Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Endus]

Except he wasn't even a Dooku equivalent, he was a chump, a decoy. Waste of space and character for the sake of a twist that blew nobody away and contributed nothing else to the story. Dooku was the main villain of Episode II and Palpatine's right hand in orchestrating The Clone Wars. Snoke was a boogeyman.

And? Snoke was the leader of the First Order and the architect of the death of the New Republic. Claiming he didn't accomplish great, terrible things is just . . . wrong.

Complaining he was defeated because his arrogance let him be blindsided by his apprentice is, well, something Star Wars does a lot. The finale of RotJ, particularly.

It's one thing to struggle with the dark side. Even in his darkest, lowest moment (end of Empire Strikes Back after finding out his father was a murderer, Han was maybe dead), Luke remained hopeful by Leia and his remaining friends' sides. The Last Jedi Luke was a man in the twilight of his years stripped of all hope, joy and kindness. Even Yoda in Dagobah in more depressing times was still hopeful for the future and could instill hope and wonder in Luke as well. Luke was unpleasant. He might as well have been wearing a bath robe and shaking his fist at Rey.

The end of ESB is not Luke's lowest moment, nor when he's closest to falling to the Dark Side. That's the final fight with him and Vader. Where he almost loses it, twice, trying to kill his father, because he loses himself to his anger for a moment. You really can't miss this, because the Emperor calls him out for it both times.

Jedi took in children who were force sensitive. Even if we say the kid holding up the broom was force sensitive, it doesn't jive with the film's narrative. Becoming a Jedi is akin to the training and discipline required to be a samurai. A force sensitive kid with no training is at best someone who can occasionally move things with their mind.

That's literally all we saw of the kid in question. Also, most of what you're talking about here you're making up. There's no indication you need tons of training to pick up a broom with the Force. Indeed, we're shown time and again that you don't. That doesn't mean the canon is wrong, it means your assumptions are.

Luke established the Jedi were dead, and should remain so. What significance does a force sensitive kid have other than to either try to turn the Jedi into something it is fundamentally not (super heroes or wizards if you just BELIEVE?) Luke's gone. The Jedi way is a relic. Unless Rey is a fool, she's not going to try to re-create The Jedi Order, and risk repeating what happened to Luke. You can't have it both ways. You can't establish that Luke is perfectly in-character when he's saying the Jedi were flawed, then end the movie showing a force sensitive kid, for what? It's a red herring.

Why would you think that the Force is created by being Jedi? They're just one particular religious order, with one particular interpretation of what the Force is about. They (and the Sith) are not the only such interpretations or paths.

They show the kid Force Pulling the broom to remind us that the Force is still everywhere, in everything, and all this Jedi v. Sith stuff is fundamentally irrelevant. The Force won't stop existing if the Jedi and Sith die. It won't change, at all. It will still be just as present, and people will still be learning to use it.

And yet Dooku had a place. He was Yoda's apprentice, turned to the dark side. Brushed aside by Sidious to be replaced by his new and better version in Anakin. We saw him orchestrate things. We saw him beat Obiwan and Anakin and then lose in the rematch because Anakin has become so much stronger. He is challenge to overcome for the 'hero'.

Snoke is Dooku if Episode 2 didn't exist. A guy that shows up for 10 seconds and dies like a chump with a backstory that hints at being rich and worth exploring (who is he, where did he come from, who taught him, did he form the First Order, did he take them over?) but gets closed off without any ceremony.

Heck even without Episode 2 Dooku is a more compelling character because his death sets up Palapatines evilness (ignoring ep 4-6 as a known backstory you have the captured chancellor of the Republic telling a young Jedi to kill his defenceless prisoner)
It serves a purpose. Kaylo is still the same stupid angsty teenager with delusions of grandure before and after killing Snoke.

Similar stuff exists for Snoke. You're refusing to consider it because it doesn't line up with your hate for the films.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Jedi took in children who were force sensitive. Even if we say the kid holding up the broom was force sensitive, it doesn't jive with the film's narrative. Becoming a Jedi is akin to the training and discipline required to be a samurai. A force sensitive kid with no training is at best someone who can occasionally move things with their mind. Luke established the Jedi were dead, and should remain so. What significance does a force sensitive kid have other than to either try to turn the Jedi into something it is fundamentally not (super heroes or wizards if you just BELIEVE?) Luke's gone. The Jedi way is a relic. Unless Rey is a fool, she's not going to try to re-create The Jedi Order, and risk repeating what happened to Luke. You can't have it both ways. You can't establish that Luke is perfectly in-character when he's saying the Jedi were flawed, then end the movie showing a force sensitive kid, for what? It's a red herring.

The force isn’t limited to the Jedi Luke explains this in the movie. Using the force is just like any other skill it can come naturally to some while other have to train at it it’s always been like that. The Jedi were a religious cult but they were not the only force users and the way they taught the force wasn’t the only path.

The Jedi were also always suppose to be wizards.

[Nefarious Tea]

Rey's new lightsaber
https://i.imgur.com/0PSI3r7.jpg


https://twitter.com/eeisenberg/statu...21741214883841

Not a bad look to be honest. I think they pulled it right out of SWTOR, so I’m on board with at least using assets from the old republic games even if it’s not acknowledged.

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way too much and disney wants to make new fans. EU was great for people like me because i'm way into it, but they want to appeal to my wife and daughters too. can't be mad at them.


frankly, i don't feel like explaining over 40 years of expanded stuff either lol. it blows peoples minds when i tell them that the Sith and Mandalorians started as an actual race of aliens

Yeah but how fucking cool would it be to see some Old Republic era material with a Sith pureblood?

[Gorsameth]

Similar stuff exists for Snoke. You're refusing to consider it because it doesn't line up with your hate for the films.

Please enlighten me oh great one.

[Endus]

Please enlighten me oh great one.

Leader of the First Order, raising the fleets and the troops, building Starkiller Base, destroying the New Republic, the architect of basically everything that went into TFA and TLJ.

Saying he's just a guy who shows up and dies is flatly wrong.

[Nefarious Tea]

As pointed out above, Luke explicitly says he's only seen power like Rey's "once before"; with Kylo Ren. He had plenty of experience with his father's power, so clearly that level is below Kylo's and Rey's.

You might not like that Anakin isn't King Shit in terms of Force strength in the canon, but that's the canonical truth.

To be fair, Luke also only had experience with the post Juyo-form blender that Obi Wan put him through on Mustafar. A Vader who had all his limbs and didn’t need a pressure suit to survive probably would wipe the floor with Kylo Ren or Rey

[Kyphael]

And? Snoke was the leader of the First Order and the architect of the death of the New Republic. Claiming he didn't accomplish great, terrible things is just . . . wrong.

Complaining he was defeated because his arrogance let him be blindsided by his apprentice is, well, something Star Wars does a lot. The finale of RotJ, particularly.

All accomplished through exposition. His character is otherwise meaningless. We don't see him actually do anything in-story. He's just sitting there running his mouth and then gets cut in half and that's that, the character does nothing in the story.

The end of ESB is not Luke's lowest moment, nor when he's closest to falling to the Dark Side. That's the final fight with him and Vader. Where he almost loses it, twice, trying to kill his father, because he loses himself to his anger for a moment. You really can't miss this, because the Emperor calls him out for it both times.

I saw this coming and was prepared. The end of Empire Strikes Back is emotionally the lowest for Luke. Everything that's happened to him, and his training is still unfinished, The Resistance is on the ropes, and he's uncertain if they can even win in the future, undoubtedly. When he came before Vader and The Emperor in Return of the Jedi, he was a confident Jedi. Did he struggle with the dark side? Of course. Anyone would with the devil poking and prodding them while fighting with yourself and your father trying to redeem him against all odds. His back was against the wall, and he had doubts, but he wasn't the emotional wreck he was at the end of Empire.

That's literally all we saw of the kid in question. Also, most of what you're talking about here you're making up. There's no indication you need tons of training to pick up a broom with the Force. Indeed, we're shown time and again that you don't. That doesn't mean the canon is wrong, it means your assumptions are.

You don't need tons of training to pick up a broom with The Force, but you need tons of training to become a Jedi. What, you think Disney is going to create a new kind of force user for future Star Wars movies not called Jedi? You really have that much faith in Disney's creative capacities? Or is it more of a case of having written a sloppy, disjointed screenplay with no cohesive vision? This is where I choose the latter, and you believe the former.

Why would you think that the Force is created by being Jedi? They're just one particular religious order, with one particular interpretation of what the Force is about. They (and the Sith) are not the only such interpretations or paths.

I never implied Jedi created The Force. I know The Force exists regardless of Jedi. It's like believing in God, whether you're Christian or not. But here lies the meat of the message, for better or worse. If there are no religions, does the object of worship really exist? The Jedi might not have created The Force, but they're damn sure The Force's most devout followers. Without The Jedi, The Force is a superstition, high ranking officials in A New Hope allude to as much. When Vader executed Order 66, they fundamentally crippled The Force, Obi-Wan says as much. Without anyone to worship, spread word, and show devotion, The Force is a superstition to most of the galaxy. Any kid that accidentally uses it will probably be regarded as a freak or a miracle depending on who he's surrounded by. Thereby, what significance to The Last Jedi's narrative, does the kid with the broom scene have? If Disney creates a new group of force users that don't use light sabers, I'll concede I was wrong. But I have a feeling you'll be waiting years for that, if it ever comes at all.

They show the kid Force Pulling the broom to remind us that the Force is still everywhere, in everything, and all this Jedi v. Sith stuff is fundamentally irrelevant. The Force won't stop existing if the Jedi and Sith die. It won't change, at all. It will still be just as present, and people will still be learning to use it.

It still exists, but without this so-called "cult", IE: The Jedi advocating its existence, it's a fantasy to most of the galaxy who would rather blast someone than have to learn how to use a light saber.

Similar stuff exists for Snoke. You're refusing to consider it because it doesn't line up with your hate for the films.

You're really playing devil's advocate here. Snoke is a nobody. Everything he did is spoon fed to us through exposition, he presents no threat, and his character has no payoff.

@Daemos daemonium Jedi were conceptualized as more like Samurai, according to Lucas himself. Maybe a mix of wizards and samurai, sure, but even being a wizard requires training. Harry Potter had to go to Hogwarts. Children had to be trained to become Jedi. Outside of Disney turning Jedi into something different, the scenes serves no purpose to the film it exists in.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

@Daemos daemonium Jedi were conceptualized as more like Samurai, according to Lucas himself. Maybe a mix of wizards and samurai, sure, but even being a wizard requires training. Harry Potter had to go to Hogwarts. Children had to be trained to become Jedi. Outside of Disney turning Jedi into something different, the scenes serves no purpose to the film it exists in.

You are aware Harry Potter starts with Harry using magic without training or knowing that magic was real right?

You have also already stated you don’t know any Eu lore why would you say pre Disney the Jedi were something different when you don’t know most of the Jedi lore? Hint it was the exact same Before Disney.

[Kyphael]

You are aware Harry Potter starts with Harry using magic without training or knowing that magic was real right?

You have also already stated you don’t know any Eu lore why would you say pre Disney the Jedi were something different when you don’t know most of the Jedi lore? Hint it was the exact same Before Disney.

Yes, but then he can't even fix his own glasses, can he? He had potential and was born gifted. Wouldn't have meant a damn thing in his life if Hagrid never took him to Hogwarts anymore than if Qui Gon-Jinn never took Anakin in to train.

The Jedi are still the same under Disney, exactly the same, or they were, through exposition before Ben Solo turned. My point is, Disney doesn't know what to do with the Jedi in their own damn stories. They write Luke as a self-righteous old fart who says Jedi must die, and he's supposedly totally "in character" with who he was when we last saw him, but then we see a hopeful young lad using The Force.

Which one is it? You can't spend the whole movie having Luke tell me Jedi were arrogant and need to die out, then show me the future is bright because this kid might become a Jedi. Unless the Jedi stay dead and a completely new order of Force worshipers arise to replace the Jedi, it's completely meaningless.

[Endus]

Yes, but then he can't even fix his own glasses, can he? He had potential and was born gifted. Wouldn't have meant a damn thing in his life if Hagrid never took him to Hogwarts anymore than if Qui Gon-Jinn never took Anakin in to train.

The Jedi are still the same under Disney, exactly the same, or they were, through exposition before Ben Solo turned. My point is, Disney doesn't know what to do with the Jedi in their own damn stories. They write Luke as a self-righteous old fart who says Jedi must die, and he's supposedly totally "in character" with who he was when we last saw him, but then we see a hopeful young lad using The Force.

Which one is it? You can't spend the whole movie having Luke tell me Jedi were arrogant and need to die out, then show me the future is bright because this kid might become a Jedi. Unless the Jedi stay dead and a completely new order of Force worshipers arise to replace the Jedi, it's completely meaningless.

Why on Earth do you think that kid is going to become an old-style Jedi (and I add "old-style" to pre-emptively allow for a "Jedi 2.0" in the future canon)?

There's nothing that suggests that, anywhere.

The Jedi are just a particularly cult. They aren't the Force. The Force doesn't need Jedi, at all. And the lack of Jedi won't mean there's any less Force in the universe, or any fewer adepts making use of the Force.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You don't need tons of training to pick up a broom with The Force, but you need tons of training to become a Jedi. What, you think Disney is going to create a new kind of force user for future Star Wars movies not called Jedi? You really have that much faith in Disney's creative capacities? Or is it more of a case of having written a sloppy, disjointed screenplay with no cohesive vision? This is where I choose the latter, and you believe the former.

Disney has already made two different groups of force users that are different from the Jedi. One are tribes people who use the force and call it stone power who are much more focused on telekinesis used with force sensitive rocks (which isn’t something Disney made up) the other are some bug things that use the force though mind control.

Lucas films also made a another group before Disney with the night sisters.

These aren’t likely to be a main focus in any movie but they exist.

[Gorsameth]

Leader of the First Order, raising the fleets and the troops, building Starkiller Base, destroying the New Republic, the architect of basically everything that went into TFA and TLJ.

Saying he's just a guy who shows up and dies is flatly wrong.

I'd give that role to Hux before i give it Snoke. We see Dooku lead the separatists, we never see Snoke lead anything.
And giving Snoke credit for Starkiller Base isn't even likely to be correct since we now know it was being worked on in between episode 3 and 4 from the new Jedi game. A time where Sidious was in firm control of the galaxy. Which again falls into the massive blackhole of who Snoke is and where he came from.

[Kyphael]

Why on Earth do you think that kid is going to become an old-style Jedi (and I add "old-style" to pre-emptively allow for a "Jedi 2.0" in the future canon)?

There's nothing that suggests that, anywhere.

The Jedi are just a particularly cult. They aren't the Force. The Force doesn't need Jedi, at all. And the lack of Jedi won't mean there's any less Force in the universe, or any fewer adepts making use of the Force.

You missed the whole point. A subject of worship is a fantasy or a superstition without its devotees to spread word and awareness. I'm not saying The Force is some kind of God demanding worship, but surely, with The Jedi around, way more people are aware of The Force than not. They're its biggest promoters if you will. Without the Jedi, The Force might as well not exist. It's an allegory for God, or a higher power.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yes, but then he can't even fix his own glasses, can he? He had potential and was born gifted. Wouldn't have meant a damn thing in his life if Hagrid never took him to Hogwarts anymore than if Qui Gon-Jinn never took Anakin in to train.

The Jedi are still the same under Disney, exactly the same, or they were, through exposition before Ben Solo turned. My point is, Disney doesn't know what to do with the Jedi in their own damn stories. They write Luke as a self-righteous old fart who says Jedi must die, and he's supposedly totally "in character" with who he was when we last saw him, but then we see a hopeful young lad using The Force.

Which one is it? You can't spend the whole movie having Luke tell me Jedi were arrogant and need to die out, then show me the future is bright because this kid might become a Jedi. Unless the Jedi stay dead and a completely new order of Force worshipers arise to replace the Jedi, it's completely meaningless.

It doesn’t matter if he can’t fix his glasses Potter can speak snake and make glass disappear/teleport people. Hog worts or not he would have been a wizard.

As to the Jedi you absolutely can have it both ways. Luke can see all the short coming of the cult and Rey and start it over with new teaching to avoid those short comings. Post revenge the Jedi cult is drastically changed as Luke is the only one left and he’s not a true Jedi as the order and most of its teaching were gone. Rey can keep the name and take it even further, though I hope she doesn’t.

[Kyphael]

Disney has already made two different groups of force users that are different from the Jedi. One are tribes people who use the force and call it stone power who are much more focused on telekinesis used with force sensitive rocks (which isn’t something Disney made up) the other are some bug things that use the force though mind control.

Lucas films also made a another group before Disney with the night sisters.

These aren’t likely to be a main focus in any movie but they exist.

Unless they become a focal point of movies going forward, what's the point? Disney is in this to make money, if it's not in the movies, and they just continue to promote the Jedi name because it's mainstream, but at the same time, their stories don't make sense, then we're at the point you're just defending bad movies with disjointed narratives.

[Endus]

I'd give that role to Hux before i give it Snoke.

Hux works for Snoke. He's following orders, not setting policy.

We see Dooku lead the separatists, we never see Snoke lead anything.

By that argument, we never see the Emperor lead anything, in the OT.

And giving Snoke credit for Starkiller Base isn't even likely to be correct since we now know it was being worked on in between episode 3 and 4 from the new Jedi game. A time where Sidious was in firm control of the galaxy. Which again falls into the massive blackhole of who Snoke is and where he came from.

It's 30 years since Sidious died, and when we see Ilum in Fallen Order, it's nowhere close to being Starkiller Base. Sidious may have started that construction, but it was Snoke that finished it.

And the "black hole" of Snoke's origin is irrelevant. We canonically know more about Snoke after two films than we learned about The Emperor after three, in the OT. You're applying a double standard.

[Kyphael]

It doesn’t matter if he can’t fix his glasses Potter can speak snake and make glass disappear/teleport people. Hog worts or not he would have been a wizard.

As to the Jedi you absolutely can have it both ways. Luke can see all the short coming of the cult and Rey and start it over with new teaching to avoid those short comings. Post revenge the Jedi cult is drastically changed as Luke is the only one left and he’s not a true Jedi as the order and most of its teaching were gone. Rey can keep the name and take it even further, though I hope she doesn’t.

If Rey can succeed in making a New NEW Jedi Order without all the flaws of the old, (something Luke did successfully in the EU mind you, I do know that much) that doesn't fail like Luke's did, that would be the icing on the cake in Disney butchering Luke's character.

Therefore, I totally believe it will happen now.

[Florena]

I'd love to see the movies explore more force users that don't just fall into the Jedi/Sith molds. (Not sure if Kylo/Snoke technically are Sith or not but at least from what we see in the movies they might a well be even if they lack that specific label from their behavior.)

[Endus]

Unless they become a focal point of movies going forward, what's the point? Disney is in this to make money, if it's not in the movies, and they just continue to promote the Jedi name because it's mainstream, but at the same time, their stories don't make sense, then we're at the point you're just defending bad movies with disjointed narratives.

Skip the timeline forward a century or two, to remove all direct ties to anything.

The Jedi are legends. Their ruins dot the galaxy, and contain treasures for those with enough power in the Force to unlock them. You'd still see hear Jedi, you'd still see them as Force Ghosts defending some sites from plunder, people who still tell stories about the Jedi, etc. That legacy would still be strongly felt, regardless of what story you're telling of a young Force user trying to come to terms with their power, and how they can use it in a galaxy shattered by war/invasion/whatever.

Just as one of a pretty broad range of possible routes to go, that would honor the legacy but let them move forward with something new.

And I can't see the time jump being an issue; people loved the Old Republic stuff even though that's thousands of years before the Skywalker era.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Unless they become a focal point of movies going forward, what's the point? Disney is in this to make money, if it's not in the movies, and they just continue to promote the Jedi name because it's mainstream, but at the same time, their stories don't make sense, then we're at the point you're just defending bad movies with disjointed narratives.

Have you never heard of the idea of world building? Hell we had a night sister in fallen order.

As to the Jedi name it’s just that a name. The Jedi order died in episode 3 luke a Jedi in name only as he didn’t have most of the original teaching Rey making a new order and reusing the name is the exact same as Luke being a Jedi.

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If Rey can succeed in making a New NEW Jedi Order without all the flaws of the old, (something Luke did successfully in the EU mind you, I do know that much) that doesn't fail like Luke's did, that would be the icing on the cake in Disney butchering Luke's character.

Therefore, I totally believe it will happen now.

I really wouldn’t call Luke’s Eu Jedi order successful there were still sith from it and even his own blood line went dark or got hooked on space crack. Luke’s order was just as much of a fuck up as the others.