Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[FlubberPuddy]

Afrasiabi at BlizzCon 2018 (so after BFA release, after those lines were written) said about Kul Tirans “btw they are human” so I’m not sure why the discussion on that is still going on.

I’m too lazy to find the video now but I can find it later. Might’ve been the same one where he was asked about High Elf customization coming to Void Elves.

Regardless though, this line of conversation about whether Kul Tirans are or aren’t human is akin to the Night Elf discussion that was happening earlier.

That is, move it to another thread or PMs if y’all wanna discuss that.

It’s getting tiresome to see it in the High Elf Discussion thread.

[Swnem]

I have no stick in this disvussion but i want to say that the Kul'tiran and Vrykul models do indeed look alike. Not identical, but similar.

It would be cool to see some vrykul like customisation options for the Kul'tirans.

[Syegfryed]

Gdarn you are going to make me have to agree with Syeg, you know that?

-"We Thornspeakers joined Kul Tiran society" Means Thornspeakers as a whole joined, Ulfar, individually, didn't. The "joined KT society" really implies a lot here, specially since Ulfar literally remained -individually- isolated.
-"Some of their descendants heard the call of the wilds and wished to learn the ancient ways" It's making reference to the Thornspeakers that joined KT society.

I agree that so far this is all just strong implication, but the fact that Only Kul Tiran NPC Models are Thornspeakers/Druids, is evidently making the implication ridiculously obvious.

don't try with him, i already give up, it makes totally sense that the descendants of the old drust, would wish to learn the ancient ways of their ancestors, something alien to the normal kul'tirans, since their ancestors had nothing to do with the drust.

which is very ironic how people were saying i was the one who keep pushing just to get the final word in the discussion

It is incredible to see people discussing that playable Kul Tirans are half Drust when we already had a dev confirm us they are plain normal humans with a different model just for the sake of making them look different from playable Stormwind Humans. Wanting to discuss this is beyond me.

they didn't say they were "plain normal humans", but a variant/breed of the human race.

having a bit of drust blood diluted in the group of humans, from 2700 years ago, would not make then "half-drust", would still make then humans but with some drust blood, meaning some characteristics would come up, vrykuls are technically big humans anyway.

its what happens with the moknathal too, the less ogre blood the more the individual is just an orc

[Lorca]

Yes. They are the exact same words. The fact that I didn't copy the entire paragraph is meaningless because the omitted words serve no purpose to what was being discussed. You contested my statement that the Tushui and Huojin pandaren living in peace in the Wandering Isle, as your "used to live" little quip implies.

Not the same words, not the same sentence, not the same meaning. I already explained to you in my last answer how this mattered to our discussion.

Yes. You. Because twice you attacked my grammar mistakes.

I didn't “attack” anything. I just pointed you the orthographic mistakes you did in Latin -as it made the latinism you used change its meaning- and then that you were using "rebrand" in the wrong way as you didn't know the meaning of the word -at least by the (Cambridge) dictionary definition of it- because the term was important in our discussion as it was related with the naming subject. So, no, I didn't "attack your grammar mistakes”, which anyone can make.

It doesn't. This is nothing more than you arguing semantics when both words convey the exact same meaning in the context of what is being discussed.

As long as you keep talking about the use of the language, I'll just keep pointing you when and how you are wrong by showing you how. But again, PM for that.

In any case, it is relevant in our discussion as I mentioned before as rebrand as an action would work for organizations but not for races, which was the use you gave to the term. Thus, as I suggested, it could be possible that you are thinking about the Blood Elves and High Elves just as the same race, but being different organizations?

Needless to say, if there exist two different words, it is for a reason. If there weren't any differences between the references (as meanings) of those two words, then we would have just one word. In this case, in our discussion, both words doesn't even work as synonyms, therefore the equivalency between the two words you are claming is non-existing.

Maybe this is important to bring up -> definition of rebrand by the Cambridge dictionary: "to change the way that an organization, company, or product is seen by the public."

The lore calls them "pandaren, pandaren, blood elves and high elves." When you, as a pandaren player, speak to an NPC that refers to you as your race in their quest text, they call you "pandaren", regardless if you're Horde or Alliance. But if you are a blood elf, they call you blood elf. They don't call you "elf".

So, now it is "the lore calls..."? What happened to the "game calls"? As far as I know, the "lore calls" them Huojin Pandaren and Tushui Pandaren. Both during the playable Pandaren starting area and then later when they become part of the Horde, and also in their reputation box text. And that last one was one of the examples you gave me for the "game calling" the different Pandaren groups something. Now that doesn't matter, and it only matters how the NPC's quest givers refer to them? Why do you change your own criterion? That's kinda cheaty.

And I pointed out already how you're wrong, that I did not lie.

Either way, you're still wrong. Because you're inferring meanings to statements of mine that has nothing to do with said meanings. Evidence of that is how you "brought as evidence" how I call the 'mag'har orcs' when I never mentioned them even once in our conversation, or in any recent conversation in the thread, too.

You did, as mentioned above.

See, you are lying again or just forgetting everything we talked about already -in which case you could easily go back and check our posts-. As I asked you before to show me by quoting me where did I exactly and explicitly said anything about how you "call the 'mag'har orcs'", and you still didn't and still accuse me of saying things I didn't, you are still lying or forgetting about what we already talked. I didn't say anything about how you actually call the Mag'har Orcs, and I already told you that and explained you that I just mentioned them as another example. You even said that you misunderstood that. But now you went back to the starting point. I brought the Mag'har as I brought the Pandaren as different examples to the discussion related to the naming of the different groups of the Thalassian Elves, to show how the naming in those case, at a linguistical and pragmatical level, works the same way, as the principal motivation behind the use of different names is basically the intention of differentiating each groups from the others. Thus, if you wanted to be precise -as you are with the Blood Elves and the High Elves-, you would call each different group by their different name when you were referring to each different group, and you wouldn't say just Orcs, Pandaren or Elves when you wanted to point each of those groups. I mean, it is a pretty simple thesis to defend, and imho trivial to say. In other words, what I wanted also to show you is that you've been hypocritical in this case, as you can be pretty precise with everything related to the High Elves but you don't give a crap about precision with the other racial groups. You are just using different standards.

Then you don't know the meaning of "know perfectly". Again, a polite person does not outright accuse someone of lying because of a possible misunderstanding. A polite person does not accuse others of being "little children". A polite person person does not accuse others of being "cowards". And yet you did all that.

Now we are back again to misunderstanding...

Already talked about that. Reread the last post. I perfectly know the meaning of every word I use. I just call the things by their conventional names when I am having a discussion. For the rest, again, PM.

[Ignaz]

-"We Thornspeakers joined Kul Tiran society" Means Thornspeakers as a whole joined, Ulfar, individually, didn't. The "joined KT society" really implies a lot here, specially since Ulfar literally remained -individually- isolated.
-"Some of their descendants heard the call of the wilds and wished to learn the ancient ways" It's making reference to the Thornspeakers that joined KT society.

I agree that so far this is all just strong implication, but the fact that Only Kul Tiran NPC Models are Thornspeakers/Druids, is evidently making the implication ridiculously obvious.

I disagree.

From the beginning, Ulfar speaks of demographic groups. Grammatically speaking it is understandable that until the last moment he will continue talking about demographic groups (in which Ulfar himself is included)

- Indeed I am. Not '' all of my people '' agreed with the conflict. Have you never seen division '' among your own ''?
Two demographic groups.

- '' We Thornspeakers '' joined Kul Tiran society.
A demographic group referring to the Thornspeakers

- '' Some of their descendants '' heard the call of the wilds and wished to learn the ancient ways.
The other demographic group represented by Humans

- and so ''we'' '' have taught them ''.
Representing an action directed from the Thornspeakers towards the humans.

from here you can deduce 1001 variants:
-Humans killed Thornspeakers and therefore no longer exist except for Ulfar.
-Humans and Thornspeakers separated at some point.
-Both mixed.
-etc.

However, for the purposes of the text itself (one group teaches another some knowledge), and given its grammatical structure; nullifies all implications other than the primary objective (again: Thornspeakers teaching humans druidism).

If the text were structured like this:
- We Thornspeakers joined Kul Tiran society. Some of '' our '' descendants heard the call of the wilds.
it could be interpreted that both groups were mixed, even if it is not the main objective of the text.

And to that you add the words of the developers, where they make it clear that Kul'tiran Humans are the same race as Stormwind Humans, there is no room for variants.

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Afrasiabi at BlizzCon 2018 (so after BFA release, after those lines were written) said about Kul Tirans “btw they are human” so I’m not sure why the discussion on that is still going on.

I’m too lazy to find the video now but I can find it later. Might’ve been the same one where he was asked about High Elf customization coming to Void Elves.

Regardless though, this line of conversation about whether Kul Tirans are or aren’t human is akin to the Night Elf discussion that was happening earlier.

That is, move it to another thread or PMs if y’all wanna discuss that.

It’s getting tiresome to see it in the High Elf Discussion thread.

the thing is that since that point would put at risk the premise that there could not be a single race as two options (Helves an Belves) (which @Syegfryed defends to death) it opens as a sub-debate (which he already lost) to check his point.

[Doffen]

Afrasiabi at BlizzCon 2018 (so after BFA release, after those lines were written) said about Kul Tirans “btw they are human” so I’m not sure why the discussion on that is still going on.

I’m too lazy to find the video now but I can find it later. Might’ve been the same one where he was asked about High Elf customization coming to Void Elves.

Regardless though, this line of conversation about whether Kul Tirans are or aren’t human is akin to the Night Elf discussion that was happening earlier.

That is, move it to another thread or PMs if y’all wanna discuss that.

It’s getting tiresome to see it in the High Elf Discussion thread.

I just have to look at them.

*Glancing* Yep, human.'

On topic: Elves for everyone.

[Ielenia]

Not the same words, not the same sentence, not the same meaning.

Same words, same sentence, same exact meaning. And I explained why you're wrong.

I didn't “attack” anything.

Yes. You "attacked" when you criticized my spelling mistakes.

As long as you keep talking about the use of the language,

You are the one that are arguing semantics and language, here. Not me.

In any case, it is relevant in our discussion

It is not, because in the context of the discussion, both words work as synonyms because both convey the exact same meaning.

Maybe this is important to bring up -> definition of rebrand by the Cambridge dictionary: "to change the way that an organization, company, or product is seen by the public."

Oh, gee. That sounds exactly what the blood elves did. Because it is exactly what they did.

As far as I know, the "lore calls" them Huojin Pandaren and Tushui Pandaren.

No, they call them just "pandaren", and I've already proven that: go to any NPC that addresses your character by their race, and they'll say "pandaren".

See, you are lying again

I'm not, and I've already explained it countless times.

As I asked you before to show me by quoting me where did I exactly and explicitly said anything about how you "call the 'mag'har orcs'",

Since you're seem to be oh-so-forgetful:

You are "precise" with the details you are interested in only, and that's pretty much being cynical. You do that for the High Elf and Blood Elf groups, calling them differently, but not for the Pandaren, or even, as I said, the Mag'har Orcs.

Already talked about that. Reread the last post. I perfectly know the meaning of every word I use.

And I pointed out how you're still either misusing the word, or not follow the real meaning of the words you claim you know the meanings of.

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the descendants of the old drust,

Are highly unlikely to be the playable Kul Tirans, for the reasons pointed out, already. Of which you addressed none, by the way. Neither the population reason, neither the grammatical reason. You just dismissed both by making unsupported assertions.

[Syegfryed]

the thing is that since that point would put at risk the premise that there could not be a single race as two options (Helves an Belves) (which @Syegfryed defends to death) it opens as a sub-debate (which he already lost) to check his point.

And since kul'tirans humans and normal humans are obviously different from each other, they are not the same as helves and belves who are indeed the same, (who people said they were not), hence i could not be more right on it

[Ignaz]

And since kul'tirans humans and normal humans are obviously different from each other, they are not the same as helves and belves who are indeed the same, (who people said they were not), hence i could not be more right on it

@Geisl You see?

[Alixie]

Now that we've established that kultirans are just fat humans, all humans have vrykrul ancestry, and blood elves are different race than high elves because they were augmented by magic/vampirism, lets ask the real questions. Would Void Elf paladins be shadow paladins, or regular Light worshipping paladins? Im saying the former, because the "high elf skins" are basically an appropriation costume, just like the blood elves, trolls, and dwarves. Hence the "fantasy" term. If blood elves got red "Dark Ranger" eye colors, they wouldnt REALLY be undead dark rangers. They'd be cosplaying, living elves. I dont really support changing racials or new name tags, since they'd have to add a bunch for all the clans that can be imitated. So, if Void Elves got paladins, they'd be a new type of paladin, but with some customization can pretty much look like regular helf paladins.

[Ignaz]

Now that we've established that kultirans are just fat humans, all humans have vrykrul ancestry, and blood elves are different race than high elves because they were augmented by magic/vampirism, lets ask the real questions. Would Void Elf paladins be shadow paladins, or regular Light worshipping paladins? Im saying the former, because the "high elf skins" are basically an appropriation costume, just like the blood elves, trolls, and dwarves. Hence the "fantasy" term. If blood elves got red "Dark Ranger" eye colors, they wouldnt REALLY be undead dark rangers. They'd be cosplaying, living elves. I dont really support changing racials or new name tags, since they'd have to add a bunch for all the clans that can be imitated. So, if Void Elves got paladins, they'd be a new type of paladin, but with some customization can pretty much look like regular helf paladins.

mmm Good question.

I think that for the principles that have already been shown in the game that analogize light and void as opposite magnetic poles (one repels the other), it is clear that a Void user cannot interact with light (like alleria). However, Blizzard has shown that it can change the parameters of the game when it pleases them, so I don't see why it won't be possible in the future.

They could use the now famous phrase "it's just for roleplay"

[FlubberPuddy]

mmm Good question.

I think that for the principles that have already been shown in the game that analogize light and void as opposite magnetic poles (one repels the other), it is clear that a Void user cannot interact with light (like alleria). However, Blizzard has shown that it can change the parameters of the game when it pleases them, so I don't see why it won't be possible in the future.

They could use the now famous phrase "it's just for roleplay"

Yup, which they did for Tauren Paladins who lorewise are actually "Sun Druids" but have the Paladin class available due to gameplay reasons.

I think if we ever get class skins then it has more weight to include Paladins on the Alliance elf side. After all the newest CM at Blizzard is wanting Blood Elven Druids and when questioned on wanting more or something, she said that Alliance already has Elven Druids.

Ergo the same want can be applied to wanting an Elf Paladin on the Alliance side, and Void Elves (or Night Elves more so) would be fitting. With class skins a Void Elf Paladin could be some sort of Void Knight, which would be really freakin dope btw.

And yes I see what you mean about Syggy, hence why I say it's a waste of time to continue the discussion, doubly so that it is frankly off-topic at this point with only a speck of relation to the earlier treatment between BE/HEs but has now transformed into strictly being about humans.

[Ignaz]

Yup, which they did for Tauren Paladins who lorewise are actually "Sun Druids" but have the Paladin class available due to gameplay reasons.

I think if we ever get class skins then it has more weight to include Paladins on the Alliance elf side. After all the newest CM at Blizzard is wanting Blood Elven Druids and when questioned on wanting more or something, she said that Alliance already has Elven Druids.

Ergo the same want can be applied to wanting an Elf Paladin on the Alliance side, and Void Elves (or Night Elves more so) would be fitting. With class skins a Void Elf Paladin could be some sort of Void Knight, which would be really freakin dope btw.

I like the idea of "Void Knight". To be honest I would prefer it as a separate class instead of a skin for a class.
And I agree that I would further combine the elf-paladin theme for the Nelves because of their relationship with the light, since many of them are priests, not only druids.

And yes I see what you mean about Syggy, hence why I say it's a waste of time to continue the discussion, doubly so that it is frankly off-topic at this point with only a speck of relation to the earlier treatment between BE/HEs but has now transformed into strictly being about humans.

Don't worry, I think he's getting bored already. haha

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I disagree.

From the beginning, Ulfar speaks of demographic groups. Grammatically speaking it is understandable that until the last moment he will continue talking about demographic groups (in which Ulfar himself is included)

- Indeed I am. Not '' all of my people '' agreed with the conflict. Have you never seen division '' among your own ''?
Two demographic groups.

- '' We Thornspeakers '' joined Kul Tiran society.
A demographic group referring to the Thornspeakers

- '' Some of their descendants '' heard the call of the wilds and wished to learn the ancient ways.
The other demographic group represented by Humans

- and so ''we'' '' have taught them ''.
Representing an action directed from the Thornspeakers towards the humans.

from here you can deduce 1001 variants:
-Humans killed Thornspeakers and therefore no longer exist except for Ulfar.
-Humans and Thornspeakers separated at some point.
-Both mixed.
-etc.

However, for the purposes of the text itself (one group teaches another some knowledge), and given its grammatical structure; nullifies all implications other than the primary objective (again: Thornspeakers teaching humans druidism).

If the text were structured like this:
- We Thornspeakers joined Kul Tiran society. Some of '' our '' descendants heard the call of the wilds.
it could be interpreted that both groups were mixed, even if it is not the main objective of the text.

And to that you add the words of the developers, where they make it clear that Kul'tiran Humans are the same race as Stormwind Humans, there is no room for variants.

Again, I think Ulfar's wording implies that Thronspeakers as a group joined KT society, but he individually, remained isolated.

The "We Thornspeakers Joined Kultiran society", followed by "their descendants" clearly is following a pattern of group B joins group A, becoming part of it, and then that group having descendants. All this tells us is that Ulfar separates himself -"their descendents"- implying he, personally, didn't produce offspring,

And as I pointed out, this phrase by itself it's vague enough it can go either way in terms if interpretation -even if I disagree-, but the complimenting evidence of Only Kul Tiran Models being Thornspeakers makes the implication very obvious.


And the whole point of the issue is that the devs are bsing for some reason, and I think it's common knowledge that we all disagree at points how devs frame the lore, since it's a collective pursuit, not one singular vision. Just like when Ion said "There are no organized HE groups or hubs out there", what devs express outside the in universe sources sometimes just contradicts them.

With the in game's sources, Occam's razor applies.

[Varodoc]

There is actually a precedent for "Void Paladins". The Twilight Vindicators are dark paladins working for the Twilight Hammer, the infamous cult that worships the Old Gods. They are clad in paladin armor and can utilize the Light, despite serving the Void and being surrounded by Void users.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

So how do we know that Ulfar, specifically, individually, did not join the Kul Tiran society? I'm asking because, as far as I can tell, the only reason to say that he did not is solely to support this "'their' descendants = drust descendants" claim.

I've read and re-read his WoWpedia page, along with his quotes. Nothing in there even hints at him, specifically, never having joined the Kul Tiran society. So that means we basically have an assumption without evidence being used to support a claim.

We also have Gorak Tul angry at Ulfar for teaching the secerts of the Thornspeakers to the Kul'Tirans, with Gorak Tul calling the Kul Tiran "wretches". However, I'll freely admit that this is not conclusive evidence of anything, since his words could go either way, meaning that Gorak Tul disapproves of teaching the Thornspeaker secrets to non-drust, or that he simply considers the drust descendants "abominations" if the Kul Tirans are indeed a mix of drust/human blood.

I point at him "not joining KT society" as he evidently lives as a hermit; his apparent lifestyles is completely at odds with his own statement that Thornspeakers joined Kul Tiran society. He's not in the middle of Boralus, or even any town, he lives in a cave, so it's IMO evident his personal journey does not reflect his own statement about Thornspeakers joining Kul Tiran society.

As for these specific points:

And, once again: if the drust actually really bred with the humans, we would still see drust alive today, in Boralus. But we don't. So we have two options, as far as I can see:

This premise is already flawed on itself, because the point is that the KT model represents the result of human and drust union. A limited number of drust on the kul tiran gene pool would have diluted through time; the fact that Ulfar is the only drust alive implies he's the exception regarding longevity, there aren't any other drust alive, he's the only "pure blooded" drust remaining*, for any meassure of the word, because ultimatelly, Drust and Human are simply two different ofshoots of Vrykul. AFAIK Drust also suffered the curse of flesh, it just seems they didn't get as small.

• The drust bred exclusively with the humans and never with each other

Not necessarily; in 3k years there are around 100+ generations of humans, the whole point is that with a limited number of Drust, the number of drust-human unions humans would offset drust-drust offspring eventually, even if by modern times we have individuals that are genetically 95% drust and 5% human.

*Actually it might be possible for a drust only lineage to exist, all this means is... they look closer to the KT model, as we all know that models themselves are just representati

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There is actually a precedent for "Void Paladins". The Twilight Vindicators are dark paladins working for the Twilight Hammer, the infamous cult that worships the Old Gods. They are clad in paladin armor and can utilize the Light, despite serving the Void and being surrounded by Void users.

That's what I have been saying! Also Riftblades!!

[DeicideUH]

The "We Thornspeakers Joined Kultiran society", followed by "their descendants" clearly is following a pattern of group B joins group A, becoming part of it, and then that group having descendants. All this tells us is that Ulfar separates himself -"their descendents"- implying he, personally, didn't produce offspring,

Sorry, man, but I'll disagree with you there.
If Blizzard wanted to make it clear that Thornspeakers bred with humans, they'd write "The Thornspeakers" , instead of "We Thornspeakers", followed by "Their descendants", to remove himself from the equation.

Or they'd use "We Thornspeakers" followed by "Our descendants", even if Ulfar himself never had any children, since he is talking about Thornspeakers as a group. "Their descendants" clearly point to "kul tiran society".

It makes no sense to use different subjects in the first and second sentences if both were meant to portray the same group.

With the in game's sources, Occam's razor applies.

And the simplest solution is that kul tirans are simply humans. There's no need for any genetic explanation when plain humans can be burly and thicc.

[FlubberPuddy]

There's no need for any genetic explanation when plain humans can be burly and thicc.

T H I C C

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There is actually a precedent for "Void Paladins". The Twilight Vindicators are dark paladins working for the Twilight Hammer, the infamous cult that worships the Old Gods. They are clad in paladin armor and can utilize the Light, despite serving the Void and being surrounded by Void users.

Yup yup! Twilight magic literally fits here, a combination of Void and Light!

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Magic_schools

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Twilight_(spell_school)

[Ielenia]

And since kul'tirans humans and normal humans are obviously different from each other,

Except they are not. Both are humans. You have not demonstrated your case with sufficient, conclusive evidence. Vague statements and misinterpretations of NPC quotes are not evidence.

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I point at him "not joining KT society" as he evidently lives as a hermit; his apparent lifestyles is completely at odds with his own statement that Thornspeakers joined Kul Tiran society. He's not in the middle of Boralus, or even any town, he lives in a cave, so it's IMO evident his personal journey does not reflect his own statement about Thornspeakers joining Kul Tiran society.

Here's a question: let's assume, for the sake of the argument, that Ulfar himself did not join the Kul Tiran society as you claim he did not. But if he had a son and/or daughter, and his off-spring went to join the Kul Tiran society... wouldn't Ulfar's children's descendants also be his descendants?

And on top of that: how do we know that Ulfar has always been the hermit type? Perhaps he became a hermit only after old age started to get to him?

This premise is already flawed on itself, because the point is that the KT model represents the result of human and drust union. A limited number of drust on the kul tiran gene pool would have diluted through time; the fact that Ulfar is the only drust alive implies he's the exception regarding longevity, there aren't any other drust alive, he's the only "pure blooded" drust remaining*, for any meassure of the word, because ultimatelly, Drust and Human are simply two different ofshoots of Vrykul. AFAIK Drust also suffered the curse of flesh, it just seems they didn't get as small.

It's not flawed. Let me explain this using a different example: if you plant red roses and white roses together, eventually you'll see pink roses growing... but you'll also see still white roses and red roses growing, as well.

The point is: if drust joined the Kul Tiran society, and bred with humans, that means we should have have a population of drust, humans, and human/dust hybrids. And assuming the playable Kul Tiran is the 'human/drust' hybrid... where are the drust?

Not necessarily; in 3k years there are around 100+ generations of humans, the whole point is that with a limited number of Drust, the number of drust-human unions humans would offset drust-drust offspring eventually, even if by modern times we have individuals that are genetically 95% drust and 5% human.

How do you know that we had a "limited number of Drust"? by which I'm assuming you mean that the Thornspeakers were few in number, as Syegfryed claimed. Three thousand years is not enough time for a population to simply stop existing, especially considering the humans in Kul Tiras still exist strong. Either they should all have 'diluted away' and all Kul Tirans should become human/drust hybrids, or still "pure breeds" of each group should still exist. Or, at the very least, "pure-breed" humans should have been the absolute minority in Kul Tiras... but that is not the case. We even have thin humans... and where did those come from?

[FossilFree]

Yup, which they did for Tauren Paladins who lorewise are actually "Sun Druids" but have the Paladin class available due to gameplay reasons.

I think if we ever get class skins then it has more weight to include Paladins on the Alliance elf side. After all the newest CM at Blizzard is wanting Blood Elven Druids and when questioned on wanting more or something, she said that Alliance already has Elven Druids.

Ergo the same want can be applied to wanting an Elf Paladin on the Alliance side, and Void Elves (or Night Elves more so) would be fitting. With class skins a Void Elf Paladin could be some sort of Void Knight, which would be really freakin dope btw.

And yes I see what you mean about Syggy, hence why I say it's a waste of time to continue the discussion, doubly so that it is frankly off-topic at this point with only a speck of relation to the earlier treatment between BE/HEs but has now transformed into strictly being about humans.

Night Elf paladins are currently #1 in my poll :

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...in-Shadowlands