If Warcraft 4 ever gets made, it should ignore both Warcraft 3 and World of Warcraft.

[mvaliz]

Why would it? Purely from a marketing perspective there's no reason to abandon a major aspect of your playerbase - nor would it be smart to not let W4 lead players to potentially be playing World of Warcraft.

Seriously, it's OK to hate blizz for the direction of the story.

[Kirby9]

Considering how old and immensely popular WCIII and WoW are I imagine that eschewing that lore for games that are less popular and older makes less little sense. It might work, but you risk alienating newer fans who are more familier with the lore as it stands for the past 16 or so years.

Granted, I quit WoW back in 2011 so I don't know how much they fucked with the lore since then, but scrapping every shred lore that has attracted millions of fans seems short-sighted if it is in any way salvageable.

Trust me the lore is trash now. Scrapping it would be salvagable at this point

[Asotcha]

Yeah, Blizzard should ignore two of their most wildly popular and successful games and instead make a direct sequel to a 23+ year old title. Makes perfect sense.

Side note. Every game in the Warcraft franchise has had pretty much the same art design. Blizzard's games have always been "cartoon-like." Going for a more realistic look now would not only feel wrong but would also be boring since as far as games are concerned, more realistic usually just means make everything brown.

Quoted for truth and sensibility.

[Kirby9]

Warcraft 1 was a lot darker than the disneycraft we have now. So Blizzard effectively removed everything that made Warcraft .... Warcraft with WoW.

If I were a creative director of a new RTS, I would be glad to make people like you upset by bringing Warcraft back to its roots. If you want disneycraft, you can still play WoW and to some extent WarIII.

I agree with you for the most part, but another idea is that they could (and should) re-release both Warcraft I and II, albeit with updated graphics, gameplay and cinematics. Then release Warcraft 4 right after and have that serve as the rebooted sequel to the first two Warcraft games (effectively erasing WC3: Rein of Chaos and WoW from the canon lore), your idea for a reboot of the Warcraft franchise you laid out earlier would best serve as just that.

Side Note: I couldn't agree with the races being minimal! One Dwarven race, one Elf race (High Elves) and one Orchish race (no Maghar or whatever).

[Kirby9]

I am guessing you didn't actually read the article I linked because we are not talking simple influence here, they literally considered obtaining a licence for the Warhammer universe to make a Warhammer RTS before ultimately choosing to go with an original IP instead.

I mean disaster from a business stand point. Looking at estimated sales for the series as a whole, Warcraft and Warcraft II together sold around 3mil total copies. Warcraft 3 alone shipped at least that many and of course WoW had around 10ish million active subs at it's peak. Regardless of what game you personally think is the best, the fact is when the vast majority of people hear the name "Warcraft" they will think of WoW or War3. If Blizzard were to come out at E3 and announce a new Warcraft RTS and then say that they are going to totally ignore the far more recognizable games in the series and instead make the new game a direct sequel to the first game in the series, that would be a colossal mistake.

We're not talking about the first game in the series, we're talking about the second game,Warcraft II:Beyond the Dark Portal, which is just as recognizable was Warcraft III. Warcraft II was when the lore of the franchise really picked up and many people within the Warcraft fandom and those outside of it know of Warcraft II, namely because Beyond the Dark Portal was a smash hit back in the 90s and although it gave rise to Warcraft III obviously, its successor and World of Warcraft retconned, contradicted and ignored the lore of that game and the book adaptation of it.

Meanwhile WoW continues to retcon itself. You can literally split WoW into three now. Vanilla to WOTLK is where Old WoW that began with WC3 stops whereas CATA - WoD is a separate continuity practically same with Legion and BFA. If you re-read my original post, its as I said: It's almost like Chris Metzen and the Devs at the time of WC3 all the way to Cataclysm just changed things just for the sake of changing things. Even the WoW fandom gets irritated by this. I go on Battle.net every now and then and people get pissed off at these retcons. Most recent example of this is with the leaks from the upcoming novel, Before the Storm.

Some have voiced exactly what I'm talking about with WC2, WC3 and WoW and I don't blame them honestly.

Also, the constant retconning and the other stuff that's been done to the franchise is hurting their sales and subs.

Hence why I'd say they should 1. Release remastered versions of the first two Warcraft games for starters i.e. with updated graphics, gameplay, etc. That way everyone will be re-introduced to the original games and then 2. Release Warcraft 4 that would serve as a rebooted sequel to Warcraft I and II. The idea zEmini posted on here would serve well for this as I said before.

Trust me, it would not be a colossal mistake if they market the game like how I listed above.

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Off Topic but kinda on topic:


Are there any good RTS games out these days?

I'm talking AoE, Command & Conquer or Warcraft 3 quality RTS games.

At the moment, I can't think of any out there. The genre appears to be dying from what I can tell..

[Krastyn]

We're not talking about the first game in the series, we're talking about the second game,Warcraft II:Beyond the Dark Portal, which is just as recognizable was Warcraft III.

This is a point of opinion, but I would disagree. WC3 is way more recognizable, both because of the game itself, and the multiplayer custom games it spawned (see DotA, for example).

Warcraft II was when the lore of the franchise really picked up and many people within the Warcraft fandom and those outside of it know of Warcraft II, namely because Beyond the Dark Portal was a smash hit back in the 90s

The lore was not that great in WCII. It was actually the mechanic change in WC3 that some dislike, but also lead to the better focus on lore and story: Hero units. You can't really do much for story when it is just random units x/y/z clearing a map. When you have hero units involved though, you can develop story during the dame much more effectively than with generic units.

Also, the constant retconning and the other stuff that's been done to the franchise is hurting their sales and subs.

This is pure speculation. The number one thing affecting their franchise is age. Both of the game and of the player base. While totally anecdotal, none of the people I played WoW with since I started quit because of retconning. You seem to think a lot of people are way more involved in the overall WCU lore than actually are. The number of people who would even care enough to post on Battlenet, here, or any other forum is but a small fraction of the player base. The people doing so are already way more invested than the average player. So taking what you see from a forum is a polluted sample.

Hence why I'd say they should 1. Release remastered versions of the first two Warcraft games for starters i.e. with updated graphics, gameplay, etc. That way everyone will be re-introduced to the original games and then 2. Release Warcraft 4 that would serve as a rebooted sequel to Warcraft I and II. The idea zEmini posted on here would serve well for this as I said before.

Remastering a game released in 1994 that sold a million copies would be a waste of time and resources. You're trying to convince new people to come to a franchise by making them buy remasters of two other games? Games to which probably 90%+ of their current player base have never played? WC1 was very light on story, and very light on mechanics. It would not shine well in a remaster.

If you're going to make WC4 be a retconned story (which is what you are asking for), it would make way more sense for Blizzard to just pick a different time (either before or after the events of WC1->WoW) Release it as WC4, and then if you really wanted, you can then have that be a lead in to WoW 2.0, or just simply a WC5.

If they were to take the route you propose, it would be a hard pass for me. And I still have my copies of WC1, 2, and 3.

[Kirby9]

This is a point of opinion, but I would disagree. WC3 is way more recognizable, both because of the game itself, and the multiplayer custom games it spawned (see DotA, for example).

I edited what I said earlier. WC2: Beyond the Dark Portal is arguably as recognizable as WC3. The game itself is not as much of a factor, but more along the lines of the generation gap. WC3 had a different following than the previous Warcraft games and WoW as of now has a new following from WC3 at this point. Each installment except for WC1 maybe had an impact on other franchises. But I get your point none the less.

The lore was not that great in WCII. It was actually the mechanic change in WC3 that some dislike, but also lead to the better focus on lore and story: Hero units. You can't really do much for story when it is just random units x/y/z clearing a map. When you have hero units involved though, you can develop story during the dame much more effectively than with generic units.

I'd hardly call units outside of Hero units generic. Also, there were several campaigns that would get confusing from time to time. The mechanic changed imo sucked and it didn't help the lore that much.

This is pure speculation. The number one thing affecting their franchise is age. Both of the game and of the player base. While totally anecdotal, none of the people I played WoW with since I started quit because of retconning. You seem to think a lot of people are way more involved in the overall WCU lore than actually are. The number of people who would even care enough to post on Battlenet, here, or any other forum is but a small fraction of the player base. The people doing so are already way more invested than the average player. So taking what you see from a forum is a polluted sample.

Granted, I might've overstated this part and that's my bad. There are plenty of people beyond the forums however who've been tuning out of the lore though, can't deny that one. The main reason for quitting is because the gameplay has deteriorated since WOTLK. Which brings me to another point: With the next installment, should it come that is, Warcraft needs to either A: Return to its RTS roots with the next game or B: become more of a tactical Third-person RPG similar to Diablo or the old Fallout games e.g. Fallout: Tactics.

Remastering a game released in 1994 that sold a million copies would be a waste of time and resources. You're trying to convince new people to come to a franchise by making them buy remasters of two other games? Games to which probably 90%+ of their current player base have never played? WC1 was very light on story, and very light on mechanics. It would not shine well in a remaster.

To be fair, I did say that they should release Warcraft I and II with updated gameplay mechanics, cinematics, etc. Hell, they could even expand on the lore a bit with those new cinematics. Now if what I'm speaking of is not a remaster, than please correct me on it. But to say that it wouldn't shine well with up to date gameplay mechanics and all? I doubt that would be the case entirely.

If you're going to make WC4 be a retconned story (which is what you are asking for), it would make way more sense for Blizzard to just pick a different time (either before or after the events of WC1->WoW) Release it as WC4, and then if you really wanted, you can then have that be a lead in to WoW 2.0, or just simply a WC5.

If they were to take the route you propose, it would be a hard pass for me. And I still have my copies of WC1, 2, and 3.

I solemnly and respectfully disagree.

[Krastyn]

I'd hardly call units outside of Hero units generic. Also, there were several campaigns that would get confusing from time to time. The mechanic changed imo sucked and it didn't help the lore that much.

Producing 572 of the exact same peons on a map does not build any lore or character depth. Producing 124 archers on a map does not build any lore or character depth. Having one named unit builds lore and character depth (if told right). WC1 and WC2 were basically story-map-story-map-story-map. Within each individual map, there was little to no story or lore development. You finished a map to get more of the story. WC3 had many levels where story was told through the level. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.

There are plenty of people beyond the forums however who've been tuning out of the lore though, can't deny that one.

Still the minority.

The main reason for quitting is because the gameplay has deteriorated since WOTLK.

This again, is just speculation. Unless you have some trove of Blizzard's data that lists why people are quitting, it's just an anecdotal guess. For my guild of locals (friends/associates that lived in the same city as me) that peaked at around 35 people in WotLK, we were down to around 8 at the start of Legion, and currently at two (I'm not one of them). Pretty much to a person the reason is age. Either the age of the game itself of the age of the player. For a game that has been around 14 years, very few people will have the same priorities in life over 14 years. We all started playing around the university age. As time went on people got careers and families. I went from raiding 4-5 nights a week in vanilla to 2-3 in WotLK, 2 in Cata, then basically stopped until Legion where it was once a week. That's all the time I was willing to put in. Too many other things I'd rather do.

On top of that for me it's just the age of the game. How many times is my character going to be called upon to save the world one day, then literally sift through shit the next, only to then save the world again the next week. The alliance and horde hate each other. Now we're besties saving the world. Now we hate each other. Now we're besties saving the world. Repeat. It's old. I'd be way more interested
in a WoW 2.0 set in the future or past than an expansion to WoW. I haven't logged in since October, and haven't read anything about BfA because the whole concept just seems more of the same.

With the next installment, should it come that is, Warcraft needs to either A: Return to its RTS roots with the next game or B: become more of a tactical Third-person RPG similar to Diablo or the old Fallout games e.g. Fallout: Tactics.

I can't see them making it like Diablo as they already have Diablo. RTS seems like the only way, but it depends if people would actually go back to the RTS genre.

To be fair, I did say that they should release Warcraft I and II with updated gameplay mechanics, cinematics, etc. Hell, they could even expand on the lore a bit with those new cinematics. Now if what I'm speaking of is not a remaster, than please correct me on it.

Typically you don't expand on lore, or deviate much from mechanics unless it is fixing things that were known problems or disliked.

I just don't know why if you wanted to spend the time to update graphics, make cinematics, create new lore (expanding lore is still creating lore), just make a new game.

With the version you propose, basically ignoring WC3 & WoW and creating a new WoW lore from WC2 on, who is your target audience?

[OnlineSamantha]

Why do you keep pointing specifically to Reign of Chaos? Was The Frozen Throne good enough to be included or does that also deserve the boot? Regardless of the answer, I don't think any of them deserve to not be included, especially since Warcraft 3 is generally considered more memorable than Warcraft 1 or 2.

[zEmini]

Typically you don't expand on lore, or deviate much from mechanics unless it is fixing things that were known problems or disliked.

I just don't know why if you wanted to spend the time to update graphics, make cinematics, create new lore (expanding lore is still creating lore), just make a new game.

With the version you propose, basically ignoring WC3 & WoW and creating a new WoW lore from WC2 on, who is your target audience?

The game can be retold in RTS format. We see this in SC2/War3 especially. I dont see what the problem is other than having to change the game into being episodic. Humans didn't win the first war for instance.

Because that is what most people like...remakes/remasters to their favorite games. I think it is the vocal minority that dislikes such things honestly. Were you upset about the Remastered SC?

Target audience is Warcraft and RTS fans.

[Nnyco]

unless you want a story between wc2 and wc3 there isnt much you can do, not to mention that ignorin the two biggest parts of warcraft would be pretty idiotic and would just cause more unnececery retcon

[Krastyn]

Because that is what most people like...remakes/remasters to their favorite games. I think it is the vocal minority that dislikes such things honestly. Were you upset about the Remastered SC?

Again, I don't think people like remakes / remasters of their favorite games. I also don't think most people hate it, either. The vast majority simply don't care. Developers can remaster anything they want. I definitely was not upset about the remastered SC. I also definitely won't be buying it. The only reason I would buy a remastered WC3 is for the custom maps it would spawn.

I personally don't care for remasters. I'd prefer new games.

Target audience is Warcraft and RTS fans.

That statement isn't quite true though. If WC4 was going to be an RTS set pre WC1 or post WoW, then that satement holds. If your plan is you ignore everything that happened WC3-WoW and create new lore with the same characters in the same time period then you're narrowing your target. you would alienate anyone who actually enjoyed the story from WC3-WoW.

Even out of those two subsets, who is your primary target: Warcraft or RTS fans?

[Rosefern]

I agree with the people here who have said if there were to be a "new" Warcraft game, I would rather see it time jump forward then try to rewrite existing time periods.
retconning WoW and Warcraft 3 entirely would feel SO wasted. I know the lore's a mess, but Jump forward 1000 years as suggested here and retcon/rewrite some aspects out as "legends" that have decayed truth over time.

[breadisfunny]

Yeah, Blizzard should ignore two of their most wildly popular and successful games and instead make a direct sequel to a 23+ year old title. Makes perfect sense.

Side note. Every game in the Warcraft franchise has had pretty much the same art design. Blizzard's games have always been "cartoon-like." Going for a more realistic look now would not only feel wrong but would also be boring since as far as games are concerned, more realistic usually just means make everything brown.

wod's and legions story are a disgrace to decent story,writing and plot development. there are plot holes and inconsistancies you can drive a aircraft carrier through. it's fucking terrible writing.

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Quoted for truth and sensibility.

there is nothing sensible about embracing really bad storytelling just because it's 'popular.' mcdonald's food sells well and you don't see it being hailed as the best food ever produced by mankind. in fact it's some of the worst 'food' you can eat.

[Kirby9]

The game can be retold in RTS format. We see this in SC2/War3 especially. I dont see what the problem is other than having to change the game into being episodic. Humans didn't win the first war for instance.

Because that is what most people like...remakes/remasters to their favorite games. I think it is the vocal minority that dislikes such things honestly. Were you upset about the Remastered SC?

Target audience is Warcraft and RTS fans.

What zEmini said is exactly what I'm referring to. A remaster/remake of Warcraft I and II should be released and then Warcraft 4 should be released a year later serving as a rebooted sequel to them, taking elements from WC3: Rein of Chaos/Frozen Throne and World of Warcraft.

And yes, target audience would be Warcraft fans and RTS fans or even Tactical RPG fans (i.e. Diablo and Fallout 1, 2 and Tactics) should Blizzard NOT want to return to RTS that is.

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wod's and legions story are a disgrace to decent story,writing and plot development. there are plot holes and inconsistancies you can drive a aircraft carrier through. it's fucking terrible writing.

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there is nothing sensible about embracing really bad storytelling just because it's 'popular.' mcdonald's food sells well and you don't see it being hailed as the best food ever produced by mankind. in fact it's some of the worst 'food' you can eat.

Amen to this guy here! Spot on!

[Deleted]

How about it ignores neither of those two and is instead set before WC1?

There are tons of storylines to explore, War of the Ancients, Troll Wars, Titans vs Black Empire, Orcs vs Draenei, Orcs Vs Ogres, War of Three Hammers, Pandaren Rebellion and so on.

Just expand on the universe instead of acting like it never happened

[Steelangel]

-Technologically starved society. Nothing beyond medieval steel and some black powder reserved just for the wizards. (think LotR) I don't want to see guns or tanks.
-No overuse of magic. You still have your mages and clerics, but I would much rather keep it low fantasy.

I would fucking LOVE a game where black powder and black powder handguns were a weapon only for wizards (who are mostly alchemists), and magic (such as it is) would be only cantrips and relatively low-level stuff outside of huge ritual magic.

[Kirby9]

Again, I don't think people like remakes / remasters of their favorite games. I also don't think most people hate it, either. The vast majority simply don't care. Developers can remaster anything they want. I definitely was not upset about the remastered SC. I also definitely won't be buying it. The only reason I would buy a remastered WC3 is for the custom maps it would spawn.

Ok first off, when I was talking about remastering the game, I was talking more along the lines of remakes of those games (NOT reboots obviously) with updated gameplay, cinematics and 3d graphics overall added.

Second, the statement you made about people liking remakes or remasters of the games they previously played is debatable. There are some good remakes of games that everyone loves to play and some that can't catch the original. Then there are some remastered versions of games like Halo: Combat Evolved Anniversary that people really liked and there is Dark Souls: Remastered that a lot of the fans don't like.

It all depends on how the company and the Dev team in charge goes about them, remakes or remasters, it's how they make them. Blizz can make good remasters, but as for remakes that's yet to be seen, let alone reboots of anything.

That statement isn't quite true though. If WC4 was going to be an RTS set pre WC1 or post WoW, then that satement holds. If your plan is you ignore everything that happened WC3-WoW and create new lore with the same characters in the same time period then you're narrowing your target. you would alienate anyone who actually enjoyed the story from WC3-WoW.

Same time period? Which time period are you referring to? If you mean the same time period that WC3 and WoW take place in then that wouldn't be narrowing any target audience. To put it in better context, its as I said before, to reiterate: Releasing Warcraft 4 and having that game serve as a rebooted sequel to Warcraft I and II while taking elements of WC3 and WoW wouldn't necessarily narrow your target audience. Also, if you plan to introduce Warcraft to people who haven't played any of the Warcraft games before or new generations, this could benefit. Moreover, if the story of the rebooted sequel to WC1 and WC1 is told well, critics will praise it, gamers will take whiff of that and check it out and then it would grow in popularity, then all Blizz would have to do is make an expansion to that rebooted sequel.

Won't lie, there would be some that wouldn't like it due to the nostalgia they have for WC3 and WoW, but it wouldn't make the new game a buzz kill or a franchise killer. [/QUOTE]

Even out of those two subsets, who is your primary target: Warcraft or RTS fans?

As I said in a reply to someone else on here, the primary target would be both. If you enjoyed RTS games overall from Starcraft, Halo Wars, Age of Empires, etc. then the new Warcraft game could be a throwback to that. If you like the Warcraft games from start to finish (or maybe a selective few) and the stories they have in the novels, manga, comics, etc. including the Alternative Universe comic stories (the What ifs they make every so often) then you would like this game too.

Now, if Blizzard doesn't want to return to RTS I can understand that too. A TRPG like Diablo or Fallout: Tactics would work as well for a new Warcraft game. I know we already have Diablo, but we also had Warcraft and Starcraft as two RTS games side by side too.

None the less. There is the answer to your question.

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I would fucking LOVE a game where black powder and black powder handguns were a weapon only for wizards (who are mostly alchemists), and magic (such as it is) would be only cantrips and relatively low-level stuff outside of huge ritual magic.

Same here! It would epic!

[Florena]

Scrap wc3? The point in the franchise where the lore became interesting, and they started fleshing things out? No thank you. I'm sure WC 2 is fine and dandy as a game especially for its time, but story wise I don't want to go back to the days of 1 dimensional orcs and the elves just being LOTR elves etc.

Yes WC3 brought with it retcons, but retcons aren't necessarily bad when they lead to a more interesting story.

[Linkedblade]

The problem with Warcraft and Warcraft II, is that half of the lore in those games is not canon.