Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Kokolums]

She was a self-interested loner scavver girl.

Obviously this is wrong because Rey made an effort to protect BB8 when they first met in episode 7. She then turned down a fortune to keep BB8 from falling into the hands of the trading post. She was offered a mountain of goods straight up and said no. Hardly a self-interested loner.

What makes it horrible writing is we don't know WHY Rey turned down the trade. Did she have a secret stash of wealth? Did she feel she had enough to get by and didn't need more? Was she afraid someone would steal it from her and kill her for it? Was she stupid? Was it pure altruism to protect BB8? Its never explained. We don't explore Rey's character at all. She just turns it down and we move on to the next scene. There is no character development.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The Skywalkers are the exception, not the rule. Jedi generally don't have kids; there are strict rules against having a family. That's sort of what caused the whole issue between Anakin and Padme, y'know.

Yet, somehow, there's always new younglings.

Because Force sensitivity is not solely (and perhaps not at all) genetic. About the only example we have of that is the Skywalker line, but the Force is already fucking around with them, since it essentially created Anakin without needing a genetic father at all. The Skywalkers are the exception, not the rule.

Force sensitivity has always just "cropped up" in kids with no family history of Force use. That's how it's always been in Star Wars.

There is likely some genetic link as in the Vader comics it shows Atlest one other Jedi having a force sensitive baby after the purge while in hiding. Vader ends up giving the baby to palps wet nurse for some unknown reason as palp wanted to snatch up all the force sensitive babys who the Jedi never took in.


But ya for the main part it just happens to random kids in the galaxy.

[eschatological]

Obviously this is wrong because Rey made an effort to protect BB8 when they first met in episode 7. She then turned down a fortune to keep BB8 from falling into the hands of the trading post. She was offered a mountain of goods straight up and said no. Hardly a self-interested loner.

What makes it horrible writing is we don't know WHY Rey turned down the trade. Did she have a secret stash of wealth? Did she feel she had enough to get by and didn't need more? Was she afraid someone would steal it from her and kill her for it? Was she stupid? Was it pure altruism to protect BB8? Its never explained. We don't explore Rey's character at all. She just turns it down and we move on to the next scene. There is no character development.

It's an interesting question, and I think a main difference between TFA and TLJ. I think JJ was going for "She's good by nature, but self-interested in behavior because she HAS to be." That's reflected in the whole idea of rebuffing Finn when he tries to take her hand and lead her away, her insecurities on the Maz Kanata planet where she wants to go home and not join Han's crew (she wants to protect herself), and so on, and so forth. Then, near the end of the movie, you see a true rage in her in her last fight with Kylo, where if the ground between them didn't literally split under her feet, it seems like she was about to go full Dark Side on him. So IDK if JJ was trying to set that idea up, or suggesting it was A Momentary Lapse of Reason (great album, btw). And the only real thing that's changed since the beginning of the movie is that Kylo has invaded (possibly imprinted?) on her mind, and it correlates to a quick upswing in her Force abilities. I genuinely thought that that was a theme JJ was going for, that Kylo actually left some sort of "Dark Side impression" on her.

That kind of gets borne out in TLJ. TLJ seems to imply she's kind of a dick. She berates and won't accept Luke's reluctance to train another powerful Force user, even though he has good reason not to, her understanding of the Force is dangerously simplistic and naive, and, in some ways, all about power, and she (like Luke with Vader in the OT) thinks she has the ability to simply turn Kylo good by sheer force of will. She doesn't resist the Dark Side in her vision quest, whereas Luke was ashamed and confused when he cut off Vader's head in his vision, and saw his own face. She spends a whole movie greedily trying to lap up every powerful super combo she can get her hands on, all while having a literal mental connection to Kylo (supposedly put there by Snoke).....

....and then when Kylo extends his hand for her to rule the galaxy with him....she says no, implying she's a good person. That, to me, was the biggest flaw of TLJ. I thought the logical extension of the movie would be for Rey to fall in some way, and become the new villain. I still kind of hope for it in the new movie. Because nothing between her helping BB8 and her refusing Kylo at the end of TLJ really shows she's a good person.

[Kokolums]

They just have Rey do things and there's no context.

[Zeta333]

You're claiming that something which has not been released yet is worse than something else which hasn't finished airing.

Not even skipping the end of a story that has been 42 years in the making (and you're obviously invested in since you are posting here) sounds more retarded than that. And we all know everyone is going to see it anyway, one way or the other.

Keep on brain farting.

Im sorry but what has disney done to show us that this will be good? Ep 7 8 solo were trash. rogue one wasnt but it was a basic ass storyline with zero depth. How about disney not skip 30 years, fill it with next to nothing then produce lackluster trash storylines with bad actors just so they can jack off over the original cast.

They should have stuck with the EU, done the thrawn trilogy and digitally deaged the original cast. And dont try and tell me they couldnt have done that, The Irishman is proof enough that its possible and works and was done by ILM ffs.

[Budong]

Am I allowed to freely admit that TLJ was one of the best Star Wars films I've seen and because of it I am super pumped to see the new movie?

Have you only seen one Star Wars film?

- - - Updated - - -

It's an interesting question, and I think a main difference between TFA and TLJ. I think JJ was going for "She's good by nature, but self-interested in behavior because she HAS to be." That's reflected in the whole idea of rebuffing Finn when he tries to take her hand and lead her away, her insecurities on the Maz Kanata planet where she wants to go home and not join Han's crew (she wants to protect herself), and so on, and so forth. Then, near the end of the movie, you see a true rage in her in her last fight with Kylo, where if the ground between them didn't literally split under her feet, it seems like she was about to go full Dark Side on him. So IDK if JJ was trying to set that idea up, or suggesting it was A Momentary Lapse of Reason (great album, btw). And the only real thing that's changed since the beginning of the movie is that Kylo has invaded (possibly imprinted?) on her mind, and it correlates to a quick upswing in her Force abilities. I genuinely thought that that was a theme JJ was going for, that Kylo actually left some sort of "Dark Side impression" on her.

That kind of gets borne out in TLJ. TLJ seems to imply she's kind of a dick. She berates and won't accept Luke's reluctance to train another powerful Force user, even though he has good reason not to, her understanding of the Force is dangerously simplistic and naive, and, in some ways, all about power, and she (like Luke with Vader in the OT) thinks she has the ability to simply turn Kylo good by sheer force of will. She doesn't resist the Dark Side in her vision quest, whereas Luke was ashamed and confused when he cut off Vader's head in his vision, and saw his own face. She spends a whole movie greedily trying to lap up every powerful super combo she can get her hands on, all while having a literal mental connection to Kylo (supposedly put there by Snoke).....

....and then when Kylo extends his hand for her to rule the galaxy with him....she says no, implying she's a good person. That, to me, was the biggest flaw of TLJ. I thought the logical extension of the movie would be for Rey to fall in some way, and become the new villain. I still kind of hope for it in the new movie. Because nothing between her helping BB8 and her refusing Kylo at the end of TLJ really shows she's a good person.

The mountain of dumb that is TLJ aside, I felt the largest lost opportunity was Rey not falling to the dark side to allow her (or Kylo) a redemptive arc in the finale. Subverting expectations would be Rey becoming the villain and Kylo having to destroy her. If I remember correctly in the novelization of Force Awakens Rey felt the dark side urging her to kill Kylo and the only thing that stopped her was the planet ripping apart.

[Skulltaker]

She's changed as much (arguably more) than Luke did.

She was a self-interested loner scavver girl. She's started to form attachments to people, to get involved in a greater movement (several, both the Jedi and the Resistance, really). She's really not the same as she was when we first saw her. And we've still got a film to go.

But Luke did so over 3 Movies, which span 4 years. Rey undergoes this entire process in... a week?

And Rose is Jar Jar Binks

I feel that is a little unfair to Jar Jar. At least Jar Jar gave us one thing, an interesting South Park Episode.

[exochaft]

....and then when Kylo extends his hand for her to rule the galaxy with him....she says no, implying she's a good person. That, to me, was the biggest flaw of TLJ. I thought the logical extension of the movie would be for Rey to fall in some way, and become the new villain. I still kind of hope for it in the new movie. Because nothing between her helping BB8 and her refusing Kylo at the end of TLJ really shows she's a good person.

I think this was the pinnacle of many people's distaste in the movie exactly because of how jarring that scene is compared to everything that's lead up to that moment. I even remember in the movie theater thinking "Ooo, are they going to team up? Is she going to turn Dark Side? Is Kylo going to start moving towards the Light side in baby steps?" at the point, thinking the movie was going to end there as a great cliffhanger... then the resulting scene ended up in a "Rey good, Kylo evil, let's revert our personalities to one-dimensional versions of themselves for this scene's climax!" Everything leading up to this scene over the two movies had shown Rey embracing a lot of standard Sith traits, especially with how often you see her fighting with rage and always with the look of anger on her face. Ironically enough, Kylo was mostly portrayed as a calm and collected person despite sometimes failing to control his anger (but he at least seems like he tries to control it to some degree), more in line with how a standard Jedi is supposed to act. The setup was there, it just fell flat on its face at that one scene as their demeanor completely swapped for no conceivable reason.

Despite my disdain for TLJ and many aspects of it, most of it wasn't with the setup born with TFA but the bloody execution of everything in TLJ. I had felt like I was watching Space Balls 2 up until the aforementioned scene between Rey and Kylo, and the result of said scene just killed it for me. To aptly borrow a phrase from Space Balls, at that point the movie had gone from suck to blow.

Now, someone had mentioned about Star Wars being a fantasy world where the rule is cool, and that's perfectly fine. However, there is a limit. Adding onto the established rules of a universe is one thing, completely rewriting existing rules and/or just making up crazy things that have no basis outside of "this one scene needs this rule to make sense, and we won't refer to it anyone else" is a completely different thing. I think this response was to the shot of people riding horses, and without context this is really riding on the border of absurd (excuse the pun). If there were no limits to what people would accept in a fantasy world such as Star Wars, you could have them being flying unicorns that shot lasers out of their horns, had Force powers, and used the power of friendship to turn evil into good. You could write in some post de facto lore reason why these creatures exist, why they have and are riding them, and explain all of this away... but would that make it any less absurd and unbelievable? This is one of the reasons why midichlorians caused such an uproar back in the prequels, as while you can craft reason around their existence, it was so far removed from established lore thus far that it was completely jarring from 3 movie's worth of experience.

Anyways, here's hoping JJ can sort all this out, and that Disney takes a page from Marvel and actually ensures their trilogies from here on out have a plan ahead of time.

I feel that is a little unfair to Jar Jar. At least Jar Jar gave us one thing, an interesting South Park Episode.

He also paved the way for Palpatine to dissolve the Senate and the Republic, don't deny him his true glory!

[Stardrift]

Idk why Death Star 3.0 was too much for you guys but Return of the Palpatine isn't.

I've never been uninterested in a main Star Wars movie up until the first trailer for this smoking hot dumpster fire. I was even excited for TLJ, until I heard of some spoilers. Still counting that though.

I really can't wait for Disney to burry the Skywalker name and fucking move on already. The whole sequel trilogy has been milking the nostalgia teat too hard.

[Ophenia]

so what series have you been watching for all of these years because this is literally how the force has always worked.

The problem is that they have shown this with a special focus on this kid. If that was "how it has always worked", there was no point in showing this particular scene. This focus felt like "Rey has given the Gift of the Force upon this child by looking at him".

If that's nothing special, well don't bother showing it.

The mountain of dumb that is TLJ aside, I felt the largest lost opportunity was Rey not falling to the dark side to allow her (or Kylo) a redemptive arc in the finale. Subverting expectations would be Rey becoming the villain and Kylo having to destroy her. If I remember correctly in the novelization of Force Awakens Rey felt the dark side urging her to kill Kylo and the only thing that stopped her was the planet ripping apart.

The problem of Rey NOT turning to the dark side is that we'll start Ep.IX without any threat. Kylo, beyond being dumb as a rock, doesn't seem particularly impressive so far, as he did not stand out against... anyone I guess. Did he kill someone or destroy something, except the mask scene and a few computers in Ep.VII, over the course of two movies ? He didn't have any outstanding feat, while Rey has all the spotlight. I'm pretty sure a 1v1 lightsaber duel between both would end with Rey obliterating him in two moves. If not for Goddess Rey, Kylo would have been killed by his own guards in Ep.VIII.

They failed Rey as a relevant character, but imo the main gripe of this trilogy is that they failed Kylo as a relevant villain too. Snoke was a theoretical threat but they removed him the lamest way possible, now only Kylo and his mood swings is supposed to be the main threat. (spoiler tag for those who haven't seen any trailer and avoiding any discussion about Ep.IX since last year) Palpatine will probably steal this role in Ep.IX but that seems to be out of nowhere - and probably to redeem Kylo (?).

[eschatological]

I still think Kylo is a relevant villain. He seems to be pushed off the edge by Rey's refusal, and is way out of control, unlike Vader. He kind of reminds me of what Heath Ledger's Joker claims to be, a "rabid dog, chasing cars...." except no one has Kylo on a leash any more.

Also, I think they can still pay off Rey if they depict her as brooding, and growing in darkness ever since her failure in the throne room with Kylo. I don't know how many of you were around for the OT, but ESB was very poorly received, until it was paid off 3 years later in RotJ. I'm hoping JJ can somehow land the plane on this one.

The problem is, if Kylo's "chaotic evil" to Vader's "lawful evil," his chaos doesn't seem to be focused enough to be a threat. Maybe he now becomes so focused on Rey in an unhealthy, obsessive-compulsive way that he's a threat to her, but I don't really see how he's a threat to the Resistance, per se. I have a feeling if Rey just......left the Resistance, he'd chase her around the galaxy for no reason because he now hates her for her rejection and because he really sees no purpose in any of it any more.

That's why I'm hoping beyond hope these leaks are fucking nonsense, because the introduction of a new Maguffin that both Kylo and Rey seem to need is....well, nonsense. I particularly don't see how Kylo would suddenly be so focused. The logical narrative for Kylo now, imo, is to tear the whole universe down in a spasm of violence and rage.

As much as I *did* like TLJ, I'm on the record saying that if A) Kylo is redeemed, or B) Rey doesn't have some sort of touch with the Dark Side that someone has to actually stop her during, the setup will be wasted and the trilogy will have failed for me. The ideal thing for me, btw, would be if both Kylo and Rey are Dark Side at the end of the movie, his offer to her in TLJ festers in her until she falls, the theme of "power corrupts" is hammered through, and then the ordinary few (AKA Poe, and especially Finn who is clearly in love with Rey) have to stop her and him against all odds. How that happens can happen in a few ways, but, to me, that's how I'd end it. Sort of like a LotR theme with the hobbits being the saviors instead of the powerful, magical elves, whose Age has passed (much like how the "old way" of the Jedi and Sith has passed).

[babalou1]

-snip-

Movie 1: So someone thats been hurt and abandoned doest trust anyone (refusing to take Finns hand) and wants to go home where she thinks things will eventually get better. She mets someone (Han) that she thinks she might actually be able to trust (and almost a father figure). Gets captured and tortured. and then watches her torturer kill Han. Then she attacks and had the rage to kill the person that just killed han but was stopped. Yeah... totally unrelatable...

Movie 2: She gets sent to find someone that she has been lead to believe can stop the first order and kylo, only to be treated like shit and turned away. So she acts like a dick. Then, shes naive and simplistic, because all shes ever had were stories and then was shown what someone with "power" can do. So yeah, she wants power/to become stronger. She doesnt resist the dark side quest because she has a desire (path to dark side) to know about her parents.. Just because she has dark side "urges" doesnt mean she also isnt a good person


How was any of this bad writing or unrealistic? That sounds like life to me. I like to think im a good person and i try to live my life like that. That doesnt mean Im not a dick at times or that I dont have urges/thoughts. Ive been in fights where i wanted to kill the person i just beat up and if someone hadnt of stopped me, who fucking knows. Ive also been a jack ass to friends that tried to help. I also have urges to find out shit that i probably dont need to know the answer too.

I have also been put in situations that could have gone worse but didnt because I knew I was better than that but rey's path is so totally illogical

[qwerty123456]

She WANTS friends. She didn't HAVE friends, really. That was the point I was making.

You're admitting that she changes over the course of the story, which was my point.

Where did she change over the course of the story? You mean in the 20 seconds before she met bb-8 then befriended him? even the expanded lore has her having scavenger friends until she left them when she realized she didn't need them because she cares about her self interest first and they barely got any food.

[eschatological]

-snip-

Hey, I liked TLJ. I liked the dialogue, which I think was cleverly written, and echoed both within itself, within the trilogy of new sequels, and without the entire 9 movie span.

I'm pointing out the character development issues in hopes that it's a setup for the payoff in episode 9. It doesn't make narrative sense for Kylo to be redeemed. It doesn't make sense for Rey to not fall and do something that seems irredeemable. It seems like, to me, TLJ held back on the ultimate "subversion of expectations" where the heroine we've been following the whole 2 movies, becomes the villain, and settled for the ultimate "expectation" of good resisting evil. And in part, I think that's another part of a clever script...........if in episode 9 they pay it off by recognizing that the whole dichotomy of good and evil needs to pass on. That sets us up for post-Skywalker: flawed characters, like Poe and Finn, will have to be the ones to save the universe against uber powerful "hero" characters like Kylo and Rey. Black and White is over, and the time of the Grey would be the new era, where the Force isn't put into the strictures of inane, restrictive philosophies like the Jedi and the Sith.

[arr0gance]

Have you only seen one Star Wars film?

I've seen them all and was a religious fan growing up. I saw the 20 year re-releases in theaters dozens of times, grew up with the trilogy on VHS tapes, watched the prequels just as many times and my earliest memories are from the LucasArts Star Wars games.

I still liked TLJ more than any of it.

[Ophenia]

and then the ordinary few (AKA Poe, and especially Finn who is clearly in love with Rey) have to stop her and him against all odds.

Finn will be in official relationship with Rose, guaranteed. I even see me vomiting over a wedding scene at the end of this trilogy

I'll forever hate Rose for not only her useless character, but also her useless character preventing another "meh" character from having a great ending. Finn the betrayer who wanted to flee at least twice in two movies would have died a heroic death giving the Resistance a few minutes, without her.
I'll never forgive the writers/directors the plot hole that made both survive after that. Surviving the crash, okay. Surviving being 10 meters away Kylo's army and 2-3km away from the Resistance base while being severely wounded, no thanks.

[Gorsameth]

Luke really wasn't that different in Empire. Not sure why people are blind all the themes Rian Johnson took directly from Empire and RotJ.

Luke was dumb and idealistic. Rey is dumber. They both did the training with the hermit. They both screwed up their training. They both ran off and got hit with a huge dose of reality. All Luke was, again, a farm boy who wanted off the farm then fate slapped him in the face. Rey was, a girl in the desert who wanted to see the galaxy she read/heard about gets slapped in the face by fate.

The Luke people idolize didn't become that until RotJ. We don't know where they are going with Rey. We do know that she was humbled in TLJ and seems to have has a goal now beyond her dreamy fairytale view of the galaxy.

I'm a little hazy on TFA, What huge dose of reality did Rey get hit with?
Luke tried to fight Vader before he was ready and lost the fight and his hand for his hubris.

Rey helps kill Snoke and his guards and then beats Kaylo.

[ravenmoon]

I'm a little hazy on TFA, What huge dose of reality did Rey get hit with?
Luke tried to fight Vader before he was ready and lost the fight and his hand for his hubris.

Rey helps kill Snoke and his guards and then beats Kaylo.

The new star wars films just don't do it for me, not like the original 3 nor the prequels or even teh cartoons. I don't get the same sense of wonder, excietement, destiny, hope or tragey.

I get lots of action a clever script with a good plot but lots of confusing decisions.. i wouldn't have midned if I could have the same sense of wonder. Maybe it's because I expected something different, something more. I think about it and I say to myself, well, is it because Rey is female? (i think, I have nothing against female characters or leads, sespecially loved Burnham in str trek discovery and a lot of films - i do seem to dislike females written and portrayed identically to men, it's basically a man's role in other words where they've stuck a girl in, and made her do things guys do as if that's supposed to be a "strong" woman, and it just ends like a butch woman, which isn't the same thing, and sometimes it seems it's for no other reason than to please pressure groups or "end the patriarchy" which means, diminish men at all costs (which is crazy to me, but I know some female feminists who live for that) - but Rey isn't really that at all, so maybe it's not that.

Then I look at the fate of Luke, and i think - very disappointing, the whole freedom and victory of the original 3 results in this.. you must either hate hope, destiny or males (or all of those) to do this, we see the major male characters Luke and Hans killed off, yet Leia (who I always wanted to blossom in the force alongisde her borther) is the only one to survive as if to say screw you guys, the force is now for chicks - which seemed an extremely callous and insenstive move to make if only to stamp your own seal on your characters. Given what lucas approved in the EU, I dno't think he would have approved that story outline, it just makes 1 through 6 meaningless and pointless.

Maybe it's the future I don't like I thought next. Let me examine, there is no "cool" next generation with the kids of Luke/Leia/Hans - Luke's wife, the galaxy is in even more tumult or chaos, so rather than restoration to an even better state than the prequels with a creative and new type of threat, instead we are back to deserts and wastelands, , crappy looking run down and broken every thing, nothing to wow and wonder you.

Then the force action, lightsabers, ship fights.. they look rubbish - anakin of the clone wars and Star wars 3, was so much cooler than any of those fights, even though the sfx for the space fights were quite well done in the new movies. I remeber the feeling of awe seeing MAce windu step into the ring with a bunch of Jedi at the end of episode 2, the cool upgrade of the sword fights in episode 1, new force abilities, the new lightsabers, and this was taken to a new level of cool in the Clone wars, especially the cartoon network first lot - if you want cool force abilities. you need something at that level - you need things that areawesturck and wonderful and make sense for the characters. Rey as a noob doing what she did at the end of TLJ, just seems out of place, rubbish, even her fighting ren successfully at the end of TFA - i mean it makes no sense given how they set up the jedi and needing training and development etc.


So the moveis fel flat, unisnpiring, almost like they are re-writing luke with Rey, but pretty much doing the same thing. It doesn't seem original or exciting, or wonder filled, it looks like a remake of the first 3, but less appealing in nearly every sense. Sure you get to see more star wars, but I expected, way cooler, way more exciting, way more wonder, and way more class.

At the point of RoS, I'm just thinking lets end the horror show, and good rriddance. major let down from the start. i might watch it because ig et a free cinema pass, but I'm just not excited about it, and it seems that those who have seen the current cut versions are not at all.

But i know a few women who like sci-fi, and they love the new star wars, , not all of them saw it cinema, but they'd watch it on tv, not one of them went more than once, not one of them buy star wars toys, games or have str wars posters of Rey, not one of them are interested in going to star wars conventions and none of them geek over star wars games onor follow or have delved into the franchise because of the new movies. But they really like them, and if they are able to go to the cinema when it comes out, they might, but its Christmas and lots of other stuff to do, they don't mind catching it on dvd release, but most likely on tv release whenever that happens.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The problem is that they have shown this with a special focus on this kid. If that was "how it has always worked", there was no point in showing this particular scene. This focus felt like "Rey has given the Gift of the Force upon this child by looking at him".

If that's nothing special, well don't bother showing it.

It just sounds like you haven’t been paying attention as Rey never saw/met this kid and we had the whole of the prequels with super young kids training as jedi in an order where your not allowed attachments.

It’s not the movies fault if you don’t pay attention.

[Endus]

But Luke did so over 3 Movies, which span 4 years. Rey undergoes this entire process in... a week?

Wait, I'm confused.

Is your issue that Rey didn't evolve as a character, or that she evolved too quickly?

We also don't have firm timelines for the films; we have the year they're set in, and the time for some periods (the ship chase in TLJ starts with 18 hours of fuel, and ends with 6, so takes 12 hours), but presuming that there are no time skips doesn't really make sense.

By the same comparison, if we go to ESB, we've got Han navigating through an asteroid field to Cloud City concurrently with Luke training on Dagobah. So either Han's navigating that field for days or even weeks, or Luke's training with Yoda was as short as Rey's was with Luke, roughly.

Or they're jumping around between timelines and the events aren't concurrent as they're seen, but timed for narrative purposes, and you've got no real grounds for claiming Rey wasn't on Ach-to for weeks to begin with.

It's also a bit silly, since a lot of films involve character growth over the span of hours, not days or weeks.