Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

Nope, like I said I won't engage in circular discussion. I am stating facts in the quotes you've replied. You are free to devise your own leap of logics but as I've said before that hasn't helped folks who want certain options for Blood Elves lately.

Your credibility was recently damaged though by your admission you feel free to choose which facts to accept and which facts not to accept. That could work both ways. Perhaps the facts you are quoting don't need to be accepted by those you are debating with? Perhaps they should feel free to similarly disregard any evidence you bring up you feel helps your case, merely because they find such a course convenient in the face of inconvenient fact?

Same to you, you do you as well. Void Elves have never been stated to fulfill the High Elves the Alliance has been requesting and Ion, nor any Blizzard employee has ever re-stated what Ion said two years ago.

https://youtu.be/DkdTS_8Y61Q?t=1099

Original question, read by Jesse Cox, 'Will Mag'har Orcs and High Elves be a thing'

Spoilers guys, Blood Elves are pretty much high elves. Void elves are also pretty much another flavour of high elves.

https://youtu.be/AUik9-2ygS8?t=2845

The question is why were Void Elves chosen over high elves. I am skipping the well worn preamble wherein explains blood elves are high elves and moving straight onto his comments regarding void elves.

The Void Elf angle is tied into the story of Argus and the powers that Alleria awakened and that was able to train others to harnass (sic) was able to give something that felt a bit like a blood elf but had a unique flavour of it's own to the Alliance

Two quotes from two interviews seven months apart restating the same thing. I would argue the intent is clear. Void Elves are the replacement for high elves within the Alliance. A compromise option.

And if Ion's words aren't enough, then perhaps we should turn to a commentator you've relied upon in the past.

Taliesin and Evitel within their high elf video.

https://youtu.be/C2Sr-sadSk4?t=1025

"Because Void Elves really do feel like something that has been added to the game as a compromise. An alternative to actual high elves."

As with the attempts to argue void elves can't convert other elves into void elves, the agenda being that position is to ensure the 'high elf spot' within the Alliance remains open. If Void Elves are intended as a replacement, then that means it is lot less likely blizzard may change their minds.

Void Elves are a replacement for the high elves within the Alliance. That is abundantly clear from the statements above. After all, Taliesin recognised what they were immediately and as you've said, he's a major warcraft influencer.

Not only are they an actually playable option, but they form the other end of a thematic light-void dichotomy from the light based Blood Elves. The thing about dichotomies is you only need two parts to it. And given the exiles are as bound to the holy sunwell as the Blood Elves, they'll share the same physical destiny too.

In fact there is a transcript of Ion in that same year at Blizzcon 2018 telling someone who wants High Elves that "the door hasn't closed" and "just because they're not in BFA doesn't mean they won't be in wow ever."

Just like another fan at Blizzcon 2020 asked about darker skins for BEs and was told the truth as well.



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And if anyone wishes to say it's fake they can go ahead and link this pic to Ion and ask for confirmation over Twitter DM, as I know some people like Obelisk have done that in the past

Nobody ever said the interaction was fake. That's a strawman argument. Instead, the interaction is suspect. For one ting, there is no transcript. A transcript is a word for word record of what was said that can be analysed for nuance and for what, exactly, was said by Ion. We don't have that.

What we have is a summary, written after the fact, by a pro high elf commentator and the main take away is one line. 'The door isn't closed'. Which is analogous to 'Anything can happen in the future' i.e. the platitude they deploy on topics they aren't even considering right now.

And as has been brought up before, there are in fact guidelines for fan interactions. All Ion did was not ruin this guy's day by being overly blunt and he stated a truth nicely, that the door isn't closed. Because no door is closed. If they wanted to abolish the Alliance and Horde tomorrow, despite everything they said at Blizzcon, they could and nothing is stopping them. Instead the better question is whether they have any intent to even consider opening the door, and that is where there is zero evidence of any progress.

And the obvious difference between this interaction and the dark skins for Blood Elf interaction is that dark skins for Blood Elves were already happening and planned at that point. In fact, if you listen to the full answer Ion gave to the question in the Jessie Cox video you'll note he was asked about Mag'har Orcs as well as high elves. Mag'har Orcs, as we now know with hindsight, were already in development by this point. Notice the difference in tone regarding the Mag'har answer, which was completely open and even supportive of the idea without giving confirmation, to the high elf exile answer which was negative (as well as pushing void elves as the replacement). The dark skin tone for Blood Elf answer is more in the mag'har orc category of interactions than the high elf exile question.

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There's a story that's still going on, you know, that of the Silver Covenant VS Sunreaver.
From what we saw at BFA, the Sunreaver want their revenge, we are waiting for the next battle.
It could be much more interesting.

The Sunreavers seem to be focusing their revenge on Jaina. Given it was her decision and she gave the order, this makes sense. The Silver Covenant is superfluous to story needs right now.
If the Blood Elves need a foil from within the Alliance, it will be the Void Elves.

[Frenchvince]

The Sunreavers seem to be focusing their revenge on Jaina. Given it was her decision and she gave the order, this makes sense. The Silver Covenant is superfluous to story needs right now.
If the Blood Elves need a foil from within the Alliance, it will be the Void Elves.

Jaina can very well once again team up with her friend Vereesa and the Silver Covenant as well as Alleria and the void elves to counter this new threat.
A good scenario for obtaining high-elf customization for void elves.: p

[Obelisk Kai]

Jaina can very well once again team up with her friend Vereesa and the Silver Covenant as well as Alleria and the void elves to counter this new threat.
A good scenario for obtaining high-elf customization for void elves.: p

Could but probably won't.

And as the blue eyes for Blood Elves decision has shown, if Blizzard judges a hypothetical customisation to not match the race in question, it won't be done. This principle renders the possibility of high elf customisations on void elves incredibly unlikely.

[Frenchvince]

Could but probably won't.

And as the blue eyes for Blood Elves decision has shown, if Blizzard judges a hypothetical customisation to not match the race in question, it won't be done. This principle renders the possibility of high elf customisations on void elves incredibly unlikely.

The void elves have had all BFA for their integration into the alliance, Blizzard can very well put the high elves back in history.
There are no more barriers now.

[Kyriani]

Could but probably won't.

And as the blue eyes for Blood Elves decision has shown, if Blizzard judges a hypothetical customisation to not match the race in question, it won't be done. This principle renders the possibility of high elf customisations on void elves incredibly unlikely.

Alternatively, if Blizzard actually does intend to give some sort of "High Elf Customization" options to Void Elves, then the decision to not give Blood Elves blue eyes might have been intentional to keep them as an Alliance defining distinction between Void Elves and Blood Elves, while also attempting to appeal to those asking for playable Alliance High Elves.

I can't speak for the devs so I can't say for certain what their thought processes are and I am not willing to interpret one way or the other what certain things Ion has said actually mean for what is or isn't likely.

I will say that, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, if Blizzard decides to give any sort of High Elf-esque customization options to Void Elves, I would not expect them to be simple copy/pastes from Blood Elves. I would expect any "close-to-natural-flesh-tone" options to still be different from any that Blood Elves have, and I would not expect the exact same shades of hair color that Blood Elves have, nor their vibrancy. I would also not expect any outright duplicates of Blood Elf hairstyles. I would not be surprised however, if some of the new Human hairstyles find their way to Void Elves, perhaps with a few having a tentacle twist thrown in.

[Frenchvince]

Alternatively, if Blizzard actually does intend to give some sort of "High Elf Customization" options to Void Elves, then the decision to not give Blood Elves blue eyes might have been intentional to keep them as an Alliance defining distinction between Void Elves and Blood Elves, while also attempting to appeal to those asking for playable Alliance High Elves.

I can't speak for the devs so I can't say for certain what their thought processes are and I am not willing to interpret one way or the other what certain things Ion has said actually mean for what is or isn't likely.

I will say that, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, if Blizzard decides to give any sort of High Elf-esque customization options to Void Elves, I would not expect them to be simple copy/pastes from Blood Elves. I would expect any "close-to-natural-flesh-tone" options to still be different from any that Blood Elves have, and I would not expect the exact same shades of hair color that Blood Elves have, nor their vibrancy. I would also not expect any outright duplicates of Blood Elf hairstyles. I would not be surprised however, if some of the new Human hairstyles find their way to Void Elves, perhaps with a few having a tentacle twist thrown in.

Exactly!
KT humans (apart from their different physique) have received shades of skin and hair colors that are different from SW humans.
The same can very well happen for the void elf customization options and / or the high elf allied race.

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Regarding hairstyles, the inspiration of the style of Alleria that we find on many fan art HE is a good base.



It is quite different from the BE style which is more in brushing and neat curls.

[Kyriani]

Exactly!
KT humans (apart from their different physique) have received shades of skin and hair colors that are different from SW humans.
The same can very well happen for the void elf customization options and / or the high elf allied race.

I would still caution against getting ones hopes up. There's no real way to tell one way or the other (regardless of what this pro or that anti says) what is or isn't likely for Blizzard to do or what Blizzard not giving Blood Elves blue eyes (something that truly surprised me TBH) actually means for Alliance High Elves or High Elf customization for Void Elves.

Hope for the best but temper expectations and don't be surprised if you're let down. That's good advice for everyone on both sides of the issue. There were a lot of people expecting blue eyes for Blood Elves who were blindsided by the revelation they aren't getting them and obviously upset by it. Things we think for sure will or won't happen can easily shift the to opposite of what we are expecting. Keeping one's expectations in check limits the impact of disappointment when things don't go our way and heightens the impact of joy when they do.

[Obelisk Kai]

Alternatively, if Blizzard actually does intend to give some sort of "High Elf Customization" options to Void Elves, then the decision to not give Blood Elves blue eyes might have been intentional to keep them as an Alliance defining distinction between Void Elves and Blood Elves, while also attempting to appeal to those asking for playable Alliance High Elves.

I can't speak for the devs so I can't say for certain what their thought processes are and I am not willing to interpret one way or the other what certain things Ion has said actually mean for what is or isn't likely.

I will say that, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, if Blizzard decides to give any sort of High Elf-esque customization options to Void Elves, I would not expect them to be simple copy/pastes from Blood Elves. I would expect any "close-to-natural-flesh-tone" options to still be different from any that Blood Elves have, and I would not expect the exact same shades of hair color that Blood Elves have, nor their vibrancy. I would also not expect any outright duplicates of Blood Elf hairstyles. I would not be surprised however, if some of the new Human hairstyles find their way to Void Elves, perhaps with a few having a tentacle twist thrown in.

This suggestion does seem to be a bit of a reach though if looked at holistically. What was the reason given for Blood Elves not getting blue eyes? The lore, Blood Elves have most past blue eyes due to their experiences post third war and the new Sunwell being a font of primarily holy energy.

Whilst I agree there is a gameplay rationale here at play here also, drawing yet more distinctions between Blood Elves and Void Elves by keeping blue eyes for Void Elves, that distinction similarly applies to the skin tones Void Elves have received which are reflective of their void theme. It would be a weird kind of logic to preserve blue eyes for void elves in the name of differentiating the two groups and to then turn around and give void elves skin tones on the human range as that would pretty much obliterate meaningful differentiation in one swoop. And there isn't really any space to slot in human range skin tones that are different from Blood Elves into the Void Elves.

The human skin tone range is absolute, from the palest white to the richest black. Every shade expressible within that range, that is the Blood/high elf range as well. It is no accident that the Void Elf tones are outside the range, amongst alien blues and purples. The skin tones Void Elves received in their conception were deliberate. As with other allied races, this was the easiest method of marking them out as a distinct allied race. As Blood Elves have moved past blue eyes, so Void Elves have moved past skin tones on the human range.

Void Elf players are unlikely to get special treatment, nor should they. Just as Blood Elf players won't get blue eyes for reasons of lore, and Goblins won't be getting gilgoblin skins, and Nightborne won't be getting Night Elf skins, and Draenei won't be getting Eredar skins, so it is a reasonable expectation that Void Elf players reconcile themselves to the fact that they are indeed playing a Void Elf, not an ersatz high elf.

Blue eyed void elves for the Alliance. Human range skin tone blood elves on the Horde. Nobody gets the apparent ideal of a playable, blue eyed, human range skin tone elf.

[Frenchvince]

This suggestion does seem to be a bit of a reach though if looked at holistically. What was the reason given for Blood Elves not getting blue eyes? The lore, Blood Elves have most past blue eyes due to their experiences post third war and the new Sunwell being a font of primarily holy energy.

Whilst I agree there is a gameplay rationale here at play here also, drawing yet more distinctions between Blood Elves and Void Elves by keeping blue eyes for Void Elves, that distinction similarly applies to the skin tones Void Elves have received which are reflective of their void theme. It would be a weird kind of logic to preserve blue eyes for void elves in the name of differentiating the two groups and to then turn around and give void elves skin tones on the human range as that would pretty much obliterate meaningful differentiation in one swoop. And there isn't really any space to slot in human range skin tones that are different from Blood Elves into the Void Elves.

The human skin tone range is absolute, from the palest white to the richest black. Every shade expressible within that range, that is the Blood/high elf range as well. It is no accident that the Void Elf tones are outside the range, amongst alien blues and purples. The skin tones Void Elves received in their conception were deliberate. As with other allied races, this was the easiest method of marking them out as a distinct allied race. As Blood Elves have moved past blue eyes, so Void Elves have moved past skin tones on the human range.

Void Elf players are unlikely to get special treatment, nor should they. Just as Blood Elf players won't get blue eyes for reasons of lore, and Goblins won't be getting gilgoblin skins, and Nightborne won't be getting Night Elf skins, and Draenei won't be getting Eredar skins, so it is a reasonable expectation that Void Elf players reconcile themselves to the fact that they are indeed playing a Void Elf, not an ersatz high elf.

Blue eyed void elves for the Alliance. Human range skin tone blood elves on the Horde. Nobody gets the apparent ideal of a playable, blue eyed, human range skin tone elf.

No more logic or tradition with customization options (this has been confirmed by Blizzard).
Just two races in the same faction, with the same model, one playable and the other not, nothing more.

[Kyriani]

I do agree with you that the initial Void Elf skin tones were deliberate, but I don't agree with you that the denial of blue eyed Blood Elves somehow equates to High Elf customization for Void Elves being less likely, nor do I agree that there aren't any "close-to-human-range-fleshtones" different from Blood Elves that Blizzard could implement. I get that you're confident in your assertions but remember that while confidence is a virtue, overconfidence is quite something else. I'm not saying you're wrong, merely suggesting that your position may not be as rock solid as you think it is and keeping an open mind on what is or isn't likely could save you some potential embarrassment and/or disappointment in the future.

Ion said that Blood Elves "evolved" past blue eyes. To me that sounds like a "lawyer-speak" non-answer. While this is merely my opinion, I don't think he actually wanted to go into detail on the exact reasoning behind the denial. He knew it wasn't going to be received well by some players and from my perspective he tried to finesse his way around that. That isn't to say I think it means anything for playable Alliance High Elves or High Elf customization for Void Elves (I'm not really sure what to think TBH, I was certain Blood Elves were getting blue eyes), just that his answer seemed evasive to me.

If Void Elves get any sort of fleshtone-adjacent options, I would not consider that "special treatment", especially if those options are still unique to Void Elves and not shared by Blood Elves. And even if you want to consider it "special treatment", that's entirely Blizzard's prerogative if they want to give such skin tones to Void Elves in an attempt to appease those asking for playable Alliance High Elves. A similar issue of limited palette afflicts the Nightborne and I would not be surprised to see Blizzard expand their skin palette before Shadowlands is over. They likely won't get exactly the same skin tone options as Night Elves, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them get a broader range of options that run adjacent (but not identical) to some of the Night Elf options. It's not a big stretch if you think about it.

Night Elves and Nightborne already have some adjacent skin and hair tones as you can see here:


If Blizzard wants to expand the Nightborne palette options, they don't have to just copy/paste from Night Elves. They can simply go with a tone that's similar to one Night Elves have but still unique to the Nightborne. The same can apply to Void Elves having "close-to-fleshtone" options.

Ultimately I stand by what I said before: Hope for the best but temper expectations and don't be surprised if you're let down. That's good advice for everyone on both sides of the issue no matter how strong you think your position is.

[Broflake]

You already have customization options to look like the leader of the blood elves (a veiled eye).
Why do you want to be like Alleria who looks like the high elf of the alliance?
I do not understand your request, knowing that the blood elves are no longer high elves because they have evolved.

The faction identity argument does not only work one way.

Who has the Farstrider organization?
Who is carrying on with the traditional culture?
Your argument about "evolved" is in regards to blue eyes, not anything else so I cannot understand your intent.
If you wish to use that as a weapon, what about "the horde is waiting for you?". Matter?
Let's refrain from double standards and let's not speak so disingenuously

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The claim "we can make them different" means High Elves would still be High elves and would look like High Elves according to lore, just their current in-game model can be tweaked or changed, not that that they can be turned into the furthest thing from High Elves possible. Again, if I want to play the closest thing to High Elves on the Alliance, I'll need to roll a Human, not Void Elf.

The argument of "we can make them different but still have it be friendly to high elf lore" doesn't work because again, the blood elves are the exact same people under a different name. So any change you apply there, would need to be appied to blood elves to remain lore friendly. If its purely for differentiation then you have void elves.

Because Void Elves are nothing like High Elves at all? So what if Void Elves were forced from the Horde. If instead of Void Elves, Alliance would have gotten Void Tauren who were banished from Horde, would you still claim - here are your High Elves?

This metaphor doesn't work because tauren are tauren.
Void elves come from blood elves, who were formerly named high elves, who have the entire history of the high elf nation. This idea of "they're blood elves its not the same" doesn't work.
No one complained about Alleria coming back after WC2 and being entirely absent.

Lol.

If you don't have a counter why respond like this DDI?

What?

I am unsure how you do not understand. What do you need clarification on?

No, I don't want Blood Elves, I want what is now being presented as High Elves by the game, not high elves as a general understanding in a fantasy race.

And I understand that, but the ONLY difference between a blood elf and a high elf is the following.

1. Horde allied vs. Alliance leaning/neutral(quel'danil, quel'lithien, alleria stronghold elves post tbc, Silver covenant currently.)
2. Chose to go home and defend their people vs Chose not to go home for...reasons. (Vereesa was raising children but admitted it was only because of Rhonin and her children that she did not return home.)
Let alone many high elves still considered Silvermoon their home and the Sunwell their birth right.

So there is no meaningful difference than can be created without butchering lore. You can't have it both ways.

Why are you asking for me to play a void elf? You should tell instead, "in which case, play a human".

I do not understand you. My point is if you want a high elf, void elves provided the different design, and the wealth of lore for high elves from WC2 and on.

He quite obviously meant 'high elves' as a fantasy trope.

Which is the trope the Alliance wants where they dance with human/dwarves all day. It was pretty much a "no, THIS is our high elf so there you go."

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The void elves have had all BFA for their integration into the alliance, Blizzard can very well put the high elves back in history.
There are no more barriers now.

Void elves are the barrier though?
They're a group of elves who are in direct opposition to the blood elves, who do not have to worry about a neutral nation (dalaran).
There really is no need for the SC to be in an upfront role, particularly since Vereesa in three sisters was seemingly the "middle" man between Alleria and Sylvanas, which is Alliance and Horde respectively.

IMO it should stay that way. Vereesa is clearly not someone for war and its better she go back to being some dev's write in wife that came from nowhere

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I do agree with you that the initial Void Elf skin tones were deliberate, but I don't agree with you that the denial of blue eyed Blood Elves somehow equates to High Elf customization for Void Elves being less likely, nor do I agree that there aren't any "close-to-human-range-fleshtones" different from Blood Elves that Blizzard could implement. I get that you're confident in your assertions but remember that while confidence is a virtue, overconfidence is quite something else. I'm not saying you're wrong, merely suggesting that your position may not be as rock solid as you think it is and keeping an open mind on what is or isn't likely could save you some potential embarrassment and/or disappointment in the future.

Ion said that Blood Elves "evolved" past blue eyes. To me that sounds like a "lawyer-speak" non-answer. While this is merely my opinion, I don't think he actually wanted to go into detail on the exact reasoning behind the denial. He knew it wasn't going to be received well by some players and from my perspective he tried to finesse his way around that. That isn't to say I think it means anything for playable Alliance High Elves or High Elf customization for Void Elves (I'm not really sure what to think TBH, I was certain Blood Elves were getting blue eyes), just that his answer seemed evasive to me.

If Void Elves get any sort of fleshtone-adjacent options, I would not consider that "special treatment", especially if those options are still unique to Void Elves and not shared by Blood Elves. And even if you want to consider it "special treatment", that's entirely Blizzard's prerogative if they want to give such skin tones to Void Elves in an attempt to appease those asking for playable Alliance High Elves. A similar issue of limited palette afflicts the Nightborne and I would not be surprised to see Blizzard expand their skin palette before Shadowlands is over. They likely won't get exactly the same skin tone options as Night Elves, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them get a broader range of options that run adjacent (but not identical) to some of the Night Elf options. It's not a big stretch if you think about it.

Night Elves and Nightborne already have some adjacent skin and hair tones as you can see here:


If Blizzard wants to expand the Nightborne palette options, they don't have to just copy/paste from Night Elves. They can simply go with a tone that's similar to one Night Elves have but still unique to the Nightborne. The same can apply to Void Elves having "close-to-fleshtone" options.

Ultimately I stand by what I said before: Hope for the best but temper expectations and don't be surprised if you're let down. That's good advice for everyone on both sides of the issue no matter how strong you think your position is.

The thing is nightborne have more than just their exclusive skin colors.
They're probably not going to give them flesh tones, but more void based stuff since they are lacking in options.

[Obelisk Kai]

I do agree with you that the initial Void Elf skin tones were deliberate, but I don't agree with you that the denial of blue eyed Blood Elves somehow equates to High Elf customization for Void Elves being less likely, nor do I agree that there aren't any "close-to-human-range-fleshtones" different from Blood Elves that Blizzard could implement. I get that you're confident in your assertions but remember that while confidence is a virtue, overconfidence is quite something else. I'm not saying you're wrong, merely suggesting that your position may not be as rock solid as you think it is and keeping an open mind on what is or isn't likely could save you some potential embarrassment and/or disappointment in the future.

Confidence is justified as a pattern emerges. The denial of blue eyes to Blood Elves was consistent with a lore first principle, that new customisations being added must be consistent with the race's story and that new customisations are not a license to ignore established lore.
Human range skin tones on Void Elves violates established lore. Other, similar requests have also not been actioned. There are no Eredar skins for Draenei. No gilgoblin skins on Goblins. No Broken skins on Draenei. No Nathanos like undead options on the Undead. No San'layn options on Blood Elves. No undead options on Night Elves. Each of those requests operates on a similar principle, attempting to express a different kind of race through an existing race, even though it goes against what that race is.

The Void Elf skin tone range is the point. It simultaneously expresses and accentuates their void based status through a blue-purple skin tone range, but it also divorces them completely from the Blood/high elves.

Your idea that there are 'close to human range tones' that could be implemented somewhat misses the point a little.

Firstly, there are several ideas out there for multiple races that commentators have discussed and, amongst themselves, deemed perfectly viable that Blizzard can do. That a path towards an option can be visualised is not confirmation that it will be done, which is what the rejection of blue eyes for Blood Elves proved. And that rejection was predicated upon existing lore. Again, if it violates the lore, it's almost certainly not going to happen, even if you can see a path by which it could that makes perfect sense.

Secondly, I am unsure how familiar you are with this debate, but 'close to human range' won't satisfy the 'pro' side of this debate. That would be regarded as a monkey paw result. A failure. The few for whom it would be enough would be outnumbered by those who would regard it as yet another slap in the face. And even if Blizzard went so far as to grant blood elf skin tones to void elves, for some even that wouldn't be enough, as they would want a completely separate allied race option for the exiles.

There is no compromise to be had that would satisfy everyone. So why not stick with the compromise Blizzard designed on this topic, blue eyed void elves within the Alliance, human range skin tone Blood Elves within the Horde, with new customisations that enhance their respective fantasies rather than attempt to intrude into each others.

Ion said that Blood Elves "evolved" past blue eyes. To me that sounds like a "lawyer-speak" non-answer. While this is merely my opinion, I don't think he actually wanted to go into detail on the exact reasoning behind the denial. He knew it wasn't going to be received well by some players and from my perspective he tried to finesse his way around that. That isn't to say I think it means anything for playable Alliance High Elves or High Elf customization for Void Elves (I'm not really sure what to think TBH, I was certain Blood Elves were getting blue eyes), just that his answer seemed evasive to me.

I actually don't think it was that evasive. It seemed short, to the point and fairly clear. There aren't enough Blood Elves with blue eyes to justify the option. I may not like the answer but I understand it. I can also appreciate the underlying gameplay logic of keeping blue eyes as a unique void elf option, given there are few enough points of differentiation between Void Elves and Blood Elves as it is.

Yet the principle he expressed was clear, a customisation that violates lore will not be implemented, no matter how logical such a customisation appears to be. Blue eyes for Blood Elves seemed plausible because the basis for it seemed to be consistent with lore as currently understood, that a Sunwell that is canonically both holy and arcane, IF it is granting golden eyes (reflective of the holy part), then surely it would also be granting blue eyes (reflective of the arcane part). The existence of both a desire for blue eyes among Blood Elf players and the canonical existence of a few blue eyed Blood Elves (thus establishing precedent), seemed to add up to a strong case.

Yet despite being a popular request, with in game precedent and a ready made lore explanation that Blizzard could easily have adopted to justify it, blue eyes didn't happen. The request literally had everything going for it and it still failed because the lore as is didn't support it. Extrapolating that principle rules out a whole host of other suggestions that are on far shakier terms. Gilgoblin skins for Goblins. Eredar skins for Draenei. San'layn skins for Blood Elves and yes, logically, human range skin tones for Void Elves.

If Void Elves get any sort of fleshtone-adjacent options, I would not consider that "special treatment", especially if those options are still unique to Void Elves and not shared by Blood Elves. And even if you want to consider it "special treatment", that's entirely Blizzard's prerogative if they want to give such skin tones to Void Elves in an attempt to appease those asking for playable Alliance High Elves. A similar issue of limited palette afflicts the Nightborne and I would not be surprised to see Blizzard expand their skin palette before Shadowlands is over. They likely won't get exactly the same skin tone options as Night Elves, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them get a broader range of options that run adjacent (but not identical) to some of the Night Elf options. It's not a big stretch if you think about it.

Night Elves and Nightborne already have some adjacent skin and hair tones as you can see here:


If Blizzard wants to expand the Nightborne palette options, they don't have to just copy/paste from Night Elves. They can simply go with a tone that's similar to one Night Elves have but still unique to the Nightborne. The same can apply to Void Elves having "close-to-fleshtone" options.

Ultimately I stand by what I said before: Hope for the best but temper expectations and don't be surprised if you're let down. That's good advice for everyone on both sides of the issue no matter how strong you think your position is.

For Void Elves to get human range skin tones would either require new lore or a deliberate setting aside of current lore. Either would mean they are receiving special treatment compared to other races who are not getting options many people would like, but which is contrary to their origins. There is no particular need to 'appease' those seeking Alliance High Elves, any more than there is a need to appease Gilgoblin enthusiasts with a skin on Goblins or those who wish to play Nathanos like undead.
People should play what they have chosen to play, rather than turn it into something it is not.

If the traditional high elf aesthetic is that appealing to people, then that is available via a Blood Elf. If it vexes them that the race they want is on the faction they can't play as or won't play as, that's a situation multiple players have grappled with over the lifetime of the game and one that is not limited to alliance high elf fans. To placate them would, again, be special treatment.

Void Elves are the Alliance high elves now. A blue eyed, thalassian elf, just as people have claimed they have always wanted. It is better if future customisation options lean into what a Void Elf, rather than attempt to turn into a pretend high elf half the target audience would reject anyway on the grounds of not being the ideal.

[Kyriani]

And if Void Elves do get High Elf customization options and Ion says that the reason is because the High Elves are rallying to Alleria's side and justifying their fleshtone options due to using her method of becoming a Void Elf rather than recklessly trying to recreate the accident that created Umbric's squad, will you accept that as readily as you did the denial of blue eyes for Blood Elves?

You might well be right on with your conclusions, but I prefer to leave ample room for doubt to avoid another blindside like we had with the blue eyes denial.

I agree that human fleshtones won't squash the requests for playable Alliance High Elves, but I do think it might appease enough people to reduce the calls for them significantly, especially if there is in game lore showing the High Elves actively joining Alleria and their reasoning for doing so.

[Vaedan]

Confidence is justified as a pattern emerges. The denial of blue eyes to Blood Elves was consistent with a lore first principle, that new customisations being added must be consistent with the race's story and that new customisations are not a license to ignore established lore.
Human range skin tones on Void Elves violates established lore. Other, similar requests have also not been actioned. There are no Eredar skins for Draenei. No gilgoblin skins on Goblins. No Broken skins on Draenei. No Nathanos like undead options on the Undead. No San'layn options on Blood Elves. No undead options on Night Elves. Each of those requests operates on a similar principle, attempting to express a different kind of race through an existing race, even though it goes against what that race is.

This is in fact incorrect in a light of what Ion said recently. I don't remember exactly in what interveiw, but he said that all those new customization options are not necessarily tied to the lore and if you want to roleplay a black or asian human, it is your choice and it does not have to be backed up by lore all the time. All those new custumization are given to players to create their characters more to their liking.

There are also black skin option for blood elves, and you know, if we follow that logic that blood elves are high elves, those are described in lore as fair skinned elves. There is no background anywhere which would indicate black elves among thalassians as far as I am concerned. If there is introduced new lore to support that, great. Blood elves have new thematics. One more reason for high elf customization for void elves.

[Frenchvince]

Who has the Farstrider organization?
Who is carrying on with the traditional culture?
Your argument about "evolved" is in regards to blue eyes, not anything else so I cannot understand your intent.
If you wish to use that as a weapon, what about "the horde is waiting for you?". Matter?
Let's refrain from double standards and let's not speak so disingenuously

It is not only about the eyes, they have evolved, compared to the high elves who have remained faithful to the alliance, these two groups have taken different directions ...

Alleria has a unique model that is part of the alliance, this is enough not to be available to the horde.

[ddi2]

The argument of "we can make them different but still have it be friendly to high elf lore" doesn't work because again, the blood elves are the exact same people under a different name. So any change you apply there, would need to be appied to blood elves to remain lore friendly. If its purely for differentiation then you have void elves.

Kul'Tiran Humans say hi. Void Elves customisation options that are not accessible to Blood Elf players but are obviously accessible to Blood Elves in lore say hi. So no, you, don't need to apply the same changes to Blood Elves, that's just plainly not true. And there is nothing lore-unfriendly about that, that's just a bullshit argument that not only is debunked by the game itself, it only exists so that people like you would have something to argue about against playable High Elves.

This metaphor doesn't work because tauren are tauren.
Void elves come from blood elves, who were formerly named high elves, who have the entire history of the high elf nation. This idea of "they're blood elves its not the same" doesn't work.
No one complained about Alleria coming back after WC2 and being entirely absent.

The metaphor makes sense for the argument that you used. You said I should be happy with Void Elves because they are former Horde, exiled. So I should be happy by any exiles from Horde, according to your argument.

If you don't have a counter why respond like this DDI?

Because that question was ridiculous and you should feel bad for even asking that. High Elves weren't loyal to Alliance because we didn't see an Alliance-aligned High Elf group until WotLK? Not only High Elves in Hinterlands say hi, this argument is akin to claiming that Pandaria didn't exist in lore until it was added to the game in MoP. You can make better arguments than that.

I am unsure how you do not understand. What do you need clarification on?

What lore do you want Blizzard to expand, exactly?

And I understand that, but the ONLY difference between a blood elf and a high elf is the following.

1. Horde allied vs. Alliance leaning/neutral(quel'danil, quel'lithien, alleria stronghold elves post tbc, Silver covenant currently.)
2. Chose to go home and defend their people vs Chose not to go home for...reasons. (Vereesa was raising children but admitted it was only because of Rhonin and her children that she did not return home.)
Let alone many high elves still considered Silvermoon their home and the Sunwell their birth right.

So there is no meaningful difference than can be created without butchering lore. You can't have it both ways.

1) Different coping with magic addiction
2) Being exiles
3) Different ideology regarding magic and ways to live

And it's not just Horde aligned/not Horde aligned. Valeera is a Blood Elf. She is not Horde.

I do not understand you. My point is if you want a high elf, void elves provided the different design, and the wealth of lore for high elves from WC2 and on.

My point is if I want to play a race that represent High Elves the closest in terms of themes and feel, they are Humans, not Void Elves. And the WC2 lore is completely irrelevant for the Void Elves anyway.

Which is the trope the Alliance wants where they dance with human/dwarves all day. It was pretty much a "no, THIS is our high elf so there you go."

This was a part of an understanding that Blood Elves is Blizzard's take on high elf trope while actual High Elves which are this trope played straight are just a group of NPCs for the Alliance questing, not much relevant. I understand that this is Blizzard's position, doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

[FlubberPuddy]

Your credibility was recently damaged though by your admission you feel free to choose which facts to accept and which facts not to accept. That could work both ways. Perhaps the facts you are quoting don't need to be accepted by those you are debating with? Perhaps they should feel free to similarly disregard any evidence you bring up you feel helps your case, merely because they find such a course convenient in the face of inconvenient fact?

My credibility to who? You and others who have already resolved to prevent Alliance High Elves from becoming playable and thus make consistently disingenuous and hypocritical arguments that eat each other?

Lol, I don't need to have credibility in those eyes and as has been shown by neutral parties that come into this thread to comment on the nature of your posts, it's easy for others who don't have a horse in this race to see the same things as well.

SNIP

So this entire section is you replying to a quote of mine where I said "Ion, nor any Blizzard employee has ever re-stated what Ion said two years ago." and yet you show me videos of statements as far as three years ago and before Ion's April Q&A in 2018 which was the last time any Blizzard employee took a jab when asked about High Elves.

Unsure what point you're making, as it looks like you've missed the point entirely despite it literally being right in what you quoted from me.

Statements from Blizzard Employees, and even Taliesin after that first video you linked, have since then

1) Been supportive of the possibility of High Elves (Afrasiabi emphasizing 'Don't give up hope', Ion mentioning on the showfloor 'the door hasn't closed' 'just because they're not in bfa doesn't mean they won't be in wow ever')

2) Taliesin and Evitel going over the blue eyes datamining and stating people are understandably upset because when players make the High Elf request it's about a specific group that even the game itself recognizes as different from Blood Elves.

So not sure what you were trying to do here, it seems you think linking statements that are prior to what I mention is somehow destroying my statement about the fact that since April 2018 they haven't dismissed the High Elf request and since then approached it with a sense of 'hope'?

Nobody ever said the interaction was fake. That's a strawman argument. Instead, the interaction is suspect. For one ting, there is no transcript. A transcript is a word for word record of what was said that can be analysed for nuance and for what, exactly, was said by Ion. We don't have that.

What we have is a summary, written after the fact, by a pro high elf commentator and the main take away is one line. 'The door isn't closed'. Which is analogous to 'Anything can happen in the future' i.e. the platitude they deploy on topics they aren't even considering right now.

And as has been brought up before, there are in fact guidelines for fan interactions. All Ion did was not ruin this guy's day by being overly blunt and he stated a truth nicely, that the door isn't closed. Because no door is closed. If they wanted to abolish the Alliance and Horde tomorrow, despite everything they said at Blizzcon, they could and nothing is stopping them. Instead the better question is whether they have any intent to even consider opening the door, and that is where there is zero evidence of any progress.

And the obvious difference between this interaction and the dark skins for Blood Elf interaction is that dark skins for Blood Elves were already happening and planned at that point. In fact, if you listen to the full answer Ion gave to the question in the Jessie Cox video you'll note he was asked about Mag'har Orcs as well as high elves. Mag'har Orcs, as we now know with hindsight, were already in development by this point. Notice the difference in tone regarding the Mag'har answer, which was completely open and even supportive of the idea without giving confirmation, to the high elf exile answer which was negative (as well as pushing void elves as the replacement). The dark skin tone for Blood Elf answer is more in the mag'har orc category of interactions than the high elf exile question.

I don't see how pointing me to the video about Jesse Cox, a video that was Blizzcon 2017 is supposed to change a view about a fan interaction that occurred in Blizzcon 2018. Not making sense there dude.

I'm not claiming others consider it fake, I am saying if you wish to conclude it's real there's an avenue to fact-check.

It's funny how you claim Occam's Razor in past statements and then try to delve deep into some extra reasoning for why Ion answered that fan the way he did on the showfloor vs another Blizz employee answering for another fan.

It also doesn't take away what I mentioned: Both were told the truth. As there is no reason to outright lie about anything concerning a video game.

Also you can't open a door that isn't closed, because it's already open And ofc the difference between the fan interaction is one Blizzard employee could confirm dark skins were happening as opposed to trying to confirm something that wasn't happening for 3-4 years. The similarity is they are both genuine answers with a different purpose.

One is confirming something because it's already happening, the other is confirming that a playable option isn't impossible while also clarifying that because they're not in now (BFA) doesn't mean they won't ever be. Both genuine answers for fans that asked genuine questions.

The progress was that interaction with the fan, and Afrasiabi's statement, the new system of increased customizations and revamped character creation screen, the acknowledgement of the topic in the latest April Fool's, as well as no blue eyes for blood elves - something which many thought was a forgone conclusion.

That's the progress you keep attempting to ignore as seemingly all statements concerning High Elves have stopped for you since April 2018 during that Q&A as you can do nothing else but keep going back in time whereas everyone's been moving forward and many understand the High Elf topic was not one that was going to be resolved so soon.

Remember, even in that April 2018 Q&A even ended it with "Anything's possible, but no plans in the near term for High Elves as an Allied Race" and

NOT
1) High Elves can't ever be an Allied Race
2) Void Elves are the fulfillment for the High Elf request

If I recall the answer John Hight gave regarding Wildhammer Dwarves was also 'Anything's possible in the future' and we see that now with Shadowlands since Dwarves are an original race and are currently being worked on.

We have yet to see what's coming concerning High Elves as the Void Elf are an Allied Race and thus do not yet know how Blizzard are going to handle it, will they include High Elf options into Void Elves as a mentioned possibility by Afrasiabi or will they have High Elves be a stand-alone option among Void Elves in the Alliance as Ion's answer on the showfloor implied that possibility still exists.

It's a question we'll have to wait and see, despite you constantly trying to argue as if it's done and dealt with.

- - - Updated - - -

I get that you're confident in your assertions but remember that while confidence is a virtue, overconfidence is quite something else.

To quote the wisdom of a great ancestor, "Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer."

Also, Obelisk was very very confident that blue eyes would come to Blood Elves, so there's already viewable experience with overconfidence there.

[Beloren]

Regarding hairstyles, the inspiration of the style of Alleria that we find on many fan art HE is a good base.



It is quite different from the BE style which is more in brushing and neat curls.

This would be perfect for Sin'dorei ranger types, Farstriders etc, just with red variations and green ones, even black ones in the hairstyle and tatoos instead of blue.

It is well known that the blood elf model is based on the magister type, they haven't done one based on the ranger/farstrider - and this could fit perfectly.

[Ardenaso]

Good meme. Helps reinforce my point.

That meme is hilarious, I am going to use it whenever people shit on the Windrunners. Thanks a lot Ardenaso!

This is perfect dude. You get across how Blood Elves see the Alliance/Humans and how High Elves feel about their long-time allies!

Aww thanks, I got banned for 4 days though (even though it wasn't spam/trolling and it was relevant to the topic and the thread)

I-snip-

Fair enough. But now the people will want High Elves even more and Blizzard might go for it and I don't want it

Blood Elves are very xenophobic, they hate humans, so High Elves wouldn't like being around them anyway, as Ardenaso pointed out.

To be fair, the Blood Elves were also going with the Human_Potential_TM but the High Elves keep on pushing them away like the time Silver Covenant cockblocked the Sunreavers from Dalaran, then they undermine any relation between the Sunreavers and the Argent Crusade Humans, and then they forced Dalaran to the Alliance

[Beloren]

Hey guys, I just found this HE art, it looks great, with the same VE haircut.
I love this look !

https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers...a134af657b.jpg

This is just what I need actually. A Quel'dorei hunter with void elf haircut. This is amazing

Would do great on a sin'dorei hunter, farstrider but in reds, greens and blacks instead of blues. Won't you say?