Night Elf player, you should be having Night Warrior eyes (cuz they explained it that when Tyrande did the ritual it manifests in the nearby NEs). So same with BE golden eyes, players have that option cuz that's where their characters should be now.

But you wouldn't force your players to have a certain customization, so they leave it up as an option, hence bringing up the BE warlock green eyes example. "You do you."

I just think that the fact that only priests and paladins show this feature tells a lot about how the golden eyes work, as if it were something that happens when a Blood elf uses light magic from the Sunwell and not something that should happen to every Thalassian alive.

Let's also remember that Thalassians tap mana and some even tapped some fel (which is literally the direct counterpart to mana), but we don't know if they can use Light in order to get a fix from their addiction just as mana or fel can do.

Also, we don't even know if it's through exposure, but taking into account that only NPC light users show the golden eyes i would get rid of this assumption.

In conclusion: We don't exactly know what gives Blood elves golden eyes, we just know that Blood elves do in fact tap on mana, we don't know if they tap on holy light, golden eyes manifests in light users (Lor'themar is a ranger, not a paladin, an explanation on why he wouldn't show those), and we don't even have any suggestion of blue eyes being capable of showing again on blood elves away from time passing and fel fading due to entropy of whatever, and we don't even know how much time that is or how that works (we only know that is something similar to Orc fel corruption, but we don't even know if Orc can become un-corrupted again one day).

There's lots of lore holes in here, most of it have to be taken with a grain of salt and careful speculation, maybe we should try to open some kind of an agreed method with developers for lore questions? Someone told me that game masters can answer lore questions but others just said that they don't have direct knowledge or something... -_-

I don't know, what are your thoughts on this, Flubber?

[FlubberPuddy]

In conclusion: We don't exactly know what gives Blood elves golden eyes, we just know that Blood elves do in fact tap on mana, we don't know if they tap on holy light, golden eyes manifests in light users (Lor'themar is a ranger, not a paladin, an explanation on why he wouldn't show those), and we don't even have any suggestion of blue eyes being capable of showing again on blood elves away from time passing and fel fading due to entropy of whatever, and we don't even know how much time that is or how that works (we only know that is something similar to Orc fel corruption, but we don't even know if Orc can become un-corrupted again one day).

There's lots of lore holes in here, most of it have to be taken with a grain of salt and careful speculation, maybe we should try to open some kind of an agreed method with developers for lore questions? Someone told me that game masters can answer lore questions but others just said that they don't have direct knowledge or something... -_-

I don't know, what are your thoughts on this, Flubber?

Well my first thoughts are always that Blizzard aren't beholden to anything they've previously said and done and can change things whenever they want if they want to, it's their game after all.

That disclaimer out of the way, with everything that we've been told and shown so far this is how I see things:

A) The Blood Elves as a people are about looking toward the future/moving forward. This is supported by them changing their identity and themes to support looking at the future and not being beholden to their past.

- This is why I don't understand players who seem to want Blood Elves to be referred to as High Elves or talks of "they're the true High Elves" or even the wanting of blue eyes on them because all of these things are marks of their past which they, as a people, have chosen to strive away from. I have yet to see any of these Blood Elf fans use any actually Blood Elf lore or evidence from the current Blood Elves where they consider these things about themselves or express wanting those things they chose to cast off.

B) Both the developers and what's shown in-game is showing us that Green Eyes and Gold Eyes are Blood Elf features, and each has supporting reasons stated in-game and out of game by the developers for why these are Blood Elf features. Blood Elves do tap mana, but we have not seen (or I am not aware of) any evidence that supports Arcane being able to overcome Fel corruption. We have only been shown that Fel overpowers Arcane (in a corruption sense) and that Light can overpower Fel in that same sense.

- This again, leads me to believe that the developers are set (for now at least) on what features "belong" to Blood Elves based on their introduction and narrative progression since then. Remember, Ion said it himself - that when they work on additional customization features they do so where it is appropriate and happens to be part of what they're working on currently. We saw the evidence of this with the Upright posture going to both Green Orcs and Mag'har Orcs (because Blizzard was working on that feature for Mag'har and they are of the same model). This was also shown with Void Elves and Blood Elves getting fixes to bow animations, and lip/mouth fixes - at around the same time we were shown datamining with Blood Elf Golden Eyes.

- How come Blizzard then, at the appropriate time that they were updating Blood Elves with Golden Eyes, did they not add in some Blue eye customization? Remember they were working on Void Elves at the time (who have Blue Eyes) and these eye colors are attached to faces, they could've made one or two more with Blue eye customization, but did not. I have yet to see any reasonably strong argument for why they held off on Blue Eyes. Remember, in the most recent Q&A we were told that now they are in a position to take in the feedback about Allied Races while everything else previously was already in flight. This means their reasoning for not allowing Blue Eyes customization on Blood Elves can't be "due to High Elf controversy" as they just recently stated they only just now begun looking at those Allied Race feedback threads.

C) There have been talks of allowing extra customization to players in terms of eye colors, but I think some people are blowing this out of proportion. Some races have naturally different eye colors (Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, KulTiran, Orcs, Tauren, Darkspear, Goblin) which is very different from the races that have eye colors based on lore (Night Elves, Draenei, Worgen, Dark Irons, Void Elves, Forsaken, Blood Elves, Nightborne, Zandalari).

- For instance, I don't believe we'll ever see Night Elves able to have Blue or Green or Purple or Red eye colors if Eye color customization becomes a thing. Because their eyes are lore-based. Same for Void Elves or Forsaken, Nightborne, and Zandalari. The Blood Elves fall into this category too. BE can only choose between Green and Gold eyes.

- This is VERY different from the Human, Dwarf, Gnomes, Orcs, Darkspear, Goblin, Tauren, and Kul'Tiran. Wherein you can see that their are various eye colors within each race which just happen to be attached to different faces.

- I think when Blizzard speak of separating eye color they're not going to make it so that Dark Iron Dwarves can run around with perfectly normal blue or green eyes like regular Dwarves have available.

- I believe what they meant was how you can see that some Goblins have red eyes, others purple, some green but these are attached to specific faces. What I see them doing is separating that: So you can have a particular face with a particular eye color that the race has available.

- For races that only have one specific eye color (Draenei, Void Elves, Zandalari, Forsaken) I don't see Blizzard giving them additional eye colors, they will probably get some other accessory feature. Because these races have just one eye color only, it's part of their aesthetic and would suddenly be breaking that if say Zandalari were able to choose Red eyes.

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These are my overall thoughts on the subject of eye colors regarding Blood Elves and whenever they decide to have that new eye color customization. I am basing this on what we've been shown. But as always, Blizzard can end up doing whatever they'd want. I'm just working off of what we know from what's been told and what's been shown.

[Traycor]

I guess now that they're able to put Allied Races in the pipeline based on fan feedback, it's time for some High Elf action!