Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

You very clearly made a point of saying that the show's canon retcons LotR

No I didn't. I didn't say anything of the sort.

You have no reason to reply to me about something you're projecting here, because I did not make any point that the show's canon retcons anything. I have always treated the show as a separate thing from the books, so I don't know why you're coming at me with these bogus explanations for things that have nothing to do with what I've actually said.

I don't think you can apply LOTR's canon, whether from the PJ movies or books or any such, to Rings of Power, because Rings of Power is so far its own adaptation. It doesn't exist in any existing LOTR adaption or book universe. It may pay homage to things said in LOTR, whether from the movies or the books, but it doesn't actually connect to any other adaptation. Rings of Power is its own universe, and anything that leads from RoP straight to LOTR would merely be assumptions.

I brought up Arondir based on your other posts concerning his apparent pointlessness and/or lack of conclusion

And that would be specific to Season 1, so I'm not sure why you think it's necessary to address this by saying Arondir's story isn't finished. My whole point is if he's even crucial to later seasons, they may as well introduce him directly in later seasons. His entire role in this first season was unnecessary to the overall plot. And as a PoV character, his actual story isn't even properly addressed in how he would fit in a Season 2. My criticism is specifically of Season 1 and the treatment of this character and how he fits into the overall plot.

Just saying his story isn't done doesn't settle anything I've talked about, since my whole point is that he could literally be a character that is introduced in later seasons. I am making a point that his lack of conclusion outside of 'starting fresh' doesn't really tie much in to S2. It's hard to say if he will even be back, it's left open like the Harfoots sans Nori.

If I merely wanted to headcanon the fuck out of this show to make sense out of it, I absolutely could, but that isn't the point of any of my criticisms. My point is that the character of Arondir seemed pointless as a POV character, considering I personally think his purpose in the overall arc was contrived, while all the plot elements that connect his purpose in the story as a POV character ended up being given to Galadriel, while his own conclusion is left completely open.

If that is the case, he may as well have been introduced in the later seasons as a character who happened to have history in the Southlands when shit went down, rather than following his journey and splitting up to 5+ PoV arcs in a series that already had very obvious pacing and plot development issues.

Just saying that this character's story is unfinished doesn't address the fact he barely had a story in Season 1 to begin with, and was shoehorned into an already cramped series with too many POV arcs to begin with.

[rhorle]

I still find it weird the Celeborn thing wasn't mentioned till episode 7. The show goes on about her trying to avenge her brother, but not her lover? Yes he is (extremely likely) just to be lost or captured somewhere, but you'd think the show would focus on this more since it would presumably have payoff eventually.

She could have searched high and low for her husband as well and by the time we see her on the show she focused once again on her quest to hunt every last hint of darkness. The dagger could be more important as well. Her brother had it when he got marked by Sauron. What if it was "modified" somehow? Sauron could be using it to influence her during the events of the show.

It still could have been addressed earlier or better though.

[Orby]

for all the shows faults at least we got a pretty good soundtrack

[Syegfryed]

Between this and the lack of evidence to the contrary it seems pretty clear that the show was maintaining with the lore that Celebrimbor's works were primarily in jewelcraft.

Pretty weird to say the show maintain lore in some way, (and the lack of evidence is not evidence by itself) but like i said i stand corrected on that part

As for "bad guy want to make two? lets make three!!" is only an issue if you already know about the One Ring (which of course the characters don't know about yet). Based on what Galadriel knows at this time, Sauron was looking to make the two rings to empower himself and Galadriel if she came to his side. With his plans revealed and his offer refused, it makes sense for for the rings to be made to use AGAINST Sauron and Galadriel explains why three is better than two for keeping a balance of power between the ring bearers.

And the reason of why there is 3 make no sense, it came out of nowhere to give her the spotlight as the reason of why there is 3 rings, its the problem of the rings of the elves coming first, when they are supposed to be done in secret later, it was forced and didn't had any build up of why they should make 3 and not just stop doing it at all.

The whole deal about her being suspicious is also forced to happen, with Celebrimbor repeating words Adar said, but she immediately think on Hallbland, and finding Halbland information with a vulcan elf that there wasn't a king in the southlands in 200 years, but the people there and in numenor didn't had that bit of info.

It was not good to find that bit of info before, but now it is. And you still say there is no problem in the writing and its just nitpicking from us, despite they taking even more time to doa second season because of how massive the clusterfuck was.

[Raisei]

hmm... I'd like to believe that Saurons tip of diluting the Mithril and mixing it with other material is actually making them worse and also part of his "corruption".

Question is, will the show explain how the rings will be linked to the one ring? I'm not so sure.
Maybe they ignore Sauron having to do something with it to begin with since Mithril is supposed to be a mix of good and evil... so he might just take dominion over the evil part. Which would be kind of boring.

Well, he did catch the dagger with his hand, when Galadriel tried to stab the Dark friggin Lord. That same dagger was molten for the rings. If they are smart they will pick this moment as the moment where he established the corruption on them to link them to the One later.
If he has forseen that this pure gold and silver is needed to craft the rings and that the only amount of it in Eregion is that dagger, he could have planned this. But I am not sure they can draw such connections.

[Triceron]

Well, he did catch the dagger with his hand, when Galadriel tried to stab the Dark friggin Lord. That same dagger was molten for the rings. If they are smart they will pick this moment as the moment where he established the corruption on them to link them to the One later.
If he has forseen that this pure gold and silver is needed to craft the rings and that the only amount of it in Eregion is that dagger, he could have planned this. But I am not sure they can draw such connections.

It's contrived to think that Galadriel's dagger is the only source of Valinor Gold and Silver that they had available. That it is even a plot point they used is quite dumbfounding, considering they're literally in an Elf city, that just built a giant tower for smithing, that houses one of the most reknowned Elven smiths. It doesn't make a lot of sense why they needed Galadriel's dagger at all, it just happened to be and everyone agreed it needed to be this specifically.

[Adamas102]

No I didn't. I didn't say anything of the sort.

Oh, fuck off. This has to be the most blatant attempt at gaslighting I've seen on this forum given that your own words are easily seen just a few posts up (or maybe a dissociative personality disorder where you completely forget what you posted earlier). Here, I'll remind you.

You have no reason to reply to me about something you're projecting here, because I did not make any point that the show's canon retcons anything.

After saying:

Eh, the show's canon clearly doesn't work with LOTR and effectively retcons it

-------------------------

I don't think you can apply LOTR's canon, whether from the PJ movies or books or any such, to Rings of Power, because Rings of Power is so far its own adaptation. It doesn't exist in any existing LOTR adaption or book universe. It may pay homage to things said in LOTR, whether from the movies or the books, but it doesn't actually connect to any other adaptation. Rings of Power is its own universe, and anything that leads from RoP straight to LOTR would merely be assumptions.

This is also a bullshit excuse because the show is very much an adaptation of the 2nd Age material. It doesn't simply pay homage, it isn't unconnected from the books or the movies, and it most certainly isn't its own universe. It is very much connected to both in plot and visual style, and firmly anchored by the characters and events outlined in the appendices.

You don't think it's a good adaptation? Fine. There are plenty of adaptations that I don't like either because of divergences from the source material, yet they still exist as adaptations. Sticking your head in the sand about it doesn't change what it is. It just makes you look foolish.

[Triceron]

This is also a bullshit excuse because the show is very much an adaptation of the 2nd Age material. It doesn't simply pay homage, it isn't unconnected from the books or the movies, and it most certainly isn't its own universe. It is very much connected to both in plot and visual style, and firmly anchored by the characters and events outlined in the appendices.

It IS in its own universe, because it's not un a universe that is connected to any book or existing material where characters such as 'Halbrand' would have ever existed.

I'll rephrase then, as I intended to mean that Rings of Power is its own continuity, effectively its own universe, with a completely separate 'LOTR' continuity. It is like considering it a multiverse, where the events that we know of LOTR from the books are going to be changed in order to fit a story that is crafted around the compressed Rings of Power timeline. This includes being a universe that has Sauron taking the form of Halbrand, and all things that were not known of in any other version of LOTR. That's what I meant.

I certainly don't imply that Rings of Power is applicable to any existing Lord of the Rings canon or adaptation. Amazon would literally have to define its own LOTR to make sense of all the current changes it is implementing, because this doesn't fit into any existing adaptation whatsoever.

You don't think it's a good adaptation? Fine. There are plenty of adaptations that I don't like either because of divergences from the source material, yet they still exist as adaptations. Sticking your head in the sand about it doesn't change what it is. It just makes you look foolish.

I've always said this was an adaptation and regarded it as such. I said you can't connect RoP back to any other existing non-Amazon material as a matter of discussion, because they aren't meant to be interchangeable whatsoever. Rings of Power is its own body of work, and the LOTR it refers to is ultimately a separate adaptation that has not yet been adapted by Amazon themselves. It wouldn't be bound to any of the rules set forth by the original book canon or the Peter Jackson movies, because they have already set out to create a new story that has effectively changed the paradigm of the stories already for the 2nd Age in ways that do not work with any current understanding of Lord of the Rings.

That it adapts 2nd Age material also means it will be adapting LOTR in its own way. Therefore we can't really discuss anything that really exists currently in LOTR as a means to retroactively explain what is happening in Rings of Power, because we're working in a completely new continuity that assumes a compressed timeline is in effect. I'll say here and now that my original use of retcon may be a poor choice of words when I intended to mean a new continuity completely.

What I will say is that the show creators may intend on this series to be a direct prequel to the Jackson film trilogy, it is not and can not actually be a prequel because of messy rights issues, and the show itself has diverged in a way where the story has become its own thing with only the loosest connection to the film trilogy by means of character names and sharing source material and film movie designs (which I figure were a part of the liscencing deal).

[Xath]

Oh, fuck off. This has to be the most blatant attempt at gaslighting I've seen on this forum given that your own words are easily seen just a few posts up (or maybe a dissociative personality disorder where you completely forget what you posted earlier). Here, I'll remind you.



After saying:



-------------------------



This is also a bullshit excuse because the show is very much an adaptation of the 2nd Age material. It doesn't simply pay homage, it isn't unconnected from the books or the movies, and it most certainly isn't its own universe. It is very much connected to both in plot and visual style, and firmly anchored by the characters and events outlined in the appendices.

You don't think it's a good adaptation? Fine. There are plenty of adaptations that I don't like either because of divergences from the source material, yet they still exist as adaptations. Sticking your head in the sand about it doesn't change what it is. It just makes you look foolish.

It literally retcons significant chunks such as making Galadriel's husband be dead/missing so they can jam in Sauron ship because of course they do. It's loosely inspired by fanfiction it is most certainly not an adaptation.

[Adamas102]

And the reason of why there is 3 make no sense, it came out of nowhere to give her the spotlight as the reason of why there is 3 rings, its the problem of the rings of the elves coming first, when they are supposed to be done in secret later, it was forced and didn't had any build up of why they should make 3 and not just stop doing it at all.

The Three ARE a secret. You're assuming that Sauron knows they a. followed through and b. made three instead of two. The buildup for making three was there in the show as well. It was Galadriel's answer to Sauron's plan for the rings to create a tyrannical couplet of power. Her reasoning is no worse than Celebrimbor just randomly making 3 by himself. It's never explained in the lore why he only made 3. Did he run out of materials? Run out of time? Decide that 3 was a good number? Did he have the wielders in mind already?

As for the Three being made after the others, the rest of the rings were still handed out to the dwarves and men by Sauron himself after collecting them from Eregion. Maybe they keep it that way in the show (having Celebrimbor make more rings now that they know Sauron is back, because remember they don't know about the One Ring plan) or maybe they cut out the middle part and just have Sauron make and distribute the rings himself. The outcome is still the same. The lore also never explains why Celebrimbor gave a ring he knew Sauron had a hand in making to Durin, so maybe that part will be fleshed out as well.

[Syegfryed]

Also something that is in the appendices that the show retcon:

He(Ar-Pharazô) resolved to challenge Sauron the Great for the supremacy in, Middle-earth, and at length he himself set sail with a great navy, and he landed
at Umbar. So great was the might and splendour of the Númenoreans that Sauron's own servants deserted him; and Sauron humbled himself, doing homage, and craving
pardon. Then Ar-Pharazôn in the folly of his pride carried him back as a prisoner to Númenor. It was not long before he had bewitched the King and was master of his counsel; and soon he had tamed the hearts of all the Númenoreans, except the remnant of the Faithful, back towards the darkness.

[rhorle]

Also something that is in the appendices that the show retcon:

It is a little early to be complaining about something being a retcon when the show hasn't even covered those events. Why not pick one of the many things the show has shown to be changed? Ar-Pharazon can still become King and can still capture Sauron.

[Syegfryed]

The Three ARE a secret. You're assuming that Sauron knows they a. followed through and b. made three instead of two. The buildup for making three was there in the show as well. It was Galadriel's answer to Sauron's plan for the rings to create a tyrannical couplet of power. Her reasoning is no worse than Celebrimbor just randomly making 3 by himself. It's never explained in the lore why he only made 3. Did he run out of materials? Run out of time? Decide that 3 was a good number? Did he have the wielders in mind already?

But whats the difference if it was 2 or 3 in this context? the whole point of the elven rings being done in secret was that they escaped Sauron influence it is not? then how making one more would make any difference when he took part of doing the base for the two? his influence would already be mixed in the materials they used (which btw i don't know how one of then was randomly silver when they melt the dagger entirely and put everything in the same forge).

Making just 3 because they lack materials at least would make sense in what they established in the narrative since the dwarves didn't gave then enough mithrill and they only had Galadriel dagger.

As for the Three being made after the others, the rest of the rings were still handed out to the dwarves and men by Sauron himself after collecting them from Eregion. Maybe they keep it that way in the show (having Celebrimbor make more rings now that they know Sauron is back, because remember they don't know about the One Ring plan) or maybe they cut out the middle part and just have Sauron make and distribute the rings himself. The outcome is still the same. The lore also never explains why Celebrimbor gave a ring he knew Sauron had a hand in making to Durin, so maybe that part will be fleshed out as well.

A plot problem raised from then changing stuff now they have to fix someway that does not feel like its forced or nonsense to justify the plot.

If Celebrimbor does the rings and handle to the other, why those will be corrupted and not the elven rings? why he would make 7 for dwarves and 9 for men when they established that 3 is the perfect number for ~~reasons? Galadriel didn't even said halbland was sauron and this was his plan too, because the characters would likely stop doing it.

If its not him, its sauron who is going to do the rings in mount doom? with what mithril? and just free handle to everyone? but if the elves know about Sauron wanting to make rings they would not find weird that men and dwarves are getting rings of power in middle earth? they will not warn then?

They will make Sauron sweet talk the dwarves into giving then mithril? He is going to put Balrong to sleep so the dwarves can mine or Kazhadun will fall and he will take control of the mines?

everywhere you look the story seems to be convoluted and forced so the events would play out, when the event would likely play out normally if they had followed the original plot.

[Hitei]

It's contrived to think that Galadriel's dagger is the only source of Valinor Gold and Silver that they had available. That it is even a plot point they used is quite dumbfounding, considering they're literally in an Elf city, that just built a giant tower for smithing, that houses one of the most reknowned Elven smiths. It doesn't make a lot of sense why they needed Galadriel's dagger at all, it just happened to be and everyone agreed it needed to be this specifically.

It's been a very long time since they left and when they left it was to go to war. Large amounts of gold and silver sourced from Valinor would be relatively rare, just ornamental things brought with them (like the dagger). It's not like they're sending entire navies back across the sea to ship thousands of hulls of gold to middle earth to build towers, they've built their cities and most current generations of armor and weapons out of local materials.

It's also about the emotional attachment. Creation in the IP involves a mental/spiritual capacity, some small bits of gold and silver Celebrimbor had brought with him from Valinor and had squirreled away are significantly less potent than the gold and silver in a dead loved one's dagger that's been carried for centuries as a both a treasured symbol of love and loss and an inherited vow to endlessly hunt and vanquish evil.

[Syegfryed]

It is a little early to be complaining about something being a retcon when the show hasn't even covered those events. Why not pick one of the many things the show has shown to be changed? Ar-Pharazon can still become King and can still capture Sauron.

Sauron already went there became prisioner and already left, seems likely tis going to be a bit weird to revisit the same plot, and its more likely Karl-Pharazon will do things alone.

Maybe he was already conveniently corrupted by sauron, who knows

[Adamas102]

It IS in its own universe, because it's not un a universe that is connected to any book or existing material where characters such as 'Halbrand' would have ever existed.

I'll rephrase then, as I intended to mean that Rings of Power is its own continuity, effectively its own universe, with a completely separate 'LOTR' continuity. It is like considering it a multiverse, where the events that we know of LOTR from the books are going to be changed in order to fit a story that is crafted around the compressed Rings of Power timeline. This includes being a universe that has Sauron taking the form of Halbrand, and all things that were not known of in any other version of LOTR. That's what I meant.

How does Halbrand's existence contradict the movies? The details that the show is giving weren't mentioned in the movies. You can say that the movies are meant to follow the lore to the letter, but the fact that they don't stray far from the narrative of the LotR itself leaves things open and it seems highly unlikely that Peter Jackson outright say "this isn't how MY version of the 2nd Age would go".

This is indeed similar to the Star Wars in that the sequel trilogy is indeed still the same setting and continuity of the original trilogy even if the original creators weren't involved. That's just how it works when rights are sold and you're the first one to get there.

That it adapts 2nd Age material also means it will be adapting LOTR in its own way. Therefore we can't really discuss anything that really exists currently in LOTR as a means to retroactively explain what is happening in Rings of Power, because we're working in a completely new continuity that assumes a compressed timeline is in effect. I'll say here and now that my original use of retcon may be a poor choice of words when I intended to mean a new continuity completely.

What I will say is that the show creators may intend on this series to be a direct prequel to the Jackson film trilogy, it is not and can not actually be a prequel because of messy rights issues, and the show itself has diverged in a way where the story has become its own thing with only the loosest connection to the film trilogy by means of character names and sharing source material and film movie designs (which I figure were a part of the liscencing deal).

Once Amazon announces a plan to remake LotR themselves into a show, I'll agree. For now though, the visuals make for a connection that cannot be ignored. You say you figure it was part of the licensing deal, but is there proof that Amazon fought against having their show in any way tied to the Peter Jackson movies? They certainly would have been the ones who made the decision to bring on people like John Howe.

When it comes to the divergences, we come back to my giving them the opportunity to make things line up IN THE END. I understand that you're saying we shouldn't assume that the show will conclude in such a way that seamlessly ties to the movies, but at the same time we can't yet say that will not happen. My HOPE is that they will aim for a connected story, and evidence so far doesn't sway from that. But I guess we'll see over the next several years.

[rhorle]

If Celebrimbor does the rings and handle to the other, why those will be corrupted and not the elven rings?

Same reason why Tolkien had it? Magic? Plot device? Remember Sauron never corrupted the 3 elven rings yet still was able to control them with the One ring.

[Adamas102]

It literally retcons significant chunks such as making Galadriel's husband be dead/missing.

That doesn't retcon the movie continuity unless it's revealed that he is indeed dead.

[Shadowferal]

Now it’s over, let’s come out and say it: The Rings of Power was a stinker

The world’s most expensive show – which looked like an episode of Hollyoaks, only with woeful acting – was so inept that every episode left you sniggering

According to Nielsen, it was a conclusive victory for Tolkien, with The Rings of Power viewers watching the first two episodes for 1.25bn minutes, compared with House of the Dragon’s 741m.

But over the weeks, something strange has happened. House of the Dragon has sucked up the spotlight. It has attracted tweets, theories, memes, discussions, all on a rolling boil since the first episode. Meanwhile, if The Rings of Power has been seen anywhere, it was only in places paid for by Amazon. There are billboards and adverts and special Amazon packing tape adorned with the show’s logo. But, in terms of spontaneous, organic excitement, it has been a wilderness.

Why? Well, now that the first season is finally over, there is one clear answer. The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power isn’t very good. It quite often isn’t anywhere near good. There are moments in almost every episode where I have found myself sniggering into my sleeve at how inept it is. And all these misgivings were massively underlined by the finale.

The biggest issue, the one that caused the bulk of the sniggering, was the acting. This is a show with a sprawling cast blasted across a number of locations. And there is no consistency whatsoever. People don’t seem to have been told what sort of show they are acting in. It’s bizarre.

At its best – largely thanks to the thrilling, urgent Morfydd Clark, who clearly felt the sting of every word she spoke – The Rings of Power came off as a pretty good prestige drama. But at its worst, hoo boy. There was some Toast of London-level acting on display, some sherry-breath regional theatre matinee performances stinking up the place. I don’t want to single out any individual actors – partly because it would be cruel, but mainly because I suspect it’s the fault of the directors rather than the actors. Even in Friday’s episode, some of the smaller parts appeared to have beamed in directly from an unaired 1983 episode of Doctor Who. A good director with an overview of the entire series would have steered moments like this into safer territory.

It didn’t end there. Bear McCreary’s ever-present score was syrupy and phoned in, as if he fell asleep on the “Fantasy” preset on his keyboard. The whole thing was lit as if it was an episode of Hollyoaks. Given the sheer amount of money thrown at the show, some of the visual effects were incredibly inept. Tonally, too, the drama didn’t know if it was meant to be for beginner-, intermediate- or expert-level Tolkien fans. As such, it felt like it was made for nobody.

A while ago, someone on the financial side of the television industry reminded me that Amazon isn’t a television company. It’s a mail order business that dabbles in TV to boost its cred. The Rings of Power seems to be a perfect case in point, as if Amazon dumped a billion dollars into it for the headlines, then ignored a lot of the details. The frustrating thing is that there is clearly so much potential here. I just don’t know if I have it in me to watch any more to see if it is ever realised.

[Syegfryed]

Same reason why Tolkien had it? Magic? Plot device? Remember Sauron never corrupted the 3 elven rings yet still was able to control them with the One ring.

But as far i know he was just able to see their thoughts, not control the ones who used the three elven rings, exactly because they were created by Celebrimbor alone.