Forced personal loot = better balance for top 10 guilds

[fozian]

First of all, I will state I am pro forced personal loot. But I honestly find it hard to see a good thing about not having forced personal loot. What is it that makes ML so important in guild runs? I, myself have been in a guild that did cutting edge achievements, and still prefer PL over ML. What I the idea was for ML was to give the items to people that needed it the most, making the people who makes the least effort get the most items from the raids(not grinding m+ for example). All this sounds good, since you literally gear the raid for the greater good, instead of feeding one person. But it feels pretty demotivating to give items to all the lazy people who don't farm gear besides raids.
I mean, that lazy raiders will still get a extra loot even with PL, but instead of getting that wf/tf item you need to upgrade your gear, you get to keep it. It might not even be tradeable because it's a so big ilvl upgrade.

Oh well, enough of why I prefer PL over ML in normal guild groups.

Every new raid tier top guilds race to be the first to down the last boss in the current tier. With every expansion the top 10 guilds play more and more and go to further and further extremes just to get an edge over the others. Split raids is a great example of what happens just to get an edge gearwise to clear everything before anyone else. Guilds makes 5 split farm groups and funnel all the gear to the main raiders with ML. This gives them a huge edge compared to any top 50 guild that dont have time for 5 split farm groups AND progression afterwards. I believe this will be way more balanced in BFA due to personal loot. Simply because undergeared alts can't give all the good pieces to main raiders without having the same ilvl item themselves.
This makes it WAY harder to split farm, making the top 10 guilds more equal and a better "race" to world first (IMO).

[Frolk]

Maybe a better top 10 race, but the other 11th to 1000th mythic guilds gets it worse with forced PL, they should have made it so u could pick, ML with 6 drops or PL with 8 drops.

Split raiding as an argument for forced PL is dumb.

[callipygoustp]

TL;DR : Another person giving their opinion on how other people should play the game.

[bowchikabow]

TL;DR : Another person giving their opinion on how other people should play the game.

Not even his opinion. Just his logic for agree with Blizzard ridiculously dumb idea.

[Powerogue]

Especially with the nerfs to titanforging that are planned, that would seemingly make it even less of a concern than it already was with "well yeah this is an upgrade for me but it's more of an upgrade for him but it won't let me trade it." A situation I encountered a whopping once or twice over the entire expansion. People overblow the significance of ML to progression massively. Hell, the significance of gearing to progression for that matter. 100% of bosses we beat were due to more people competently handling the mechanics rather than that .1% extra dps.

But people will quit over it anyway because this is the WoW community, damn it, we quit over upgraded character models.

[callipygoustp]

What Blizzard should have done is restrict how much time, per week, that an account can spend in a raid instance. Once you hit that limit, you're locked out till the next week. That way people can't do multiple gearing runs per week! All high end raiders would be on equal footing!
Heavy HEAVY sarcasm

[fizzlewizzle]

my biggest issue with this is that blizzard assumes it knows what is an upgrade for you. Yes 15 ilevels should be an upgrade regardless of stats (especially with secondaries tuned down this exp), but is a 5ilvl increase with crap stats better than the item you've gotten? I can't trade it to my guildy that really wants it.

Either scrap forced personal loot in guild groups or enable trading of items that are within 10 ilvls of your current piece

Alternatively get rid of war/titanforging altogether and this isn't really an issue. God i hate the warforged system.

[Thagrynor]

First of all, I will state I am pro forced personal loot. But I honestly find it hard to see a good thing about not having forced personal loot. What is it that makes ML so important in guild runs? I, myself have been in a guild that did cutting edge achievements, and still prefer PL over ML. What I the idea was for ML was to give the items to people that needed it the most, making the people who makes the least effort get the most items from the raids(not grinding m+ for example). All this sounds good, since you literally gear the raid for the greater good, instead of feeding one person. But it feels pretty demotivating to give items to all the lazy people who don't farm gear besides raids.
I mean, that lazy raiders will still get a extra loot even with PL, but instead of getting that wf/tf item you need to upgrade your gear, you get to keep it. It might not even be tradeable because it's a so big ilvl upgrade.

Oh well, enough of why I prefer PL over ML in normal guild groups.

Every new raid tier top guilds race to be the first to down the last boss in the current tier. With every expansion the top 10 guilds play more and more and go to further and further extremes just to get an edge over the others. Split raids is a great example of what happens just to get an edge gearwise to clear everything before anyone else. Guilds makes 5 split farm groups and funnel all the gear to the main raiders with ML. This gives them a huge edge compared to any top 50 guild that dont have time for 5 split farm groups AND progression afterwards. I believe this will be way more balanced in BFA due to personal loot. Simply because undergeared alts can't give all the good pieces to main raiders without having the same ilvl item themselves.
This makes it WAY harder to split farm, making the top 10 guilds more equal and a better "race" to world first (IMO).

So rather than "reward" the top, top guilds who put in the extra effort to get the most out of the system, you want the World First Race (which I personally don't even see how anyone outside of the race even gives a shit about, but that is another discussion altogether) to rely on RNG as to who gets what? So one guild, who might be objectively worse, gets lucky and has the gear go to the "right" people (healers or whatever who have been lacking in getting drops from dungeons in their gear up to the race) while other guilds who also got unlucky in the gear up that should win get screwed because RNG decided to give the gear to DPS that amount to relatively small upgrades?

That is like watching the Superbowl and saying, "OK, we will randomly decide how many time outs each team gets, and which players get padding and shoes, and which get to make substitutions, and which get to have coaches on the field. It will totally make it much more fair for every one!"

The only way to make the race "fair" and therefore, more skill based (which is what I assume you are hoping for), is to give everyone a template of stats/gear up until the raid is fully cleared. Forcing a loot system that some don't want isn't the way to do it.

[Deleted]

First of all, I will state I am pro forced personal loot. But I honestly find it hard to see a good thing about not having forced personal loot. What is it that makes ML so important in guild runs? I, myself have been in a guild that did cutting edge achievements, and still prefer PL over ML. What I the idea was for ML was to give the items to people that needed it the most, making the people who makes the least effort get the most items from the raids(not grinding m+ for example). All this sounds good, since you literally gear the raid for the greater good, instead of feeding one person. But it feels pretty demotivating to give items to all the lazy people who don't farm gear besides raids.
I mean, that lazy raiders will still get a extra loot even with PL, but instead of getting that wf/tf item you need to upgrade your gear, you get to keep it. It might not even be tradeable because it's a so big ilvl upgrade.

So because you won't join a guild with more like minded people they should force PL.

Just make it a option and let the guild decide!

[fozian]

Maybe a better top 10 race, but the other 11th to 1000th mythic guilds gets it worse with forced PL, they should have made it so u could pick, ML with 6 drops or PL with 8 drops.

Split raiding as an argument for forced PL is dumb.

How will it be a worse experience for you as a mythic raider? I mean, we are still able to trade items that a not needed in case you get an item that is lower ilvl than your current items. If you read the beginning you will see I am still pro PL even when it's not top 10 guilds. Simply because you don't rewards lazy people that don't farm mythic plus to push the numbers.
But please tell me a specific situation where PL will fuck you over compared to ML. The only downside I can see is you are not feeding gear for the greater good all the time, but it's only in cases where another guy will get an upgrade.

[Schezuan]

Especially with the nerfs to titanforging that are planned, that would seemingly make it even less of a concern than it already was with "well yeah this is an upgrade for me but it's more of an upgrade for him but it won't let me trade it." A situation I encountered a whopping once or twice over the entire expansion. People overblow the significance of ML to progression massively. Hell, the significance of gearing to progression for that matter. 100% of bosses we beat were due to more people competently handling the mechanics rather than that .1% extra dps.

But people will quit over it anyway because this is the WoW community, damn it, we quit over upgraded character models.

Took the words right out my mouth!

[Frolk]

How will it be a worse experience for you as a mythic raider? I mean, we are still able to trade items that a not needed in case you get an item that is lower ilvl than your current items. If you read the beginning you will see I am still pro PL even when it's not top 10 guilds. Simply because you don't rewards lazy people that don't farm mythic plus to push the numbers.
But please tell me a specific situation where PL will fuck you over compared to ML. The only downside I can see is you are not feeding gear for the greater good all the time, but it's only in cases where another guy will get an upgrade.

I get an 980 ring for my UH with crit/vers, that is 100% useless for me, and ill have to make it gather dust in bank or shard it, if had been ML, it would have gone to someone who uses those 2 stats. And for mythic raiding, u gear dps>healers>tank, with PL u got little to no control over that.

Its beyond me that any serious mythic raider will be for forced PL in mythic raids, it actually hurts my brain.

[Aktec]

How will it be a worse experience for you as a mythic raider? I mean, we are still able to trade items that a not needed in case you get an item that is lower ilvl than your current items. If you read the beginning you will see I am still pro PL even when it's not top 10 guilds. Simply because you don't rewards lazy people that don't farm mythic plus to push the numbers.
But please tell me a specific situation where PL will fuck you over compared to ML. The only downside I can see is you are not feeding gear for the greater good all the time, but it's only in cases where another guy will get an upgrade.

You are going with the assumption that loot councils will automatically give the item to the highest upgrade in terms of ilevel, its a factor but there are many factors that go into the decison in a good loot council and just because its the highest ilev upgrade does NOT mean the item is going to go to that person,

You want a specific scenario where ML is superior over PL? Lets take the current raid tier, the trinket off varimathras is bis for many melee specs however not for all specs. Lets say that trinket drops for your ww monk at 5 item levels higher than his felhounds trinket. Its a complete waste of a potentailly bis item for other people because that monk wont use that trinket and even though other people want it they cant have it because of the rule where you cant trade higher ilev items than the one you have.

P.s. The reason that trading items isnt such a big deal in legion is because we have legendaries for pretty much every slot atm so it 'covers' the potential non upgrades you recieve. In bfa this is not the case so trading restricions will become a much bigger deal.

- - - Updated - - -

Especially with the nerfs to titanforging that are planned, that would seemingly make it even less of a concern than it already was with "well yeah this is an upgrade for me but it's more of an upgrade for him but it won't let me trade it." A situation I encountered a whopping once or twice over the entire expansion. People overblow the significance of ML to progression massively. Hell, the significance of gearing to progression for that matter. 100% of bosses we beat were due to more people competently handling the mechanics rather than that .1% extra dps.

But people will quit over it anyway because this is the WoW community, damn it, we quit over upgraded character models.

The reason it happened so rarely in legion was because you had legendaries to cover pretty much every slot, it will become a LOT more prevelant in bfa

[iamthedevil]

My guess is that this will not turn out as poorly people think it will turn out, much like many of the changes wow has made over the years.

[Bryci]

Better balance for everyone. When will people understand that top guilds ran 4-5 split runs per week which means any other guild that did not do the same was already a month behind in loot in the first week and it just kept piling up. Raids had to be tuned way higher just becaues of blizzard had to take into consideration that split raiding is a thing and they knew that these guilds get months of farming worth of loot in 1-2 weeks so the raid wouldn't last a week.. not that it last much longer but you know what I mean. It had to be fixed end of discussion.

[Deleted]

I get an 980 ring for my UH with crit/vers, that is 100% useless for me, and ill have to make it gather dust in bank or shard it, if had been ML, it would have gone to someone who uses those 2 stats. And for mythic raiding, u gear dps>healers>tank, with PL u got little to no control over that.

Its beyond me that any serious mythic raider will be for forced PL in mythic raids, it actually hurts my brain.

It's so easy isn't It?
So many people just acting dumb so they can push their argument.

YOU NEEDED GEAR FROM A RAID, FILTHY CASUAL!!!! I SHOULD GET THE LOOT I HAVE BEEN FARMING 16H A DAY TO OUTGEAR THIS RAID BUT STILL GIVE ME ANY PIECE, DOESN'T MATTER IF I NEED IT, GIVE IT TO MEE!!
IT'S ABOUT ME,ME,ME MEREEEEREEE REEEEEEE.

[burek]

This makes it WAY harder to split farm, making the top 10 guilds more equal and a better "race" to world first (IMO).

This only hurts the obsessive min/maxers, but the problem with them is they will defend any sort of degenerate gameplay that gives them an edge over an average player, whether it be split raiding, loot funneling, gear/talent swapping between mob packs in a dungeon, or any other obvious flaw and side effect in game's design. Plenty of such shit has been restricted and removed throughout the game's existence, and this is another step in the good direction.

[Enkrypt]

My guess is that this will not turn out as poorly people think it will turn out, much like many of the changes wow has made over the years.

No doubt we'll adapt to it, but the removal of choice is never really a good thing. Simply from my perspective, ML for guilds and PL for pugs seemed like a working system. Granted some had bad experiences, but that can be said for anything.

I just don't know what Blizzard hopes to achieve here. Clearly we're a divided playerbase.

[Aktec]

Better balance for everyone. When will people understand that top guilds ran 4-5 split runs per week which means any other guild that did not do the same was already a month behind in loot in the first week and it just kept piling up. Raids had to be tuned way higher just becaues of blizzard had to take into consideration that split raiding is a thing and they knew that these guilds get months of farming worth of loot in 1-2 weeks so the raid wouldn't last a week.. not that it last much longer but you know what I mean. It had to be fixed end of discussion.

I completely agree, but the solution is really simple, disable ML for the 1st month of the raid tier coming out. Hell do it until cross realm mythic (top 100 guilds of ally/horde) comes out if thats better. But why does what the top 10 guilds i.e. the vast vast minority choose to do, affect all raiders? The removal of choice is really bad for the game.

[Deleted]

The effect on the top10 guilds overgearing is not going to be as big as you'd expect. The biggest factors of gearing was tier sets and trinkets, which are not relevant anymore.

The big issue will be for progressing guilds that take a longer time to clear content. Why? Because by the time you are fighting the end boss/bosses, you will want a setup that will bench a few of your raiders on all the other bosses also since loot they would RNG get would be detrimental to your progression.

At no point ever should a player being in the raid on a farm boss be detrimental to progression.