BFA executes as talents: bad move

[huth]

Fun fact: You can disable the smilies/emoticons by using the BB code [noparse][/noparse] such as this: SW:D and sw:p.

Alternatively, you can check out the "Disable smilies in text" option underneath "Additional Options".

Pssh, where's the fun in that.

[Mercane]

Yes this talent system is beyond retarded. Having to switch talents before every boss is annoying.

That's been the norm since, MoP at least, for a number of specs

[Spotnick]

Any examples?

Hammer of Wrath for retribution paladins.

[Sencha]

That's been the norm since, MoP at least, for a number of specs

Yeah I know. Why are you posting this?

[Schattenlied]

Tbh, there was a choice if you were changing talents per fight. The new system where all talents do the same slightly differently is the one where there is no choice. You pick one and theres no reason to ever change cause it's the right solution for every fight.

So, you tell me that their design is very logical. Truth is, they change things for the sake of changing.

There is no choice when the fight decides the talent for you. That is not choice, because by definition choice means you get to choose, you don't get to choose when the fight demands you use a specific talent.

Tuning issues aside, talents should be about customizing playstyle, not "well this fight has adds, I have to use AoE talents even though I hate the way the class plays with them".

[Deleted]

I like the first drafts of the Marksman Hunter talents at least. A bit annoyed at the RNG talents that interact with other RNG talents on a different row, but the talent choices are far less binary than they are now.

Depending on how they balance it all we might end up in the same spot again, but at least it shows some promise.

For me an ideal talent system offers a choice in playstyle somewhat independent of the encounter, without impacting performance too much. I don't want cookie cutter builds that don't shift at all (which is the case right now for most specs) or only slightly depending on whether adds join the fight or not (usually the only factor that changes talent choice).

[kalaratic]

making shadow word death a talent is the class design team's way of communicating, "hey we're still giant glue eating retards, in case you thought we would improve from legion"

[Rekz]

making shadow word death a talent is the class design team's way of communicating, "hey we're still giant glue eating retards, in case you thought we would improve from legion"

I hate to say it but using iconic spells that have been in the game since Vanilla (Hammer of Wrath) and having them take up a slot in the already limited talent selections is incredulous and completely lazy development.

I was watching a very popular streamer and he was happy at first when he heard that they were bringing back hammer of wrath but when he saw it was one of the talent choices he was like WTF.

It's sad how low Blizzard has fallen.

[Nere]

I hate to say it but using iconic spells that have been in the game since Vanilla (Hammer of Wrath) and having them take up a choice in the already limited talent selections is incredulous and completely lazy development.

I was watching a very popular streamer and he was happy at first when he heard that they were bringing back hammer of wrath but when he saw it was one of the talent choices he was like WTF.

It's sad how low Blizzard has fallen.

I agree, I was excited for Bfa especially after that january class blog that talked about how they went overboard with the pruning and would try to fix it. Then alpha hit and not only they didn't revert pruning, instead they doubled down on it. And their stupid mentality of taking iconic abilities and making them talents is completly stupid and shows how lazy and incompetent blizzard class design team is.

[Aldo Hawk]

It's an improvement from legion, you can't argue with that. Seriously just quit the game if all you want to do is think up new ways to be negative about everything.

We had no choice in some tiers because of binary decisions like ST vs AoE. In Bfa you'll choose between 3 different ways of doing the same thing at a basic level, that's more choice.

Stop bitching.

The problem will be about what talent is better, so if we find the cookie cutter build we are out of choices again.

[Kithelle]

Any examples?

Of them being changed to talents?

Shadow word death...they brought back Hammer of wrath as a talent for Ret...Blindside for Assassination is kinda sorta?

[Hctaz]

This issue will come up no matter WHAT the talent row has to offer.

"Oh this particular talent is most useful in -this- kind of fight, so everyone will have to swap during fights with this kind of mechanic" Fight with no burst phase? It's the Sustained talent versus the Burst talent. Got a burst phase? You HAVE TO SWAP to the Burst talent. Oh, this phase has a harder first section? Gotta grab that Alpha Strike talent to increase your initial burst! Heavy movement fight? Well you HAVE to swap your utility row talent over to the movement increase rather than the defense/self-healing increase.

Unless the devs create 1 talent per row and cut the rest, forcing you into that single choice, it will be better to swap in certain situations. Not REQUIRED. But certainly closer to OPTIMAL.

And threads like this will continue to exist.

Yes this talent system is beyond retarded. Having to switch talents before every boss is annoying.

People complain either way. People complain whenever they're locked into one choice, and people complain when they have to swap every time.

I guess the idea is that they want to avoid having the Frost DK/Arms warrior thing happening again? Frost dk had ONE talent choice for pretty much every single fight that was optimal. There was a VERY specific way to play that exact play style, and then they changed the balance mid expansion. Suddenly everybody went from dumping your runes for Frozen Pulse and keeping Icy Talons active to Breath of Sindragosa. Then they changed frost AGAIN to where we now had a completely different playstyle from before.

Arms warriors had that happen once throughout the expansion.

The problem is that some classes have very powerful spec defining talents and others do not. I personally don't think ANY spec should have their entire playstyle determined by their talent choices among some minor differences. For Frost DKs, I think the problem is that their base spec lacks any sort of defining features. There's not really a general gameplan to follow aside from "Hit buttons when you can hit buttons," (I'll elaborate on this further later). Talents end up circumventing this to give them some defining features. Icy Talons maintenance, Frozen Pulse, Breath of Sindragosa, Gathering Storm, and Shattering Strikes all give you something to actively pursue that isn't solely based on RNG. Frost needs some of these things baseline so they have an actual gameplan.

In the case of Arms, the synergies between some talents were so strong that they altered the way that the spec played to a higher degree than I think Blizzard wanted. They killed some of those synergies and the talents became more akin to what they should be.

(Elaboration section): What I mean by Frost DK's lack of a general gameplan is that there is nothing you are deliberately working towards. Everything baseline is either passive, has a regulated Cooldown not affected by anything you consciously do, or is RNG. A talent like Gathering Storm alters this because it gives you a deliberate goal: Get as many stacks of the buff as possible, and then keep your Remorseless Winter going as long as possible. Breath of Sindragosa gives you a gameplan because it provides you something to actively maintain. All of those talents I listed previously give you SOMETHING you can control.

Other specs generally have this gameplay involved in their base spec. Unholy, for example, has the Festering Wounds mechanic. Rogues have combo points. Some classes have the ability to make calculated resource management decisions such as non-fury Warriors, hunters, energy users, and even warlocks. Many specs revolve around maintaining certain buffs or debuffs, and they aren't passive or "hit this once every 30 seconds" like Unholy and Frost's are. Some specs have a large window of damage not relegated to cooldowns, such as Destro warlocks. They actively build up soul shard charges through their efforts, and then unleash them when they choose. There is not a set time to when this happens because there is a little bit of RNG involved, but the RNG in this case makes things interesting because it makes the time between these windows slightly less predictable.


TL;DR Specs need to have their defining features built in with talent choices augmenting certain aspects of their design without completely overhauling what the spec is supposed to do. There's also nothing inherently wrong with changing talents between fights as long as those talents don't drastically alter the gameplay of the spec, such as swapping between the Breath of Sindragosa build, the Frozen Pulse build, and the Obliteration build for Frost dks. If one fight needs an active AoE and another you can just take a passive, then you're good IMO. As long as that active AoE doesn't dramatically alter your normal every day playstyle (*cough* Frostscythe). They should probably also reduce the cost of changing specs mid-raid if they intend to make all of the talents usable depending on the fights.

Number one problem is people having to swap entire playstyles/rotations three or four times in the same raid.

[Deleted]

There is no choice when the fight decides the talent for you. That is not choice, because by definition choice means you get to choose, you don't get to choose when the fight demands you use a specific talent.

Tuning issues aside, talents should be about customizing playstyle, not "well this fight has adds, I have to use AoE talents even though I hate the way the class plays with them".

Not what i think. Atm you just choose what is best and stick to it. Choice to me is to have different situations thrown at me and dfferent options.
Also, wich talent to take would depend on what your role was on the fight. You needed more ST, you go ST on the boss. You need more aoe, you go aoe. Maybe there isn't much AoE or your buddies got it covered but you got high cleave time, you can go for cleave. That was customisation, that was choice and that was fun. That choice was removed from the game.
It's not a great choice if i just pick it once and never think about it again.

[Schattenlied]

Not what i think. Atm you just choose what is best and stick to it.

Tuning aside, that's not the point. Tuning aside, talents are about customizing the way the class plays to better fit what you, the player, finds fun.

Choice to me is to have different situations thrown at me and dfferent options. Also, wich talent to take would depend on what your role was on the fight. You needed more ST, you go ST on the boss. You need more aoe, you go aoe.

Not choice, "need" means it's not a choice, by definition.

Maybe there isn't much AoE or your buddies got it covered but you got high cleave time, you can go for cleave. That was customisation, that was choice and that was fun.

And this is the same as taking a non-min/max talent in the customization system, because doing this is inefficient... If there is not much AoE, everyone just takes ST talents and everyone cleaves for the little amount of time there are adds to cleave because it's more efficient... If you're ok with being inefficient in that scenario, you should be ok with being inefficient in a situation where talents are just playstyle choices.

Even if doing that WERE efficient, which it's not, some people in that group are still having the talent change forced on them for that encounter, so it's still not a choice.

That choice was removed from the game.

No it wasn't, it was just changed into playstyle choices of inefficiency instead of AoEvsST choices of inefficiency.

It's not a great choice if i just pick it once and never think about it again.

If it's your choice what one you pick, not the game's choice, it is a great choice, because it's actually a choice, there is no choice when the game decides for you.

[shaunika123]

I hate to say it but using iconic spells that have been in the game since Vanilla (Hammer of Wrath) and having them take up a slot in the already limited talent selections is incredulous and completely lazy development.

I was watching a very popular streamer and he was happy at first when he heard that they were bringing back hammer of wrath but when he saw it was one of the talent choices he was like WTF.

It's sad how low Blizzard has fallen.

hammer of wrath wasnt in vanilla just fyi ;>

- - - Updated - - -

If it's your choice what one you pick, not the game's choice, it is a great choice, because it's actually a choice, there is no choice when the game decides for you.

that'll literally always be the case

no matter what you do.

there's going to be a best option for a certain situation and you're gonna take that option 100% of the time. it's the game deciding either way

the difference is that if you have to swap between ST / AOE instead of just using the same talents because the other 2 does the same only worse you'll end up with more variety.

[Deleted]

Tuning aside, that's not the point. Tuning aside, talents are about customizing the way the class plays to better fit what you, the player, finds fun.
Not choice, "need" means it's not a choice, by definition.



And this is the same as taking a non-min/max talent in the customization system, because doing this is inefficient... If there is not much AoE, everyone just takes ST talents and everyone cleaves for the little amount of time there are adds to cleave because it's more efficient... If you're ok with being inefficient in that scenario, you should be ok with being inefficient in a situation where talents are just playstyle choices.

No it wasn't, it was just changed into playstyle choices of inefficiency instead of AoEvsST choices of inefficiency.




If it's your choice what one you pick, not the game's choice, it is a great choice, because it's actually a choice, there is no choice when the game decides for you.

Don't you get that that's a pointless choice? If no matter what i choose i made the right choice, there was no choice at all.
Can you imagine a multiple choice question in a test where all the answers are correct? What's the point of that? That's not my answer, it's everyones answer.

The need is the raids need btw. You being able to fulfill different damage types gives you the versatility and choice to what you want to do in the fight.

[Schattenlied]

hammer of wrath wasnt in vanilla just fyi ;>

Yes it was, it was added in patch 1.7.0, september 2005, about 16.5 months before the launch of TBC.

- - - Updated - - -

Don't you get that that's a pointless choice? If no matter what i choose i made the right choice, there was no choice at all.
Can you imagine a multiple choice question in a test where all the answers are correct? What's the point of that? That's not my answer, it's everyones answer.

The need is the raids need btw. You being able to fulfill different damage types gives you the versatility and choice to what you want to do in the fight.

At least it's still a choice. It's not a choice when the game tells you what you have to use.

Can you imagine a multiple choice question in a test where all the answers are correct?

Can you imagine a multiple choice test where every answer is not correct but the test itself tells you, straight out, what the answer is? That's the current system.

There is no choice, you use AoE on AoE and ST on ST and it's completely obvious what should be used when.


Every answer being right, as a form of customization, to tailor the class to be more enjoyable for you personally, is better than the game forcing shit on us... The game forcing shit on us isn't even "pointless choice", it's the illusion of choice, I'd rather have pointless actual choice than the illusion of choice... It's not about right or wrong choices, it's about making the moment to moment gameplay more enjoyable for everyone by allowing them to pick a playstyle that they find most enjoyable.

[shaunika123]

Yes it was, it was added in patch 1.7.0, september 2005, about 16.5 months before the launch of TBC.

- - - Updated - - -



At least it's still a choice. It's not a choice when the game tells you what you have to use.




Can you imagine a multiple choice test where every answer is not correct but the test itself tells you, straight out, what the answer is? That's the current system.

There is no choice, you use AoE on AoE and ST on ST and it's completely obvious what should be used when.


Every answer being right, as a form of customization, to tailor the class to be more enjoyable for you personally, is better than the game forcing shit on us... The game forcing shit on us isn't even "pointless choice", it's the illusion of choice, I'd rather have pointless actual choice than the illusion of choice... It's not about right or wrong choices, it's about making the moment to moment gameplay more enjoyable for everyone by allowing them to pick a playstyle that they find most enjoyable.

scenario A: let's say 4 out of 7 rows offers a choice between AOE cleave and single target
and let's say in a 10 boss raid 4 are single target 4 are AOE and 2 are cleave

now with this system you'll use 15 different talents (or 3-4 different talent sets depending on the cleave/AOE fights)

Scenario B: every row offers 3 different types of the same resulting in there being only one good option since one will always outperform the rest

you'll use 7 different talents on that raid. (or just 1 set forever)

see how even an illusion of choice offers more variety in gameplay than no choice at all?
with scenario B there might as well not even be talents.

even if most of the time it's an illusion of choice sometimes it's not.

like with Eonar you can decide whether u want the AOE talents or the ST talents depending on what your raid lacks, and where you're assigned.

same with portal keeper.

ultimately, no matter what you do, there will never be a true choice because there will always be a best option for a certain situation.
but I'd rather have variety in the abilities/rotations I use, than being able to forcefully gimp my character cos "I like that talent better"

very rarely they strike gold like with incanters flow/rune of power where it's truly up to you and how you play, but that's a lightning in a bottle situation.


not to mention that sometimes they do something like with sub rogues in alpha, where my first talent row offers literally zero benefits AOE.

feels good to play with a talent row that might as well not exist on a fight(excluding ofc utility rows)

[Schattenlied]

scenario A: let's say 4 out of 7 rows offers a choice between AOE cleave and single target
and let's say in a 10 boss raid 4 are single target 4 are AOE and 2 are cleave

now with this system you'll use 15 different talents (or 3-4 different talent sets depending on the cleave/AOE fights)

not by choice.

you'll use 7 different talents on that raid. (or just 1 set forever)

The vastly overwhelming majority of people don't care about a difference in performance equal to margin of error.

see how even an illusion of choice offers more variety in gameplay than no choice at all?

This isn't about variety, variety doesn't matter when people are forced to use things they don't like, things that make the game less fun for them, in a game, which is intended to be fun.

with scenario B there might as well not even be talents.

For mythic raiders and the people who for some reason tryhard in normal/heroic? Ok, sure the talents might as well not exist. For the 90% of players who don't give a shit? They should exist, and this system is better for them.

like with Eonar you can decide whether u want the AOE talents or the ST talents depending on what your raid lacks, and where you're assigned.
same with portal keeper.

Still not choice.

but I'd rather have variety in the abilities/rotations I use

And I'd rather not be forced to change my talents every 30 minutes because the talent system is a heaping pile of shit.

Very rarely they strike gold like with incanters flow/rune of power where it's truly up to you and how you play, but that's a lightning in a bottle situation.

Don't care. They should design it for actual choice, and tune the talents to be as close as possible so people can feel free to choose unless they are a min/max whore.

not to mention that sometimes they do something like with sub rogues in alpha, where my first talent row offers literally zero benefits AOE.

Legion alpha or BFA alpha? In BFA alpha talents are supposed to be about playstyle choice, which means it doesn't have any benefits to AoE because it's a ST row...


In Legion? Rarely happens that way, most talent rows are "does this fight have AoE or ST?"

feels good to play with a talent row that might as well not exist on a fight(excluding ofc utility rows)

Feels good to have to use talents that make me hate the way my class feels because the fight demands them.

[shaunika123]

not by choice.

which as we've established, you never truly have

The vastly overwhelming majority of people don't care about a difference in performance equal to margin of error.

I'm sorry but if you dont care about your performance (indicated by you not wanting to pick the best option) anyway, then just go with the talent you like to AOE fights. what's the difference? you're intentionally gimping yourself either way

This isn't about variety, variety doesn't matter when people are forced to use things they don't like, things that make the game less fun for them, in a game, which is intended to be fun.

you're not forced to do anything, as I've said, if you dont feel forced to pick the best option in one scenario, why do you feel forced in another?

Still not choice.

it never truly is

And I'd rather not be forced to change my talents every 30 minutes because the talent system is a heaping pile of shit.

then... dont if you dont raid mythic you dont need to anyway, you could do normal with no talents on all the rows if that's what you wanted. hence it's completely irrelevant.

Don't care. They should design it for actual choice, and tune the talents to be as close as possible so people can feel free to choose unless they are a min/max whore.

it's literally impossible to design for actual choice 99.9999% of the time the only true example I can think of is incanter's flow vs rune of power for mages. and even there RoP is better it's just WAAAAY harder to max out.

Legion alpha or BFA alpha? In BFA alpha talents are supposed to be about playstyle choice, which means it doesn't have any benefits to AoE because it's a ST row...


In Legion? Rarely happens that way, most talent rows are "does this fight have AoE or ST?"

BFA, and well yeah it's an ST row. but then why dont I have an AOE row? because I dont.

Feels good to have to use talents that make me hate the way my class feels because the fight demands them.

which will always happen if you dont like all the talents. YOU DONT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING UNLESS YOU'RE MYTHIC RAIDING.

you were the very person who said that.
so no matter how the talents look, it doesnt affect you. just pick the one you like.

you cant have your cake and eat it too.

either it matters to me if one talent is better than the other, and then I'm taking it. or it doesnt' and I take what I want.

it works like that in both scenarios.

also, what talent is it that by itself alone makes your class literally unplayable, but yet so powerful you HAVE TO take it for AOE?

cos I cant really think of one.