Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Koryn123]

It'd be neat to have a purple eye option for blood elves. Would look good with any Dalaran xmog.

[FlubberPuddy]

Lol do you really think what makes a "High Elf" is blue eyes? XD

Some people unironically believe so, as that one recent post where someone thinks there will be massive race changes from Alliance to Horde just from BE blue eyes.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

There is no point in having two factions without faction dichotomy. So long as two factions exist, those two factions should be kept unique and distinct in order that their mutual antagonism and mistrust makes sense. Should the faction system be removed, and everyone is allowed to group with everyone, then that is a clear design change that does not favour one small group over everyone else.

I just completely disagree with this statement-

-Making the dichotomy the lynchpin of the faction divide rather than choice the difference only hurts the setting at this point. The dichotomy is entirely an artificial gameplay conceit when in the lore we keep seeing races allying with the other side.

-I'm not saying the faction system should be removed; i'm saying it shouldn't be the core aspect of the gameplay experience. By loosening the faction exclusivity to a degree it allows people to actually choose a side instead of being forced to it because an aesthetic or fantasy.

-I don't get how allowing people to have more potential people to group on PvE content is a bad thing.

The faction debate is also tangential to this debate. This debate would be permanently resolved if the faction divide was removed as those who wish to play a blood elf with the desired aesthetic among Alliance players could do that. But so long as the factions exist, they matter, and so long as they matter the preservation of their diversity is an important design goal.

Disagree with this because, again, I'm not asking for faction dissolution, I'm saying the faction dichotomy should not be the central conceit of the gameplay. That does not mean factions would disappear, it would only make them less relevant. It's about making it less of a strict binary choice and actually either allowing more content to cross over, or allow the game to be played not restricted by the faction binary -be either by neutrality or "soft" belonging to a faction.

The High Elf issue is not the cause of the problem, it's just the ur example of the narrative and immersion limitations of the faction binary in a game that presumes both factions are "good" and we are to choose our side, yet only makes that choice an illusion. This would not be an issue if the dichotomy was between good an evil, but a game that pretends to ask for nuance when looking at the horde and alliance, simply cannot move forward on an archaic and anti-immersive design.

Because forcing exclusivity to either side simply is anathema of the paradigm these -horde and alliance- are political and ideological choices. You can't have one and the other.

Warcraft simply cannot keep relying on the monolithic way it looks at factions if it pretends to move forward. As I said, BfA stretched the credibility of faction "choice" to its limits.

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I personally still don't see this as a full blown NO for HEs, in the end, they can just get new models, i mean... we have Nozdormu human form, that's a HE but its using the Night Elf skeleton, so i could see they just doing something like this sometime in the future, i don't expect it SOON but still...

Some people unironically believe so, as that one recent post where someone thinks there will be massive race changes from Alliance to Horde just from BE blue eyes.

I think the answer has solidily been no for a while; the point is that Pro-HE hope that position changes on the future. Blood Elves changes little for the people that want HE's for their specific lore background. If a Thalassian Elf gets blue eyes but it's Horde, that's just not what people have asked for. So unless all the remaining HE's on the alliance switch sides, the request won't stop.

[Strippling]

Stop trolling please.

Arthas was no longer a member of the Alliance when he did these atrocities and you know it. That doesn't mean the Alliance doesn't express regrets.

Double standards are at play here. So it's bad (according to Manariel) that the blood elves joined orcs and trolls (who were but are not now, or never were members of the old Horde) but nevermind Arthas because "he was no longer a member of the Alliance".

[Kallisto]

Double standards are at play here. So it's bad (according to Manariel) that the blood elves joined orcs and trolls (who were but are not now, or never were members of the old Horde) but nevermind Arthas because "he was no longer a member of the Alliance".

I'm not even sure Darkspear were even members of the defunct old horde. The ones that were we gave a beating to twice in BC and Cata. And again in MoP (Amani tribe)

[Strippling]

I haven't read the last few pages so I dont know if this has been posted already, but here is an intersting bit from Danuser interview:



Alleria skin tone for void elves seems more and more likely. Blizzard wants the player to roleplay however they want, so even if the world around you will still treat you as a void elf, you are freely entitled to RP as a high elf and pick a pink skin tone for void elves.

Danuser's comments don't overwrite their previous comments that they want to maintain faction distinction and avoid blurring factions lines. So I imagine any customization options they come up with will obviously have that in mind, especially with ARs who are already a variant customization of an existing core race. Likely when it comes to void elves they'll have to consider how can they ensure the blood elf aesthetic and thematic remains unique to the blood elves, while offering more options for void elves. Additional Void elf options (when they do come) will likely include different hairstyles, tattoos, accessories, possibly different shades of blue/purple/maybe black eyes. I highly doubt they'll intrude onto the blood elf aesthetic though of human skin tones and light hair (kinda goes against the whole void theme).

[FossilFree]

I still think half-elves would be a nice addition in place of High Elves. Hell, Alliance Silver Covenant High Elves have intermingled with humans so much that they are pretty much the half-elf faction already. Elisande told us as much too.

Plus half-elves would get that sweet Wrathion and/or Kalecgos model, which I would rather play as personally anyways.

[Manariel]

Double standards are at play here. So it's bad (according to Manariel) that the blood elves joined orcs and trolls (who were but are not now, or never were members of the old Horde) but nevermind Arthas because "he was no longer a member of the Alliance".

The Forsakens are litteraly the dudes who ate Quel'dorei's brains when Arthas atatcked Quel'thalas. And the freaking Horde has been choke-full of orcish veterans of the First and Second War. It may be a "new" Horde, but with the same organization, ideology and warriors as the old one, it don't get a get out of jail free card.

[Maxilian]

It'd be neat to have a purple eye option for blood elves. Would look good with any Dalaran xmog.

I'm more into the Red eyes, but also the red eyes make me kind of sad cause that make San'layn more and more unlikely to come in the future

[Traycor]

The Forsakens are litteraly the dudes who ate Quel'dorei's brains when Arthas atatcked Quel'thalas. And the freaking Horde has been choke-full of orcish veterans of the First and Second War. It may be a "new" Horde, but with the same organization, ideology and warriors as the old one, it don't get a get out of jail free card.

Also, don't forget that Arthas was literally possessed by an orc. That's what made him the Lich King. In many ways, it was the orc Nerzuel that destroyed Quel'Thalas.

[Maxilian]

The Forsakens are litteraly the dudes who ate Quel'dorei's brains when Arthas atatcked Quel'thalas. And the freaking Horde has been choke-full of orcish veterans of the First and Second War. It may be a "new" Horde, but with the same organization, ideology and warriors as the old one, it don't get a get out of jail free card.

Well... its a little unfair to count the Forsaken, i mean... not like they really wanted to do that, i mean... the whole Arthas thing is what connect the Forsaken and the Blood Elf, before the NB were a thing on the Horde, the Forsaken were the faction with the best relationship with the Blood Elf (I mean... if you start as a Blood Elf, the Forsaken are the only Horde faction that start with a good reputation)

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Also, don't forget that Arthas was literally possessed by an orc. That's what made him the Lich King. In many ways, it was the orc Nerzuel that destroyed Quel'Thalas.

To be fair, i doubt ANYONE on Quelthalas actually know this

[Xath]

My headcanon for the blue eyed elves living in Quel'thalas and identifying with the current Blood Elves is that they were high elf pilgrims from across Azeroth or possibly from Allerian Stronghold in Outland, come to the Sunwell to meet Captain Auric Sunchaser and see that Quel'thalas is at least halfway restored, they feel a greater kinship with the blood elves than they do dwarves or humans, and decide to live in Quel'thalas again, with some becoming adventurers who serve the Horde sometimes, as long as it's in the interests of Quel'thalas.

Auric Sunchaser strikes me as the best example of a high elf. He comes back from his long campaign in Outland, but rather than sanctimoniously going on and on about the Alliance and its human masters, he remains true to his duty to protect Quel'thalas and its people, even though his people are no longer part of the temporary team they used to be on, and seeing that the High Elf pilgrims had no voice, he elected to represent them himself and work to secure them a place in Quel'thalas where they belong. Nothing at all like Alleria or Vereesa (a grunt ranger who quit the Farstriders after her first mission and now calls herself a ranger-general, btw). Seems like of all the prominent high elf characters, Auric is the only one to put his people before a temporary team-up that was a means to protect his people. Alleria has it backwards.

I wouldn't be surprised if Auric and/or many of the high elf pilgrims decided that they'd rather live safe in Quel'thalas than sit as oddballs in human cities or be roped into Horde/Alliance conflicts all the time. I could easily see Auric and several high elves taking the name Blood Elves, and to prove their loyalty, helping to kill the undead and the trolls where any remain. Perhaps even taking it on themselves to rebuild some stuff in the Ghostlands. Without that, the High Elves are sort of like the guy who's happy to eat at the potluck without bringing anything, since none of them lifted a finger to save Quel'thalas, while the Blood Elves were the ones who gave all their blood, sweat, and tears into surviving there and reclaiming it. It'd be nice to have some group of uncorrupted elves return to the fold and show that some are willing to move on with their lives, rather than make their purpose be "I hate the blood elves and the Horde and that's literally it."

The high elves peaced out when blood elves starting using fel had nothing to do with "not lifting a finger" why in the hell would these supposed pilgrims join the horde that just finished the genocide of another elven race reducing them to non viability in terms of genetic diversity. The purposeful parallels to what happened to the blood elves are pretty damn obvious and it's shocking that no blood elves said wait stop.

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No horde leader has singled out trying to kill the blood elves.

The old horde of Blackhand and Doomhammer is considered a different entity (blizzard own words) they don't count.
Garrosh war started by the alliance (Varian hate boner after wrathgate where he knew it wasn't the horde that attacked both sides)
Sylvanas war started by the alliance (If you think somehow there was a peace treaty between Gen's attack and burning of Teldrasil you're insane)

Meanwhile, the alliance of Lordaeron IS the same entity as now (again Blizzard own blue posts) have attacked Quel'thalas for their own.
Garithos was as the highest-ranked lord of Lordaeron known at the time was the leader of the alliance. His actions of "How dare you not die, time to be executed." strike one.
Blood Elf start zone when the dwarf was meant to be an ambassador to bring Quel'thalas into the alliance was actually a leader of an alliance invasion force that sabotaged the only defense against the scourge. Strike 2 for being a spy not an ambassador, strike 3 for actions that would obviously lead to the extinction of Thalassians who were at the time neutral. (The horde doesn't start helping until long after that point.).

Defending high elf is basically being kicked in the balls, have your teeth on the curb and stomped on twice and your reaction is "Thank you sir may i have another."

Arthas was possessed by an orc rofl. You can't use in game after decisions have been made to justify. Blizzard put that whole hackneyed thing in as an attempt to justify giving the horde a pretty race that happened to be one the alliance had begged for since open beta.

[Frenchvince]

https://youtu.be/G54IIK2zYJs

Even if the blood elves have the disgusting blue eyes that we saw on wowhead, they have nothing to do with those of the "real high elves".
In any case, I can't wait to see the update of the high elves NPCs that is underway in the alpha.

[Strippling]

I still think half-elves would be a nice addition in place of High Elves. Hell, Alliance Silver Covenant High Elves have intermingled with humans so much that they are pretty much the half-elf faction already. Elisande told us as much too.

Plus half-elves would get that sweet Wrathion and/or Kalecgos model, which I would rather play as personally anyways.

I could get behind a half elf option. It's unique and fitting, especially as you pointed out Elisande recognized the dilution of the "elf" line amongst them

[Obelisk Kai]

Actually in the previous question Danuser answers that "nothing in these options being presented that I felt was out of bounds with the story we're trying to tell or the way we're trying to express it. It's really about giving players the most freedom possible rather than trying to tell some specific narrative about them, and really giving players the way to hopefully realize their characters that might've been in their head before and they weren't able to get it on the screen. Now they can get those things on screen. So that's what's really exciting for us.

I know there's people who are tripping up on some of the things, or asking questions about it or getting stuck on things. But this is something we want to happen, we want to be expressed in the world, we want Azeroth to feel like this place that has all these options in it and that your character is a great way to express those things."

As he emphasizes if you actually watched the interview instead of reading the short blurbs on wowhead, it's more about giving players freedom in their options rather than trying to get a specific narrative told.

I did watch the video. My conclusion stands. His point is that the specific origins people have in their heads for their characters don't need an in-game explanation, they just are. These options exist in the name of player choice.

BUT he also emphasised that each of these options was ran past him to see if they would cause any unworkable issues in lore. None of them did.
And do you know what I don't see being offered? Dark Iron Dwarf skins on Dwarves. Or Mag'har Orc skins on Orcs.

Using your interpretation, a player should be able to portray themselves as a Dark Iron Dwarf or a Mag'har Orc using an ordinary Dwarf or Orc despite those options already being in use by several Allied races.

Player interpretation only goes so far and it is circumscribed by the options available on the character creator. A Dwarf who wishes to roleplay as a Wildhammer now has the tools to do that. But any Dwarf who argued they were really a Dark Iron Dwarf would invite only mirth.

From Danuser's own mouth: "..remember that it is your choice and your character..don't let anyone else tell you what your character can or can't be. You decide that."

So you can actually stop trying to force your opinion of a player's opinion about their own character. "Word of God" states the owner of such character defines that themselves.

As I've said before, a player can have their own opinion about their own character, but attempting to pretend the rest of the game world should agree with it is where the issue is. After all, if you interpret everything Danuser says to mean there ARE no limits, then there is nothing stopping you from pretending your Void Elf is an uncorrupted High Elf exile right this moment. These 'high elf like' skins you keep asking for are unnecessary to living out this particular fantasy.

I mean the skins are ultimately going to do nothing to facilitate this choice. The suspension of disbelief required to believe you are a High Elf exile whilst playing a Void Elf with uncorrupted skintones is still going to be too great. Racial procs, emotes, the void enhanced reverb, the reaction from certain NPCs in the Catherdral in Stormwind, all will conspire to shatter that suspension of disbelief anyway. So if you argue that you can handle that which is also innate to a Void Elf and won't be changing, then you can handle the skin tones for Void Elves still existing outside the human range whilst you pretend to be a high elf exile.

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Ion also said offstage to someone that the door hasn't closed on High Elves on Alliance.

You mean that time he decided not to ruin someone's day and was nice to him? A friend of mine used to work for Blizzard, did the worldwide invitational back in 2008 in Paris and said it's just normal floor walking interactions. Vague and non-committal so as not to cause a scene or a row on the forums they haven't anticipated.

I mean all he said was what he said in the two rejections, albeit nicer, with no snark and a variation of 'anything possible in the future'. Absolute definition of false hope if you are still peddling that one in my opinion.

[Aucald]

Also, don't forget that Arthas was literally possessed by an orc. That's what made him the Lich King. In many ways, it was the orc Nerzuel that destroyed Quel'Thalas.

Arthas was possessed by an orc rofl. You can't use in game after decisions have been made to justify. Blizzard put that whole hackneyed thing in as an attempt to justify giving the horde a pretty race that happened to be one the alliance had begged for since open beta.

Well, Arthas wasn't "possessed" by Ner'zhul - although he was under Ner'zhul's control via Frostmourne. Ner'zhul at that point wasn't an Orc anymore, either; torture and transformation at the hands of Kil'jaeden had turned him into the first Lich, albeit one sealed into the cask of nether ice that became known as the Frozen Throne. Blizzard also didn't put anything in as any form of after-the-fact justification or change, the Lich King Ner'zhul and Arthas' fate with Frostmourne were all part of the story of WC3 and WC3: TFT back in 2002-2003. That is the story of the original WC3 games.

[Obelisk Kai]

Also, don't forget that Arthas was literally possessed by an orc. That's what made him the Lich King. In many ways, it was the orc Nerzuel that destroyed Quel'Thalas.

No, that isn't what happened. What makes Arthas' tragedy so powerful is that he did it to himself. Sure, the Lich King constructed a path for Arthas that resulted in his damnation, but Arthas had to take each step along the way himself. And at each step he had friends, comrades and allies who were all begging him not to take each individual action. Uther, Jaina, Muradin, had he heeded any of them at any point in his journey he would have found redemption.

But he was so short sighted that he didn't fully consider the consequences of his actions, only that the ends on each occasion justified the means. And with each bad choice, the next bad choice became easier to make. So no, he wasn't possessed by Ner'zhul, and he never was possessed by Ner'zhul (what came later was a weird mixing, merger). Instead, he did it entirely to himself which is why he clearly ended up in the maw after this death and is rightly suffering for his actions.

[FlubberPuddy]

BUT he also emphasised that each of these options was ran past him to see if they would cause any unworkable issues in lore. None of them did. And do you know what I don't see being offered? Dark Iron Dwarf skins on Dwarves. Or Mag'har Orc skins on Orcs.

Using your interpretation, a player should be able to portray themselves as a Dark Iron Dwarf or a Mag'har Orc using an ordinary Dwarf or Orc despite those options already being in use by several Allied races.

He did not emphasize that, he even said debates were had. Also he would never say "yeah we just gave options cuz fuck it" because literally who would say that. What he emphasized is what I bolded in the post.

It's more about options over trying to tell some specific narrative. For being such a wordy individual yourself, you should understand that exactly as the point I was saying: Lore isn't a factor, the goal is increasing the variety of options.

Also I've already stated that's not how my interpretation is, but keep strawmanning and looking ignorant as usual putting words into other people's mouths.

Player interpretation only goes so far and it is circumscribed by the options available on the character creator. A Dwarf who wishes to roleplay as a Wildhammer now has the tools to do that. But any Dwarf who argued they were really a Dark Iron Dwarf would invite only mirth.

As I've said before, a player can have their own opinion about their own character, but attempting to pretend the rest of the game world should agree with it is where the issue is. After all, if you interpret everything Danuser says to mean there ARE no limits, then there is nothing stopping you from pretending your Void Elf is an uncorrupted High Elf exile right this moment. These 'high elf like' skins you keep asking for are unnecessary to living out this particular fantasy.

If someone wants to go ahead and be an asshole to someone after the Lead Narrative Designer has literally said "you define your character and don't let anyone else, or even the game, tell you otherwise" then they're free to do so and be an asshole. It doesn't make them any less ignorant of "Word of God" statements.

That statement Danuser made is already having such an impact that people here on MMO-C and Twitter and official forums are already using it as justifications for their characters. It's a way for people to give the proverbial finger to those who get anal about "BuT yOuR rAcIaLs N jOkEs!" Which is what it was meant to do.

I mean the skins are ultimately going to do nothing to facilitate this choice. The suspension of disbelief required to believe you are a High Elf exile whilst playing a Void Elf with uncorrupted skintones is still going to be too great. Racial procs, emotes, the void enhanced reverb, the reaction from certain NPCs in the Catherdral in Stormwind, all will conspire to shatter that suspension of disbelief anyway. So if you argue that you can handle that which is also innate to a Void Elf and won't be changing, then you can handle the skin tones for Void Elves still existing outside the human range whilst you pretend to be a high elf exile.

As we have seen with Wildhammer and Sand/Dark Troll skins etc the skins are enough, loads of players were and are immediately excited they get to finally play the characters they've envisioned in their head. Danuser's response supports that. "hopefully giving players a way to realize their characters in their head and they weren't able to get it on the screen."

You mean that time he decided not to ruin someone's day and was nice to him? A friend of mine used to work for Blizzard, did the worldwide invitational back in 2008 in Paris and said it's just normal floor walking interactions. Vague and non-committal so as not to cause a scene or a row on the forums they haven't anticipated.

I mean all he said was what he said in the two rejections, albeit nicer, with no snark and a variation of 'anything possible in the future'. Absolute definition of false hope if you are still peddling that one in my opinion.

So how is it when a fan asks about Alliance High Elves it's just merely a pacifying statement, but when a fan asks about dark skin on Blood Elves that isn't considered the same?

I believe this is enough. Your frank bias has been illuminated for a long time, so I'm going to let you get the last word however you wish because it has been obvious for a while now all you hope is that they never add Alliance High Elves as a playable option and that means your "debating" is actually useless because even when "Word of God" statements occur that go against your bias you then do what you claim your opposition to be doing: twisting it around in a way that sees your pov as the correct one.

I'll leave you with some facts that you and others seem to be ignoring.

1) The Blue Eyes coming to Blood Elves are not the same as what the High Elves have, further differentiation has thus been made while giving more unique options.

2) People are still going to ask for High Elves because they're looking to play a group on the Alliance, not the Horde.

3) Danuser has stated Azeroth is meant to be a welcoming world with all these options players can use to express themselves, it gives further backing to players to request what they're wanting to play as in-game.

4) Increased customizations have been given because otherwise it wouldn't be feasible to give them at all if each and every option had to have their own starting experience, thus the most feasible way we'll likely see High Elves on Alliance as a playable option is through Void Elf increased customizations.

5) >99% of Void Elf fans want to look like Alleria/request High Elf skins, we're now moving toward character customization allowing one to look like their leaders thus giving more heft to the request.

6) Ion and Afrasiabi have noted it is possible to get High Elves/High Elf skins on Void Elves to give Alliance players that "High Elf fantasy".

[Ardenaso]

Garrosh war started by the alliance (Varian hate boner after wrathgate where he knew it wasn't the horde that attacked both sides)

I thought it was when Garrosh wanted to destroy Night Elves and claim Northern Kalimdor for the Horde?

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Meanwhile, the alliance of Lordaeron IS the same entity as now (again Blizzard own blue posts) have attacked Quel'thalas for their own.
Garithos was as the highest-ranked lord of Lordaeron known at the time was the leader of the alliance. His actions of "How dare you not die, time to be executed." strike one.
Blood Elf start zone when the dwarf was meant to be an ambassador to bring Quel'thalas into the alliance was actually a leader of an alliance invasion force that sabotaged the only defense against the scourge. Strike 2 for being a spy not an ambassador, strike 3 for actions that would obviously lead to the extinction of Thalassians who were at the time neutral. (The horde doesn't start helping until long after that point.).

To be fair Garithos was only like 5% of why the Blood Elves are in Horde, 95% was because of the sabotage of the Night Elves.

But then again I don't think Tyrande would've done that when she even risked her life to save them. I'd think it's because of Fandral's "muh night elf pride" supremacy and his propagated distrust towards the Highborne Elves

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Also, let's not forget there's still Elves in the Alliance even after Garithos forced them out. There's Jennalla Deemspring and her merry men with the Silver Hand and the Human Refugees, there's some in Theramore, etc.

There's even High Elves in the Scarlet Crusade, which was a continuation of the New Alliance Resistance after Garithos and his men were killed

[Manariel]

Has it ever been worked out if the Draenei starting zone happens chronologically before the Blood Elves ? I think I saw theories about it but it was never said if it was true, correct ?

If it was, the suspiscions of Fandral and the Night Elves suddenly seemed to have substantial evidence of the Blood Elves allying with the Legion, which meant that action was required, I guess. But as far as I know, it's just been theorycrafting.