Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

You can't lie yourself.

That retort makes no sense, the syntax is mangled and I cannot decipher your meaning.

Bolded: They totally are.

Underlined: Given that by linear logic if they add the AR it would not come as a 'carbon copy' of any sort they would be more different than Pandaren. The word here is not identical, it's -similar-.

Alliance High Elves say they would be happy with something 'similar'. Void Elves are similar to Blood/High Elves, yet are unacceptable. Suggestions for 'acceptable' all seem to revolve around the same skin tones and hair colours as a Blood Elf but with makeup and different hairtstyles. That isn't similar, that is functionally identical.

I can make a pretty Pandab0i and then replicate the exact same character on the other faction. And i can even replicate it another time and become a Doubleagent wannabe.

Is the faction divide 'destroyed'?

The faction divide was damaged by Pandaren as they undermined the diversity of both factions. However, Pandaren were conceived of as neutral, introduced to both factions at the same time and their entire plotline was based around their neutrality and balance. The damage was thus contained.

Making a race that has been Horde exclusive for over a decade similarly neutral would deal magnitudes more damage to faction diversity. Something Blizzard clearly recognizes as that was the reason Alliance High Elves were rejected over and Void Elves created in their stead.

If they are so much of a blast why can't i find any of those on the character creation screen?

I'm sorry, you can't find any of the post vanilla races added to the game on the character creator? Are you sure you are looking?

Something cannot be a mental gymnastic if it is a strawman in the first place.

Factions are what it's members made of them, not the factions being what determines it's members.

I really don't know what you mean by this, I have been clear that faction identity is derived from it's membership and that each race expands the identity of the respective faction.

'Not a fan'

Those were the literal words, 'Not a fan'. And absolutely -nobody- from the wow dev team has added -anything- about the matter in all these years.

Dev opinion is dev opinion, not holy word.

Dev opinion IS holy word as far as the people debating it are concerned, as the only thing that contradicts what a developer says is a developer in future saying something that overwrites it.

As for nobody adding anything to this matter in all these years...

Ion Hazzikostas (after explaining that Blood Elves ARE High Elves) said: 'Giving that race directly to the Alliance I think would have blurred a lot of the lines between the two factions'...which is the same line of thinking Ghostcrawler was expressing unhappiness over, giving the same race to both Horde and Alliance.

What I guess might be possible is that neutrality might be something they try again as long as the race is, like the Pandaren, both brand new introduced to both factions at the same time. But the Blood Elves, who are High Elves, are now so closely intertwined with the Horde that duplicating that race to the Alliance crosses a major red line.

What kind of research do you have to make this statement? It's your opinion that this is 'many magnitudes greater in negative effect on faction diversity'.

What we already have is something that you happen to dismiss because it shows the lack of meaning of this idea that a race being on both factions is all the bad things in the book

What kind of research do you have to show it is wrong? Stating that Alliance High Elves would do more damage to faction diversity than the Pandaren is common sense.

Did the Pandaren damage faction diversity? Yes they did, having the same race available to both sides damages faction diversity because it has a homogenizing effect.

But the Pandaren were also introduced at the same time to both factions, meaning no faction had an exclusive claim on the Pandaren race or theme prior to their introduction. And the Pandaren story was all about their neutrality and the balance of all things.

In contrast, and I know the following is a really bitter pill for Alliance High Elf fans to swallow, Blood Elves ARE High Elves. Blond haired, fair skinned and majestic with a penchant for magic, they match the wider trope in fantasy to a tee.

In terms of Warcraft lore, they control Silvermoon city, the Sunwell, the Kingdom of Quel'thalas, the Magisters, the Farstriders, the Blood Knights, the Reliquary and the Kingdom's Navy. All high elf lore, the high elf narrative, is bound up with the Blood Elves and the Blood Elves have been a core part of the Horde now for over twelve years. Not even game time, real time.

Duplicating that race, as Alliance High Elves WOULD, absolutely would have a major impact on the faction divide as something that had been a unique part of one side would now be available to the other.

Yeah how convenient that only those who support the request cared to find correlations and apply this logic to other parts of the game and lore to make comparisons and see what is consistent and what is not, isn't it?

How many Death Knights and Demon Hunters do you believe are out there? Why can we play a race that are literally two schools from a village in the back of a giant turtle that choose a side when they decide to leave? Why are trolls playable if they have been mass murdered so many times and taking into account that they are a literal tribe? How many Draenei can be in one ship? How many Goblins survived from a literally bombarded and shipwrecked ship? How many is a group of exiled researchers that play with dangerous primal energies and not actively recruit but accept those who searches for them?

Why is it that High elves are so low populated but they are doing military effort, having civilian life, being present in various institutions and living in many places around Azeroth?

Population is not an issue, they have to wipe them out and let clear that they went along the lines of a 'crack squad' or something in order to matter.

Population is an issue, as Blizzard cite it again and again and again when asked about Alliance High Elves.

Demon Hunters and Death Knights are classes, not races. The argument does not apply.

As for your racial examples, that only holds if you consider Alliance High Elves as having an equivalent population to any example you offer. The real takeaway is that, if all the races you've mentoned have endured that and the population issue doesn't apply to them, just how LOW is the Alliance High Elf population after all?

Could you please cite a High elven organization that is not sided with the Alliance? Just one. I could cite a handful of Blood elven ones that do not side with the Horde.

I can't because there is only one alliance high elf organization of any meaning, the Silver Covenant. The Silver Covenant is Alliance aligned, but not a part of the Alliance, as they are based in the neutral city of Dalaran. So it's a good thing you said 'sided with' rather than 'in' as the answer to that is 'none'. There are no high elven organizations within the Alliance.

Too bad, there are Alliance affiliated Thalassians that do not call themselves Blood elves but maintain their original name that should become playable in order to have a more complete game.

Why is the game somehow incomplete without them? The game has been running successfully for a decade and a half and Alliance High Elves aren't playable. But Blood Elves are...and as Blood Elves are High Elves, then that major race from Warcraft 2 has been playable for a long time. So no, the game isn't incomplete. The way they added the high elves is what vexes you, their absence cannot because they are available.

At the moment, the Alliance is lacking a playable option that is presented as Alliance aligned, as much as the Horde are lacking Ogres for example.

The Alliance got a variant in Void Elves, which have been described as 'another flavour of High Elf'. So the Alliance is missing diddly squat. As for the Horde 'missing Ogres', I don't feel the Horde is incomplete without Ogres, but then again Ogres aren't available as an Alliance race now are they? If they were you'd have an equivalent situation to the Blood Elves, and if they were I would be arguing that while Ogres WERE Horde, they are now Alliance and Horde players should let them go. But they aren't, and so aren't a point of equivalence.

Ok let me digest this to you a bit:

'Blood elves are our High elves' regarding what a High elf in common fantasy settings are. 'And this is our spin on them.'

It can't get more pristine than that.

Yes, yet what I have often said about word of God? For some reason this mad notion has taken root that when I say word of god it means it is forever unchangeable.

Word of God is truth until something is said that overwrites it or something happens in game that changes it.

Nothing has happened to change the 'Blood Elves are our High Elves' line in the past twelve years. In fact that is the sort of thing they would find nearly impossible to get out of anyway, because the whole point of Blood Elves is that they are High Elves.

Where the evolution in game has clearly happened is the conclusion of the plot regarding the restoration of the Sunwell. If the spin on high elves was that Blood Elves were mana vampires...and if they are no longer mana vampires...then there is no longer any 'spin' at all and all they are are just bog standard high elves consistent with wider tropes.

What's ironic here is this line of thinking that in some way is dismissing the existence and prevalence of a High elf group within the Alliance.

Yes, you dissected certain context to modify the meaning of it, that's why Blood elves are not 'the true High elves of wow', since that was not what was being said in there and after all this time, with 'things moving along', we can still be seeing High elves being members of the Alliance.

Blood Elves are the true high elves of WoW. They have control of everything that defines the Blood Elves. The lands, the city, the militaries, the Sunwell itself. They are heirs to the history of their people. The Blood Elves are THE Legacy of Quel'thalas, in that everything that defined them when they bore the name high elves is their's as a Blood Elf.

As for the Alliance High Elves within the Alliance, they are an irrelevance. Too small in number to actually matter and getting less common as the years go by. How many were added in BFA? Six? And two of those were neutral mages from the Kirin Tor.

The Void Elves are the future of the thalassian elves within the Alliance, they will inevitably play a major role in the story once we move up to dealing with the cosmic threats of the Void Lords.

Yet for some reason you still argue against it.

That reason is that even you can see how the playable option could end up added into the game. It doesn't make any sense that you are so certain of it's impossibility while you feel the need to continually go against it and trying to discourage the request.

Chances are nothingness, isn't it?

Or not?

You can only lie yourself at one point or another.

Never said it was impossible. Then again, the existence of the fact it can technically happen is all that can sustain you at this point given everything Blizzard has done to prevent it happening. I mean, besides giving the high elves to the Horde in the first place, they keep saying no AND they created Void Elves when the perfect opportunity to give Alliance High Elves arose.

It's never really appreciated how much Void Elves are as big a barrier to Alliance High Elves as Blood Elves are, as not only would Alliance High Elves undermine their role in the Alliance, but Void Elves offer Blizzard other options such as the 'normal-ish' skin tones those more open about the aesthetic desire underpinning the request keep going on about it such as DeicideUH.

Far from Blizzard offering Alliance High Elves, they are more likely (more likely does not mean possible, it means more likely than a near impossibility) to take the cheaper and more lore friendly route of doing something to the Void Elves to make them palatable to the vocal hardcore.

Which of course, is STILL a Void Elf and not an Alliance High Elf.

You don't have to repeat things i already know, love.

You keep dropping love into your replies at random points. At first I thought it was to creep me out, but now I am starting to think you might, weirdly, be developing a thing for me. Are these huge replies to my posts an attempt to engage my attention? I'm not interested Aldo, sorry to break your heart.

Let's get real, you are just repeating yourself to add some kind of substance to a substance-less statement since you already know how much well versed i am in this topic.

Actually I think your grasp on this topic is hugely flawed, but you did ask.

'Every single action since' are just void words you use to make it seem more meaningful.

Let me guess, void words are unacceptable, you want alliance high words?

You are not a developer, you are not there seeing what they talk about and what they do, you can't assert a comment like that as if you had some kind of privileged information, which you clearly don't have.

Also, don't mix up Ion's words, please. He would get pissed off if he found someone taking his well though phrases in an interview talking about factions in the ambit of gameplay and moving those into lore, which he didn't in the interview you are referring to.

No I am not a developer. All I have is their words. Things like

'Blood Elves are High Elves'

'Void Elves are another flavour of High Elf'

'Void Elves...give something that feels like a Blood Elf but has a unique flavour of it's own to the Alliance'.

All very straightforward, all very consistent. The reason we deep dive these comments isn't because I am engaged in some search for a hidden meaning, but the pro High Elf community dissects them in an attempt to prove that what he was clearly saying, he actually somehow meant the opposite.

Also, the faction diversity comment he made in the Q&A is not an intrinsic truth, that's what someone against HE would take into account without putting much effort into it since you can't add into that or find another way. A thing those who support the request have been doing all this time. Showing and demonstrating that 'faction diversity' is a concept that doesn't work for everything and is not so stagnant as some would want it to be.

As I said, your grasp of this argument is deeply flawed, so I'll have to repeat things you SHOULD already know.

For someone who expresses familiarity with my arguments, you do a terrible job of rebutting them.

Claiming that Ion's faction diversity line can't be added onto is a particularly egregious.

Ghostcrawler's tweet in 2013 expressed that he was not a fan of adding Pandaren to both the Alliance and Horde because of the impact on faction neutrality.
Since MOP, no neutral races were added.
The Allied race system removes the advantages of the neutral race system i.e. halving development time in creating a set of levelling zones and a male and female model because levelling zones aren't required and a re-skin can be applied to existing models.
Alliance High Elves were rejected on the grounds of faction diversity.
Void Elves were created in their place.

So far from not 'being added onto', Ion's comments are actually the logical expression of a design philosophy that respects the divisions between Alliance and Horde and can best be summed as 'it matters'.

And where can you find something about it?

Lack of proof is not demonstration. Both of us don't have access to that juicy internal daily office talks and big fish reunions.

What you are doing is tracing lines to form a conspiracy that determines anything you could feel go against the HE request.

You cannot make such assertions, as i said a bit up in this response, while you don't have -actual- information about it. Neither do i because that's something that is happening inside the kitchen, and we ain't no chef. So asking for inside Blizzard information cannot be taken as more than a escapegoat to not show the truth: That you don't have any given proof about what you talk about in this regard.

What conspiracy? They told you no and they told you why, which by the way is fairly concrete proof. They told you the faction divide mattered in 2013 and they told you mattered in 2018. If it's a conspiracy it's a pretty rubbish one considering they've been this open about it.

The reason it is so easy to rubbish the HE request isn't because I am making stuff up. It's because the developers don't want to do Alliance High Elves and are pretty open as to why.

Faction diversity is a design philosophy that makes for interesting takes about the game in many of it's facets, but from there to think that it is as stagnant as a frozen gum is just being too wishful. Given your interests on maintaining a concept that is already set in a way that could be changed without problems.

The most important question is: Is the concept of 'faction identity' fully fleshed out? Of course not.

Don't forget that Pandaren exist and the game didn't got snapped by the infinity gauntlet.

So faction diversity isn't an important design philosophy because...well, because if it is important you can't have Alliance High Elves. Hmm, I think you might be biased when discussing this particular topic, so you saying it's not important might not be reliable. Or even noteworthy.

Faction diversity ISN'T immutable either. They very well might change it. But they won't change it to give the Alliance access to Alliance High Elves. A shift of that magnitude means one thing really, the removal of grouping restrictions between Alliance and Horde.

So who knows, one day you might play that high elf with your Alliance buddies. It won't be an Alliance High Elf though, it'll be as a Blood Elf.

High elves are not playable, Blood elves are.

Mixing the names of the groups with the name of the race is not gonna make it true, it's still the same lie.

Sorry if Chris Metzen calls Blood Elves high elves and if Ion Hazzikostas does the same, I'm taking my cue from then rather than yourself.

Which didn't finished the request for HE.

Why is it?

Oh yeah, because they are not the High elves.

Described as another flavour of high elves, every Void Elf was at one stage a high elf. Some of them even skipped the blood elf stage and went straight to being Void Elves, as the high elf wayfarers attest.

You have literally based your last posts with your opinion and interpretation of things.

The arrogance of thinking that you have the truth on everything that is being said is shameless to say the least.

Just face it, most of the discussion surrounding the HE debate is personal views and interpretations. You not acknowledging it doesn't make you holding more levels of truth, just thinking that you are more right than anyone else.

It is not my problem that your side has zero evidence to support your claims, but the anti High Elf side has plentiful evidence to support ours. In fact, we have all the evidence. Developer interviews, quotes, books, all of which points to the one truth.

That Blood Elves are High Elves, that High Elves are playable, that Void Elves are a compromise given to the Alliance, and that keeping the factions distinct is important to Blizzard.

Since there is nothing of value in this quote and only a desire to show despite i'm just gonna ignore it and not give a proper answer.

Wait I thought that was what you were doing this whole time. You know, with the whole ignoring evidence when presented despite demanding evidence routine?
As for the statement, it's true. The run up to every Blizzcon sees the pro High Elf community fool themselves into thinking it is going to happen, and then it doesn't.

This is just another of your interpretations, since you cannot give any information about your wishful stance that HE are never going to happen and it's just a cherrypicking of things about Void elves to end into a convenient conclusion.

I can't give any information beyond the developer ruling it out twice in six months, the continuous reference to high elves being too low in population, the introduction of a variant to the Alliance clearly intended as a replacement...

If they didn't wanted to add High elves, they could had easily right out told that and it would had end by now.

But guess what, they didn't.

- - - Updated - - -

If that's the case, then it just proves how horrible is void elf lore.

A purposeless, loreless mess so low quality there's no way to consider it a compromise.

It is the case, your entire scenario is predicated on sorting out your own grievances with the Void Elves. What you came up with is what you would do to fix your concerns.

Still doesn't make Void Elves any less a compromise. You wanted a thalassian elf on the Alliance, you got one.

And I told you, years and years ago, before most of the people commenting here joined this topic, back in those huge slobberknocker threads around WOD, that if the Alliance got thalassian elves they would be modified. You seemed fine with the idea at the time but I guess the proof of that was in the pudding.

[Ielenia]

Dev opinion IS holy word

No. No, it is not. Developer opinion is just that: an opinion. It is especially telling since the pandaren happened in spite of Ghostcrawler's opinion on the subject.

Ion Hazzikostas (after explaining that Blood Elves ARE High Elves) said: 'Giving that race directly to the Alliance I think would have blurred a lot of the lines between the two factions'...which is the same line of thinking Ghostcrawler was expressing unhappiness over, giving the same race to both Horde and Alliance.

Whoa!

That is a big load of cow patty you're dropping there. Have you read Ghostcrawler's tweet on that subject matter? Not just that single on that is passed around? I mean, just look at this one: "Read all of the tweets above for people who thought it did have negative side effects."

And none of the "tweets above" even come close to mentioning anything like "blurring faction lines".

- - - Updated - - -

Still doesn't make Void Elves any less a compromise.

It can't be "any less of a compromise" because it was never a compromise in the first place. Unless you're admitting Blizzard is more out of touch with reality than someone OD'ing on LSD.

You wanted a thalassian elf on the Alliance, you got one.

Stop with the dishonesty. We don't want a thalassian elf on the Alliance. We want the thalassian elf that already exists in the Alliance.

[Alanar]

I think I asked this before, but can't they add high elf like skin and hair colour for the void elves and we could all move on?

No, fair skinned elves are part of the horde like many have said already.

There is indeed just 1 real group of high elves with some meaning which is the silver covenant, they are *sided* with the alliance and not IN the alliance. There are no other high elf groups within the alliance.

[Ielenia]

No, fair skinned elves are part of the horde like many have said already.

And part of the Alliance, like many have said already, too.

There is indeed just 1 real group of high elves with some meaning which is the silver covenant, they are *sided* with the alliance and not IN the alliance. There are no other high elf groups within the alliance.

Vereesa Windrunne calling Varian Wrynn "my king" kind of says otherwise.

But just out of curiosity: do you consider the Sunreavers as not a part of the Horde?

[Obelisk Kai]

No. No, it is not. Developer opinion is just that: an opinion. It is especially telling since the pandaren happened in spite of Ghostcrawler's opinion on the subject.

It's not telling at all considering his response was given to a question how he felt it had worked out. How can he have felt it didn't work out if they hadn't tried it? That's how he knew it didn't work.

Whoa!

That is a big load of cow patty you're dropping there. Have you read Ghostcrawler's tweet on that subject matter? Not just that single on that is passed around? I mean, just look at this one: "Read all of the tweets above for people who thought it did have negative side effects."

And none of the "tweets above" even come close to mentioning anything like "blurring faction lines".

That particular tweet is a guy responding to the original tweet who stated that there were no negative side effects. Ghostcrawler's response was that if you read the tweets above you would see some players felt there were negative consequences. Ghostcrawler certainly felt there were negative consequences.

And yes, I did contact Ghostcrawler years later after he left Blizzard and asked him about how this tweet impacted high elves and in his response he cited faction diversity.

Which of course either yourself or Alixie will attack because I have made a clear point that the words of someone who doesn't work for Blizzard anymore cannot be taken as being meaningful when compared with a current employee. Which is absolutely true.

But I will attempt to add in a nuanced explanation before the inevitable smear of hypocrisy is deployed. The nuance being, I asked specifically asked about how he felt about Alliance High Elves in the context of his 2013 tweet. In the same way you can go and ask a journalist for their opinion on a story they wrote for a newspaper years ago that they no longer work for, and their commentary on that story would still have merit, I went and asked Ghostcrawler for additional context on his 2013 tweet in regards to Alliance High Elves. And he stated faction diversity.

Had I asked Ghostcrawler's opinion in the there and then, without reference to a comment made when he worked for Blizzard, then his commentary would be absolutely redundant on this topic and I would not have used it.

And as for it being Ghostcrawler's opinion in 2013 and not that of the team, I would point we STILL have had no neutral races added since despite several opportunities to add them and that in 2018 Alliance High Elves were rejected on the grounds of faction diversity, the big complaint Ghostcrawler had with Pandaren. Maybe it was his opinion, but he clearly wasn't alone in holding it.

It can't be "any less of a compromise" because it was never a compromise in the first place. Unless you're admitting Blizzard is more out of touch with reality than someone OD'ing on LSD.

They gave you something you wanted just not in the way you wanted it. They did this because of their internal red lines which they took the time to explain to you. Far from being out of touch, I think they really tried.

And with Void Elves being the most popular allied race, it's hard to argue they failed considering the presence of a hardcore upset at not getting everything exactly the way they wanted is pretty much what happens with everything they do.

Void Elves are not only a compromise, they are a successful compromise, one that got Blizzard all that $$$ pro High Elfers kept telling them was theirs for the taking AND they didn't have to break the factions to do it.

Blizzard have their cake and they have eaten it.

Stop with the dishonesty. We don't want a thalassian elf on the Alliance. We want the thalassian elf that already exists in the Alliance.

Void Elves are thalassian elves. They now exist in the Alliance. So you got them.

I mean, Void Elves ARE a thing now. You can't go around pretending they aren't. And they are actually IN the Alliance, whereas the Silver Covenant Elves are aligned to the Alliance rather than in it. A small but important distinction.

[Alanar]

And part of the Alliance, like many have said already, too.


Vereesa Windrunne calling Varian Wrynn "my king" kind of says otherwise.

But just out of curiosity: do you consider the Sunreavers as not a part of the Horde?

They might be part of the alliance, but they are stationed in dalaran which is a neutral city, I believe that didnt realy change.
Maybe vereesa feels that way back when varian was alive, but you know it kinda feels like dark iron dwarves who were seen sided with allaince until bfa came and they joined formerly. High elves never got that and probably never will be.
Sunreavers are part of the horde and same with high elves were seen fighting with the horde( some of them) but I think Aethas wants to stay neutral possible or else he will be kicked out again.

You might think they are part of the alliance( talking about skin)
But Ion said the fair skinned lves are part of the horde (playable) so I guess that is saying enough.

[Ielenia]

It's not telling at all considering his response was given to a question how he felt it had worked out. How can he have felt it didn't work out if they hadn't tried it? That's how he knew it didn't work.

Except: one, he never goes into detail about what didn't work for him; and two, it's just his opinion.

That particular tweet is a guy responding to the original tweet who stated that there were no negative side effects. Ghostcrawler's response was that if you read the tweets above you would see some players felt there were negative consequences. Ghostcrawler certainly felt there were negative consequences.

Except Ghostcrawler simply points out to the "tweets above"-- in which not a single one mentions anything remotely close to "faction lines/identity"-- which implies that those tweets reflect his own opinion. If they didn't, I imagine he'd likely have added his own.

And yes, I did contact Ghostcrawler years later after he left Blizzard and asked him about how this tweet impacted high elves and in his response he cited faction diversity.

And... is there any record of this conversation, or is this something we cannot verify, and so has zero informative value because it could just be you making stuff up?

They gave you something you wanted

They did not. Simple as that.

If you want a slice of chocolate cake, but your parents instead give you a slice of strawberry cake, or a glass of chocolate milk, that is not your parents "giving you something you wanted."

Void Elves are thalassian elves. They now exist in the Alliance. So you got them.

We got void elves. But we did not get high elves, which is what we have been asking since vanilla WoW. Stop dishonestly conflating the two.

- - - Updated - - -

You might think they are part of the alliance( talking about skin)

I'm going to stop responding to you right here because you've made it clear you're putting zero effort in trying to understand the reasons people want high elves.

[Alanar]

Except: one, he never goes into detail about what didn't work for him; and two, it's just his opinion.


Except Ghostcrawler simply points out to the "tweets above"-- in which not a single one mentions anything remotely close to "faction lines/identity"-- which implies that those tweets reflect his own opinion. If they didn't, I imagine he'd likely have added his own.


And... is there any record of this conversation, or is this something we cannot verify, and so has zero informative value because it could just be you making stuff up?


They did not. Simple as that.

If you want a slice of chocolate cake, but your parents instead give you a slice of strawberry cake, or a glass of chocolate milk, that is not your parents "giving you something you wanted."


We got void elves. But we did not get high elves, which is what we have been asking since vanilla WoW. Stop dishonestly conflating the two.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm going to stop responding to you right here because you've made it clear you're putting zero effort in trying to understand the reasons people want high elves.

Sorry, but this is what has been said .. cant realy change that.
Besides its not like you put any effort in understsnding why this isnt happening. I hope you do know that it will greatly hurt the faction identity in the end (see the pandaren discussion) I realy dont want to see that getting worse with void elves already kinda doing that in a way.

[ChampionChains]

Just popping in to show my support for NO high elfs.

Same.

Can't believe high elf threads are still a thing. I hope we get them only to spite people who won't fucking let it go already.

[Obelisk Kai]

Except: one, he never goes into detail about what didn't work for him; and two, it's just his opinion.

One, the clear implication from the original question (How do you feel about giving Pandaren to both Horde and Alliance) is that the query was based around faction diversity. Something Ghostcrawler later confirmed in my tweet to him.

Secondly, saying it's 'his opinion' is a naked attempt to denigrate what he said. As a senior developer at the time on World of Warcraft. Why do you think the guy messaged him by the way? You think he just wanted Ghostcrawler's opinion?

He messaged Ghostcrawler because, as a developer, Ghostcrawler's opinion had weight and merit. It MEANT something.

And... is there any record of this conversation, or is this something we cannot verify, and so has zero informative value because it could just be you making stuff up?

Please find the image of the conversation here with identifying details removed.

https://ibb.co/6tHJFZT


I don't need to make stuff up by the way, I present the evidence, pro High Elfers then attempt to argue why the evidence doesn't count, I argue why they are wrong. In an ideal world at that point pro High Elfers would then present THEIR evidence and I would argue against that but as none exists I feel I am continually on defense. Oh well.

They did not. Simple as that.

If you want a slice of chocolate cake, but your parents instead give you a slice of strawberry cake, or a glass of chocolate milk, that is not your parents "giving you something you wanted."


We got void elves. But we did not get high elves, which is what we have been asking since vanilla WoW. Stop dishonestly conflating the two.

You got cake. And as someone who has followed this debate for a long time, I can assure you this outcome was entirely predictable in that if they ever did give the Alliance thalassian elves, it would be a variant. And we were proven right.

I'm going to stop responding to you right here because you've made it clear you're putting zero effort in trying to understand the reasons people want high elves.

You mean attempting to convince me that this isn't primarily about a skin tone?

Accept Void Elves and play one as a High Elf which has converted to the void and I'd accept your argument that that is what you wanted. As you won't, it's clearly about the aesthetic, and everything else is clearly just a palatable fig leaf designed to disguise a complaint that is infinitely shallow.

[Pheraz]

No, fair skinned elves are part of the horde like many have said already.

There is indeed just 1 real group of high elves with some meaning which is the silver covenant, they are *sided* with the alliance and not IN the alliance. There are no other high elf groups within the alliance.

I'm not talking about logic or story lol.
If it would be about logic... No let's not start.
I'm talking about getting done with this debate.
It wouldn't need to be the exact belf tones. Just a bit less voidy for hair and skin.

[Ielenia]

Sorry, but this is what has been said .. cant realy change that.

Yes, and what you said was stupid. It's not about skin color.

[Aldo Hawk]

That retort makes no sense, the syntax is mangled and I cannot decipher your meaning.

You took advantage of my ban, you can lie others, but you can only lie yourself at the end.

Alliance High Elves say they would be happy with something 'similar'. Void Elves are similar to Blood/High Elves, yet are unacceptable. Suggestions for 'acceptable' all seem to revolve around the same skin tones and hair colours as a Blood Elf but with makeup and different hairtstyles. That isn't similar, that is functionally identical.

A Void Elf is everything but what a High elf is.

Is not similar, it's different.

Your delusion is strong in this one. You can't lie and expect to be taken as truth.

The faction divide was damaged by Pandaren as they undermined the diversity of both factions. However, Pandaren were conceived of as neutral, introduced to both factions at the same time and their entire plotline was based around their neutrality and balance. The damage was thus contained.

Making a race that has been Horde exclusive for over a decade similarly neutral would deal magnitudes more damage to faction diversity. Something Blizzard clearly recognizes as that was the reason Alliance High Elves were rejected over and Void Elves created in their stead.

This keeps being only your interpretation and opinion.

I'm sorry, you can't find any of the post vanilla races added to the game on the character creator? Are you sure you are looking?

I though we were talking about other popular requests in this one but the posts are too long, of course i can find those, but can you find a High Elf in Dalaran? Seems like not.

Anyway, where are any of the other race requests that were such a blast? Do you think because we can't see right now a Forest troll or an Ogre or a Wildhammer Dwarf in the selection screen means they will never be? Seriously. Omegalul.

I really don't know what you mean by this, I have been clear that faction identity is derived from it's membership and that each race expands the identity of the respective faction.

You didn't knew what i mean and in same breath express what i have expressed, genius.

High Elves are members of the Alliance, thanks for supporting.

Dev opinion IS holy word as far as the people debating it are concerned, as the only thing that contradicts what a developer says is a developer in future saying something that overwrites it.

Dev opinion is Dev opinion and they can be wrong. As you linked below in that inverview with Ion Hazzikostas where he doesn't acknowledge major hubs of High Elves. That's wrong since we know where they are.

As for nobody adding anything to this matter in all these years...

Ion Hazzikostas (after explaining that Blood Elves ARE High Elves) said: 'Giving that race directly to the Alliance I think would have blurred a lot of the lines between the two factions'...which is the same line of thinking Ghostcrawler was expressing unhappiness over, giving the same race to both Horde and Alliance.

Changing goalposts much? Nobody added anything about Pandaren and 'neutrality' (which is by itself a wrong word since Pandaren are not neutral when choosing a side or HE and BE are not currently neutral) being not desiderable.

What I guess might be possible is that neutrality might be something they try again as long as the race is, like the Pandaren, both brand new introduced to both factions at the same time. But the Blood Elves, who are High Elves, are now so closely intertwined with the Horde that duplicating that race to the Alliance crosses a major red line.

Blood Elves and High Elves are not neutral, they are pretty much sided with their factions.

What kind of research do you have to show it is wrong? Stating that Alliance High Elves would do more damage to faction diversity than the Pandaren is common sense.

This is funny because you happen to be the one who comes here saying that you are the only one with 'sources' but then doesn't acknowledge the existence of Pandaren.

There is no research to be made about this, Pandaren exists and they didn't broke anything. I know you are tired to be told about them. That doesn't make them less important or a proof subject.

Population is an issue, as Blizzard cite it again and again and again when asked about Alliance High Elves.

You have been told why that doesn't hold any ground. Grow up.

Demon Hunters and Death Knights are classes, not races. The argument does not apply.

Playable ones. How many of them could be? Illidan followers that indulge themselves into highly self damaging training? A flying fortress?

As for your racial examples, that only holds if you consider Alliance High Elves as having an equivalent population to any example you offer. The real takeaway is that, if all the races you've mentoned have endured that and the population issue doesn't apply to them, just how LOW is the Alliance High Elf population after all?

Enough to still exist and be seen making military effort, having civilian life, participating in certain institutions and being seen around the world.

I can't because there is only one alliance high elf organization of any meaning, the Silver Covenant. The Silver Covenant is Alliance aligned, but not a part of the Alliance, as they are based in the neutral city of Dalaran. So it's a good thing you said 'sided with' rather than 'in' as the answer to that is 'none'. There are no high elven organizations within the Alliance.

You can't but in same breath state that the are no high elf organizations within the Alliance.

They are alliance, there is nothing you can do to change that fact, just accept it.

Why is the game somehow incomplete without them? The game has been running successfully for a decade and a half and Alliance High Elves aren't playable. But Blood Elves are...and as Blood Elves are High Elves, then that major race from Warcraft 2 has been playable for a long time. So no, the game isn't incomplete. The way they added the high elves is what vexes you, their absence cannot because they are available.

The same way Dark Iron Dwarves were missing, the same way Ogres and Taunka are missing, the same way any form of Mag'har orc were missing, etc...

Those are examples of the game having incomplete factions. But you like to play devil's advocate and not acknowledging things or buying bullshit just to defend your opinion.

The Alliance got a variant in Void Elves, which have been described as 'another flavour of High Elf'. So the Alliance is missing diddly squat. As for the Horde 'missing Ogres', I don't feel the Horde is incomplete without Ogres, but then again Ogres aren't available as an Alliance race now are they? If they were you'd have an equivalent situation to the Blood Elves, and if they were I would be arguing that while Ogres WERE Horde, they are now Alliance and Horde players should let them go. But they aren't, and so aren't a point of equivalence.

At the moment, the Alliance is lacking a playable option that is presented as Alliance aligned, as much as the Horde are lacking Ogres for example.

When the answer to your question is a repetition of the thing you answered it is a bad question, and i'm being too kind with many of my responses.

Yes, yet what I have often said about word of God? For some reason this mad notion has taken root that when I say word of god it means it is forever unchangeable.

Word of God is truth until something is said that overwrites it or something happens in game that changes it.

In fact you are wrong in this one since what you were told many many times is that 'word of god' is a flawed concept since it comes from human beings that can make mistakes and there are people like you that often uses their -opinions- as facts.

It's nothing more than a twisted way to use the concept of -official-. Dev word is an official one since it comes from the source of the material in discussion.

Official sources can be opinionated about what they develop and not be 100% correct unless it's a clarification that they make or a retcon in the lore they develop.

Dev opinion is dev opinion, thank you very much.

Blood Elves are the true high elves of WoW. They have control of everything that defines the Blood Elves. The lands, the city, the militaries, the Sunwell itself. They are heirs to the history of their people. The Blood Elves are THE Legacy of Quel'thalas, in that everything that defined them when they bore the name high elves is their's as a Blood Elf.

You say this and then acknowledge the existance of more Thalassians than the Blood elves:

As for the Alliance High Elves within the Alliance, they are an irrelevance. Too small in number to actually matter and getting less common as the years go by. How many were added in BFA? Six? And two of those were neutral mages from the Kirin Tor.

This is so flawed...

They appeared nearly in every expansions, with more or less exposure. That didn't dissapeared.

In fact, the fact that they added High elves at all in BfA even after all the drama with Void Elves and High elf requests it's truly interesting, isn't it?

The Void Elves are the future of the thalassian elves within the Alliance, they will inevitably play a major role in the story once we move up to dealing with the cosmic threats of the Void Lords.

Not while there is still High elves within the Alliance.

Is this another claim with source or just your opinion/interpretation?

Never said it was impossible.

You did, and most of the time you control yourself by coming the nearest to say 'never' just in case. Because you perfectly know it is a possibility and that it has basis for it.

It's never really appreciated how much Void Elves are as big a barrier to Alliance High Elves as Blood Elves are, as not only would Alliance High Elves undermine their role in the Alliance, but Void Elves offer Blizzard other options such as the 'normal-ish' skin tones those more open about the aesthetic desire underpinning the request keep going on about it such as DeicideUH.

It has also been appreciated how much the inclusion of Void elves support their concept as a way to also introduce High elves.

In fact, one of the most clear is that a playable Thalassian is now in the Alliance, thus the silhouette and model is there and is also Alliance.

Far from Blizzard offering Alliance High Elves, they are more likely (more likely does not mean possible, it means more likely than a near impossibility) to take the cheaper and more lore friendly route of doing something to the Void Elves to make them palatable to the vocal hardcore.

'Vocal hardcore'. What do you want, to people to shut up? good luck.

Which of course, is STILL a Void Elf and not an Alliance High Elf.

Don't repeat things i already know, love.

You keep dropping love into your replies at random points. At first I thought it was to creep me out, but now I am starting to think you might, weirdly, be developing a thing for me. Are these huge replies to my posts an attempt to engage my attention? I'm not interested Aldo, sorry to break your heart.

You are also making huge replies just for me, does that mean something?

Actually I think your grasp on this topic is hugely flawed, but you did ask.

I also think you are very flawed. You are even starting what i knew you were going to do. Say that High Elves are not even Alliance.

That's the downward spiral your stance in here is being turned on.

Let me guess, void words are unacceptable, you want alliance high words?

I prefer meaningful words instead of pure filling, voided words, but whatever.

No I am not a developer. All I have is their words. Things like

'Blood Elves are High Elves'

'Void Elves are another flavour of High Elf'

'Void Elves...give something that feels like a Blood Elf but has a unique flavour of it's own to the Alliance'.

All very straightforward, all very consistent. The reason we deep dive these comments isn't because I am engaged in some search for a hidden meaning, but the pro High Elf community dissects them in an attempt to prove that what he was clearly saying, he actually somehow meant the opposite.

You really like to use the whole of the HErs to make a point don't you? Remember that the Alurna manifest and the discord are not a political thing, we discuss a lot between ourselves and more than a time we had to maintain disagreements. Using this idea that all of us are a hivemind is flawed.

'Blood Elves are High Elves' High elves still call themselves High elves, the same way their race does. And they are Alliance, not horde.

'Void Elves are another flavour of High Elf' yet it is another flavor of High elf, the race, not the group.

'Void Elves...give something that feels like a Blood Elf but has a unique flavour of it's own to the Alliance'. Yet they are not the High elves that still call themselves like that and are Alliance aligned.

There is no hidden meaning to it, just the interpretation that you want to give to it, and given your stance you are just gonna use them in your favor. That doesn't make it the real meaning of it or more true.

As I said, your grasp of this argument is deeply flawed, so I'll have to repeat things you SHOULD already know.

For someone who expresses familiarity with my arguments, you do a terrible job of rebutting them.

Claiming that Ion's faction diversity line can't be added onto is a particularly egregious.

Ghostcrawler's tweet in 2013 expressed that he was not a fan of adding Pandaren to both the Alliance and Horde because of the impact on faction neutrality.
Since MOP, no neutral races were added.
The Allied race system removes the advantages of the neutral race system i.e. halving development time in creating a set of levelling zones and a male and female model because levelling zones aren't required and a re-skin can be applied to existing models.
Alliance High Elves were rejected on the grounds of faction diversity.
Void Elves were created in their place.

So far from not 'being added onto', Ion's comments are actually the logical expression of a design philosophy that respects the divisions between Alliance and Horde and can best be summed as 'it matters'.

Faction diversity, the concept, by itself, is not only a wow thing.

Faction diversity. The meaning of it, the most simple, is 'differences between the factions'. And that can have many routes.

There is still faction diversity if certain races are in both factions, and even more if these have differences between them. And given that for now we have the exact same race without differences in both factions and nothing happened we can only conclude that there is much more than races involved in the term 'faction identity'.

What conspiracy? They told you no and they told you why, which by the way is fairly concrete proof. They told you the faction divide mattered in 2013 and they told you mattered in 2018. If it's a conspiracy it's a pretty rubbish one considering they've been this open about it.

You are constantly saying that you know they don't want to do neutral races because you correlate neutral races with having the same race between both factions.

What we have that is called a neutral race is the exact same thing in both factions. High elves would not be the exact same thing, they would be similar. Stating otherwise is going against the linear logic of AR getting new additions when added and the common knowledge that HE already have differences with the Blood elves as being in a different faction with everything that comes along and a record of changing their relationship with magic.

The reason it is so easy to rubbish the HE request isn't because I am making stuff up. It's because the developers don't want to do Alliance High Elves and are pretty open as to why.

You make stuff up with unrelated concepts or twisting things to just add where there is nothing.

So faction diversity isn't an important design philosophy because...well, because if it is important you can't have Alliance High Elves. Hmm, I think you might be biased when discussing this particular topic, so you saying it's not important might not be reliable. Or even noteworthy.

I didn't said it isn't important. I said it is not as stagnant as those who opposes HE say it to be.

Faction diversity ISN'T immutable either. They very well might change it. But they won't change it to give the Alliance access to Alliance High Elves. A shift of that magnitude means one thing really, the removal of grouping restrictions between Alliance and Horde.

Well this is again your opinion and interpretation since this is not a fact.

It's easy to see that it comes from your biased view of Blood elves being High elves and thus by a wishful manner state that 'HE' (mixing and confusing race name and group name) are playable.

It's also your opinion that the HE AR it's a 'shift of that magnitude'. How dramatic.

So who knows, one day you might play that high elf with your Alliance buddies. It won't be an Alliance High Elf though, it'll be as a Blood Elf.

I'm pretty happy with my -Sin'dorei- Aldo Hawk and i already play with the Alliance in BGs thank you very much.

Also, High elves are not Alliance. That's what you said, why did you wrote Alliance High elf yourself now?

Sorry if Chris Metzen calls Blood Elves high elves and if Ion Hazzikostas does the same, I'm taking my cue from then rather than yourself.

At least they don't confuse the terms as you and many have done many times. It's hard to think that it isn't in a purposeful way.

Described as another flavour of high elves, every Void Elf was at one stage a high elf. Some of them even skipped the blood elf stage and went straight to being Void Elves, as the high elf wayfarers attest.

Void elves are everything but a High elf of the Alliance, that's why they are still requested and you can repeat that they are another flavor all you want that it will not become true.

Also... 1:28 (it doesn't start where the link directs to).



Get the order right.

It is not my problem that your side has zero evidence to support your claims, but the anti High Elf side has plentiful evidence to support ours. In fact, we have all the evidence. Developer interviews, quotes, books, all of which points to the one truth.

Whelp, you should work on that, since you have been presented plentiful information about the matter and still repeating this.

That Blood Elves are High Elves, that High Elves are playable, that Void Elves are a compromise given to the Alliance, and that keeping the factions distinct is important to Blizzard.

I don't see any High elf in the Alliance selection screen, only this strange thing that resembles them in a vague way.

Why are all these people asking for HE if they are playable? Because Blood elves aren't Alliance, Void elves are everything but a High elf and High elves are presented within the Alliance.

Wait I thought that was what you were doing this whole time. You know, with the whole ignoring evidence when presented despite demanding evidence routine?
As for the statement, it's true. The run up to every Blizzcon sees the pro High Elf community fool themselves into thinking it is going to happen, and then it doesn't.

If your answer to them expecting anything in a Blizzcon is making fun i don't have anything kind to say.

I can't give any information beyond the developer ruling it out twice in six months, the continuous reference to high elves being too low in population, the introduction of a variant to the Alliance clearly intended as a replacement...

Void elves replacing High elves is your interpretation.

They didn't said that nor that HE will never be.

Minute 18:00 That's wrong information since we already know exactly where the HE are, there -are- mayor hubs from where they can come.

Should you trust Ion if he tells you something that you, with your own eyes can see it's not true? Of course not, that's naive.

[/QUOTE] This has been discussed so much times i can't even bother anymore. He didn't denied their existence nor stating they will never do it. Move along.

[Ielenia]

One, the clear implication from the original question (How do you feel about giving Pandaren to both Horde and Alliance) is that the query was based around faction diversity. Something Ghostcrawler later confirmed in my tweet to him.

The problem is that Ghostcrawler was then asked to clarify his opinion and he pointed to the tweets above, and none of them speak of 'faction identity being broken', much less as such being a bad thing.

Please find the image of the conversation here with identifying details removed.

https://ibb.co/6tHJFZT

I have no idea when you sent that tweet, but I'll assume that it was roughly two months ago, judging by the date you uploaded the picture. With that in mind, I'll say this: Ghostcrawler was no longer part of Blizzard since 2013, I imagine he had no input at all in the development of the void elf race, which tells me the design philosophy within Blizzard might have changed from Ghostcrawler's days.

I don't need to make stuff up by the way, I present the evidence, pro High Elfers then attempt to argue why the evidence doesn't count, I argue why they are wrong.

There's that condescending arrogance again. It's honestly grating how you act like your opinion is "objective fact" (when it's everything but) while everyone who don't agree with you are "objectively wrong".

You mean attempting to convince me that this isn't primarily about a skin tone?

You can repeat as many time as you want to claim your strawman is the "real deal", but that won't make it any less wrong.

Accept Void Elves and play one as a High Elf which has converted to the void and I'd accept your argument that that is what you wanted.

So it's "argue that I'm right and I'll accept your argument"? Nothing but more condescending arrogance from you.

[Alanar]

Yes, and what you said was stupid. It's not about skin color.

Its not.. cus clearly its about skin tones to some.
See below, are you at the same sideor whats going on here.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not talking about logic or story lol.
If it would be about logic... No let's not start.
I'm talking about getting done with this debate.
It wouldn't need to be the exact belf tones. Just a bit less voidy for hair and skin.

Right so you guys clearly know what you want lol.

[Ielenia]

Its not.. cus clearly its about skin tones to some.
See below, are you at the same sideor whats going on here.

Right so you guys clearly know what you want lol.

This is textbook, blatant dishonesty at best. Just because one, or a few, are accepting the void elf idea, it doesn't mean the entire pro-high elf community is.

[Neverafter]

The problem is there is no hive-mind and opinions vary here.

Some would be perfectly content with Void Elves having options of fairer skin and hair, etc.

Others want nothing short of the option that says "High Elf" on their Alliance character list that is a Blood Elf with blue eyes.

I would consider myself part of the first group. Unfortunately, the second group is much more vocal and stubborn.

[ddi2]

The problem is there is no hive-mind and opinions vary here.

Some would be perfectly content with Void Elves having options of fairer skin and hair, etc.

Others want nothing short of the option that says "High Elf" on their Alliance character list that is a Blood Elf with blue eyes.

I would consider myself part of the first group. Unfortunately, the second group is much more vocal and stubborn.

That just means you don't want High Elves, you want Void Elves with fair skin.

[Alanar]

This is textbook, blatant dishonesty at best. Just because one, or a few, are accepting the void elf idea, it doesn't mean the entire pro-high elf community is.

Oke dude.


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That just means you don't want High Elves, you want Void Elves with fair skin.

Yea, people in this thread dont even know what they want.

[Aldo Hawk]

That just means you don't want High Elves, you want Void Elves with fair skin.

This is so true...

A Void elf with High elf skins would be a High elf without voicelines, HE class options, racial mount, heritage armor, etc...

Not desirable in the slightest.