"Horde doesn't ask for Alliance races"
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769627597 (Dark Iron Dwarves should probably be Horde.)
"Horde doesn't ask for Alliance races"
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769627597 (Dark Iron Dwarves should probably be Horde.)
Ah yes the "it's not on the same level!" argument.
When no suggested race will ever come close to the popularity that High Elves hold.
Nice try. This is one example of many, I'm not going to go do the searching for you. It's been known that Horde has wanted Dark Irons throughout the years.
Except dark irons were not part of the Alliance at that time, nor did you have Horde shrieking for them saying they deserve them.
On the contrary you're begging for a Horde race under the flimsy guise of "just give them a different hairstyle and blue eyes."
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Wrong once again, your comparison doesn't even work then because San'layn are blood elves anyways, something that's already Horde. As opposed to void elves which are literally compensation for years of crying about not getting the Toy Horde got.
Doesnt matter how they identify themselves, they would blur the faction lines. I wont recognize void elf from san'layn. Eye color is just not enough. I dont want to be killed in battleground by San'layn, thinking it was my void elf brother. This would kill PvP for good. And if you bring pandaren excuse, then blizz already said, that it was mistake and that they wont repeat that.
If you want non-majestic, dead colored elf, Alliance is there, waiting for you.
Last edited by Andromedes; 2018-10-18 at 05:28 AM.
Yes it was. Not very good, I'm shit at sarcasm, admittedly. Still, sarcasm or not, the point stands.
And yes, you were included in a general manner. Not a personal one. I'm not gonna call you a liar if you claim you don't play velfs or belfs. If you don't fall into that category you cam feel free not to include yourself in it, I won't.
And yes, I'm sure when anyone tells you to shut the hell up and deal with the fact that you are not getting Helfs is a desperate plea. I have no doubt some of you even believe that.
I think my sentence was coherent enough to understand, I mean I am talking to you fellas so I have to make it really clear, but your stubbornness is amusing at least if not your simplistic capacity to read, riddled with helf bias.
And belfs are a playable race since in BC. What's your point? Since BC the Belfs have had sole access to their previous lore spanning back to their separation from the Nelfs. The fact that Helfs are around does not change a god damned thing and it does not make this issue any less complicated that int was before you opened your mouth to blurt out the fact that Helfs have been around for a really long time. Guess what? So have your sad tears and over a decade later ... still no Helfs.
And please, don't imagine I'm ever speaking on behalf of any whiny helf enthusiast just as no helf fan is gonna speak on mine. I disagree entirely with the idea of helfs being added and with the manner many of you choose to support your requests, kinda like you who are fighting windmills now.
The amount of threads based on particular Allied Races/future playable races is founded upon the likelihood of that particular race having the justification for joining said faction.
The sheer amount of High Elf megathreads isn't due to "just people screaming and not being able to get over themselves" it's due to how much has already been input into the game for their possible inclusion.
This is why you don't go around seeing multiple megathreads for Ogres, Wildhammers, Furbolgs, Jinyu, Hozen, etc. It's why only some like High Elf, San'layn, Vulpera are pretty much only the top few. Majority of the former don't have a whole lot going on with them, nor are they actively participating on the fields in Alliance or Horde battles/conflicts.
Because the game developers continue to add onto the presence of these particular multiple megathread races in relation to their respective factions (Alliance or Horde).
So trying to say "show me so much proof of this, compared to High Elves" is already a losing argument because nothing comes close to the level of presence High Elves on Alliance.
How about you show me another race that has the same level of presence among the Horde? Then you may actually have an argument to stand on. As it is, High Elves are completely unique in their situation, thus nothing will ever be comparable to this requested race. Allied or otherwise.
Even the 2nd most highest multiple megathread activity is that of another Elf variant: San'layn/Darkfallen.
I don't see a crusade happening over at those guys, oh probably because Horde players don't care as long as they're the ones getting something out of it.
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The "gottem" stage. One would be stupid to think San'layn would get added if Void Elves are crowned as the "emo/goth elves". San'layn would be redundant in this context.
Which I have specified. But the Silver Covenant consists of mostly former Farstriders (i.e Hunters) who relocated to Dalaran at Veressa's request. While a few of the High Elf Mages loyal to Dalaran also hooked up with the Silver Covenant, it is primarily a Hunter organization. Evidence for this is the SC apes the Farstriders with the title of the leader of the Silver Covenant being Ranger-General, and that the Silver Covenant as an Organization affiliated itself with the Hunter Class Hall in Legion.
They are not neutral, no. But I am trying to explain a technicality. The SC serves Dalaran. Dalaran is neutral. Technically, the SC is neutral. But everyone knows the members of the SC are not neutral. And this is why in the warfront the two SC mages are labelled as 7th Legion. Because the 7th Legion isn't neutral.
I have to disagree with the distinction. Would you argue that the SC was separate from the Kirin Tor forces on the Isle of Thunder for example? The Alliance High Elves are even placed in proximity to the Kirin Tor Peacekeepers outside the city. I believe the SC volunteered to join the Kirin Tor army but due to it's paramilitary nature operated independently, which is what paramilitaries tend to do. But they were a part of the Kirin Tor Force sent to Suramar, meaning the invasion consisted of the rebels, the Horde aligned Blood Elves, the Alliance aligned Night Elves, the neutral forces of Dalaran...and an Alliance friendly paramilitary force that was part of the Dalaran army. But there wasn't an independent High Elf force. If Khadgar was the Kirin Tor commander at that battle, and I feel he was, then he outranked Veressa on the battlefield.
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I can point to feedback, and have done so, showing that the aesthetic was a huge topic of discussion prior to the Void Elves being released. Given that the discussion around the aesthetic was so prevalent, you cannot deny it has fed a healthy skepticism towards claims that people who want High Elves seek them for their looks rather than their lore. Because while you clearly feel very attached to the lore, a lot of the pro High Elf commentary is driven by the desire for the looks.
That is unfortunate for those driven by the lore to be tarred by that brush, but I would argue the general perception of those aware of this debate but not familiar with it's naunces is that the desire is driven by aesthetics and not lore. And that is not a wholly unreasonable stance, a lot of players ARE driven by the aesthetics of a traditional looking Elf.
I think I was careful to differentiate the two groups in my previous reply, but it is beyond my control to influence the zeitgeist. As I stated, while you and many of those in your community are genuinely driven by the lore, the perception outside the community is that it is a desire for a white skinned elf. And this really is an unsurprising viewpoint considering many of those who were actively seeking High Elves contributed to this by demanding normal skins for Void Elves.
Skin tone was the commonly put forward potential 'compromise' in those threads, repeated again and again. I believe that has likely left the impression that the High Elf request is driven by aesthetics rather than lore. This seems to be the impression Ion and other devs have on the matter. Also they are not entirely wrong, some players do just want a blood elf clone on the Alliance.
Saying Void Elves is not the compromise because you personally are unsatisfied with it as an outcome does not diminish that they were clearly intended as a compromise. They are also a compromise that works with the Allied race system, which so far has relied upon taking an existing race, changing the palette and providing a different lore rationale behind them. I cannot speak as to why they selected a hitherto unknown group of Blood Elves as the basis for the group rather than a group of Alliance High Elves. As they, like myself, believe that a High Elves and Blood Elves are the same people divided by a political opinion, perhaps they felt it didn't matter? Or perhaps there are long term narratives we are unaware of where Alliance High Elves or Void Elves will be required to play a role, such as the rumored Silvermoon Warfront.
Void Elves use the same model, with the same faces as Blood/High Elves. I believe that is how it actually is a compromise. Any closer and it moves from compromise to getting everything you wanted, which is where we begin blurring the faction lines. Void Elves must look distinct from Blood Elves in some fashion, and skin tone is the obvious way to do that. The skin tone change is supported in lore as the consequence of their transformation.
The whole point of a compromise is that nobody is satisfied. I am not keen on the thalassian model going to the Alliance, nor am I keen on the kaldorei model going Horde.
That the Mag'har Orcs came from AU Draenor rather than Outland is not a major concern. They are still a group of Orcs who did not drink the blood, In fact, it is even more authentic, as the distinctive clans are represented within the Mag'har in a way they wouldn't be within the Outland versions.
A better story would not have stopped the backlash I am afraid. While you may have been satisfied with a better story, I do not believe everyone else would have been.
Which is a personal approach and one I wouldn't mind, as then they would be Void Elves. But the Alliance High Elves aren't the representatives of the High Elf story. That is the Blood Elves. The Alliance High Elves could become Void Elves, or have Half Elf children, but they don't have their own path anymore.
.....they are portrait ingame like this. Yes there are fair skinned blood elves. But if you look at blood elves in cinematics the above picture is how they are portrait. Just look at the suramar city cinematic. The whole blood elf army looks like that, while the whole high elf looks like the one the left. Clearly blizzard was trying to sepperate there looks.
Yes, and sometimes x people have x hair. 1 person being x does not mean all persons are x. Look at sylvanas boyfriend...the rest of the forsaken also do not look like him.
But GENERALY they are shown like this:
And you can google all you want. If its not ingame its not cannon...i can google a image of wrathion and anduin being lovers....does not make it true.
This video above...shows ingame in 7.3.5 patch how dev's thought high elves and blood elves look different.
and if you look at the 9 BE skin tones the 7 you think are pale...are still very tanned if you put them next to high elf models.
Yet not matter how many of us keep making the point that is about the lore, people will keep arriving to the conversation with the "it's only about the looks" because that is ALSO the narrative that the anti side tries to play up to devalue other opinions. As much as there are people that only care about the aesthetic, there's also a bunch of anti HE that take that argument and propagate it as our most "vocal opinion" because it's the weaker one.
Which is why I say it's unfair to just listen to the most noisy argument. Feedback as given to blizzard about the lore, countless times, and they don't get a free pas because other argument was louder.
Cause again, no matter how many valid and deep arguments we make about lore, it will always be easier to just attack the weaker argument and focus on it as the whole rather than just an aspect. And to solely put the blame of it on the pro HE that just wants the looks rather than also on the anti side that propagates the argument itself, it's shitty.
As well as to conflate the bit "well at least make my VE look more like a HE so I can pretend more easily" with just caring about the aesthetic. That is just conformation bias on your part.
See? That's the thing, skin tone would be at least something more, hence why the compromise argument, but it's definitely on light of not having anything else. So yeah, taking this point as "oh you only care about the skin tone" is just biased. No, I would have rather we had VE made out of HE, this is about getting any scrap.Skin tone was the commonly put forward potential 'compromise' in those threads, repeated again and again. I believe that has likely left the impression that the High Elf request is driven by aesthetics rather than lore. This seems to be the impression Ion and other devs have on the matter. Also they are not entirely wrong, some players do just want a blood elf clone on the Alliance.
And again, saying that "well Ion got the impression it was just about" is just justification for dismissing all the feedback given. Feedback WAS given, across may threads. None of it was actually addressed.
It's not a compromise for High Elves because they are simply not the same group of High Elves that were ALREADY on the alliance. Simply as that. I am totally on board with the aesthetic being the compromise, sure, but if none of the LORE actually fits, how can it ever be a compromise for the people that wanted High Elves? it's a nonsense statement that shows that you legitimally consider the aesthetic the relevant bit. And speaking for myself and others, IT'S NOT.Saying Void Elves is not the compromise because you personally are unsatisfied with it as an outcome does not diminish that they were clearly intended as a compromise. They are also a compromise that works with the Allied race system, which so far has relied upon taking an existing race, changing the palette and providing a different lore rationale behind them. I cannot speak as to why they selected a hitherto unknown group of Blood Elves as the basis for the group rather than a group of Alliance High Elves. As they, like myself, believe that a High Elves and Blood Elves are the same people divided by a political opinion, perhaps they felt it didn't matter? Or perhaps there are long term narratives we are unaware of where Alliance High Elves or Void Elves will be required to play a role, such as the rumored Silvermoon Warfront.
We wanted High Elves because they were already in the alliance. We didn't get that. How is it a compromise? If it was intented as a compromise, it's a horrible one that doesn't even address the reason why some people wanted them.
And again, I stress THIS: If Void Elves had been made of High Elves, my tune would have been another thing entirely now.
The point of a compromise is that BOTH PARTIES CAN WALK AWAY HAPPY. There are compromises suggested that seek to keep the faction integrity, but you cannot obviate the fact that Nightbrone and VE already exist so they ARE precedent for what is doable, so wherther you personally find permisible is irrelevant on the macro level.The whole point of a compromise is that nobody is satisfied. I am not keen on the thalassian model going to the Alliance, nor am I keen on the kaldorei model going Horde.
Pretty irrelevant statement. The point is that you have the whole aesthetic to pretend to be an Outland Mag'har even if the racial backstory is not the same. Again, Lore or Aesthetic by their own could be enough of a compromise for some. Personally I would rather have lore -SC joining the Ren'dorei- but I wouldn't kick a gift horse in the face if we got the aesthetic. It's something at least.That the Mag'har Orcs came from AU Draenor rather than Outland is not a major concern. They are still a group of Orcs who did not drink the blood, In fact, it is even more authentic, as the distinctive clans are represented within the Mag'har in a way they wouldn't be within the Outland versions.
No way to know really. But I do know I would have probably been arguing with people that didn't accept that HE are now blue and voidy rather than you.A better story would not have stopped the backlash I am afraid. While you may have been satisfied with a better story, I do not believe everyone else would have been.
No one here is claiming that the Alliance High Elves are the representatives of the High Elf storyline over Blood Elves, nor I support the notion that either faction can claim the whole of their backstory as their own. Nightborne and Night Elves share a past, that doesn't make their strories any less valid or weaker, VE do so the same with BE, as do HE, but everyone splintered to a different path.Which is a personal approach and one I wouldn't mind, as then they would be Void Elves. But the Alliance High Elves aren't the representatives of the High Elf story. That is the Blood Elves. The Alliance High Elves could become Void Elves, or have Half Elf children, but they don't have their own path anymore.
Sure, BE by most accounts do have the "most" of their heritage, so to speak. That doesn't meant neither VE or HE can't have some of it, that's a silly point to make.
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Like it has been said many times, Kul'tirans didn't have a unique model before BfA, so arguing about "but they don't look different now" is a moot point.
They can come for whatever reason HE could look different retroactively, if the impetus IS to make them different.
So blood elves can have blue eyes?!?!
And btw you are side stepping the point. Blizzard clearly showed a difference between both of the elves.
So every npc species is in the model viewer.....let me check...nope they are not. so this proofs nothing. there are no hobgoblins, nalthanos, fat goblins and many more.
Again watch the INGAME cinematic. It proofs my point. Blizzard make a choice to make them look different.
Otherwise in your logic they would both have elves in the army that look like they are from the same part of the neigberhood.
This is like comparing ginger british people to greek people. They are both white....but it ends there.
IMO void elves are the best allied race