Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Skroe]

People don't like TLJ and the Cantobite scene because they are shit. Has nothing to do with some kind of dark side of the galaxy bs.

People didn't like TLJ because between Luke retreating to a hermit life and being bitter about the disaster of his so-called life, the unceremonious death of the Resistance leadership and Snoke, the fakeout with Rey's then-true family lineage it sent a message... "the things you care about in star wars don't actually matter".

Which is exactly correct. And it was a bold thing for the Saga to say. If the First Order killed everybody - Rey, Leia and everybody... if Luke died for nothing and nobody cared, most of the galaxy would just shrug and carry on.

The bravest thing that Star Wars ever did was say, pretty clearly, that the galaxy is a dysfuctional place that for all its technology, Jedi, Droids and aliens, is basically operating on the level of Iraq or Afghanistan in the real world.

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I didn't think people were pissed at Canto Bight because of the way it showed the Universe I only ever heard how it was basically pointless.

But yeah they really need to make some more films far removed from "basic star wars" either in distance or time.

Personally after seeing the Smash and Grab Pixar short I'd kind of like to see something like a couple droids on some backwater shithole (so far removed away from the normal universe that no one has ever even heard of the empires or republics) escaping their captivity and finding a better life. And Disney always sells a ton of the new droid merch so unless they try to nostalgia it up I don't see how it wouldn't make a profit.

I mean, the problem with Canto Bight is the recurring problem with the entire Star Wars saga in filmmaking terms. There was weak writing all abound. The motiviation for going there was stupid. The trip there was missing some lines that tied together the larger point being made by what they were seeing. Benicio Del Toro's character was not a good fit.

But I mean, if we're talking about that, then we might as well go down the entire saga and discuss how it's a monumental writing mess, with the Sequel Trilogy as a whole being by far the worst offender.

But then again, this is JJ Abrams, and he was never going to be up to the task.

[Nerovar]

People didn't like TLJ because between Luke retreating to a hermit life and being bitter about the disaster of his so-called life, the unceremonious death of the Resistance leadership and Snoke, the fakeout with Rey's then-true family lineage it sent a message... "the things you care about in star wars don't actually matter".

Which is exactly correct. And it was a bold thing for the Saga to say. If the First Order killed everybody - Rey, Leia and everybody... if Luke died for nothing and nobody cared, most of the galaxy would just shrug and carry on.

What exactly do you mean when you say "it was a bold thing to for the Saga to say/do"? What does bold mean in this context?

[eschatological]

IDK if English is your first language, but in this context, "bold" means "courageous" or "brave."

[Skroe]

What exactly do you mean when you say "it was a bold thing to for the Saga to say/do"? What does bold mean in this context?

To tell people to their faces that the thing they think is important, in fact, is meaningless in the bigger picture. The entire drama of the Skywalker family, the fate of the characters, the empire versus rebels... who rules the galaxy.... the essence of Star Wars and why it is so beloved... also meaningless to most people actually living in said fictional galaxy, who will be largely fine regardless if it is Empire or Republic, Sith or Jedi.

Core and beloved characters like Leia were fighting for the life, and the rest of the galaxy was gambling and drinking space-tequilas, and couldn't be bothered to send help when called for.

It's a bold thing to challenge fans and an audience if what they think is important actually is. But that's probably too much to ask for a Star Wars Saga film, which operates on the level of basically a Saturday Morning Cartoon. It's better left for places like the Mandalorian, where Mando dismisses the New Republic as a joke. All the travails of the main characters in the Original Trilogy... for what people five years later consider a joke.


That's subversive as fuck about Star Wars, and also a cool thing to do.

[Nerovar]

To tell people to their faces that the thing they think is important, in fact, is meaningless in the bigger picture. The entire drama of the Skywalker family, the fate of the characters, the empire versus rebels... who rules the galaxy.... the essence of Star Wars and why it is so beloved... also meaningless to most people actually living in said fictional galaxy, who will be largely fine regardless if it is Empire or Republic, Sith or Jedi.

Core and beloved characters like Leia were fighting for the life, and the rest of the galaxy was gambling and drinking space-tequilas, and couldn't be bothered to send help when called for.

It's a bold thing to challenge fans and an audience if what they think is important actually is. But that's probably too much to ask for a Star Wars Saga film, which operates on the level of basically a Saturday Morning Cartoon. It's better left for places like the Mandalorian, where Mando dismisses the New Republic as a joke. All the travails of the main characters in the Original Trilogy... for what people five years later consider a joke.


That's subversive as fuck about Star Wars, and also a cool thing to do.

But that's just not true. Without individual characters like Anakin/Vader, the Republic and the Jedi wouldn't have fallen and the Empire (which played a large part in people's lives) wouldn't have existed. Without characters like Obi-Wan, Luke, Leia and Han Solo the Empire wouldn't have been defeated (though that didn't exactly last long). Those things have a tremendous impact on everyone in Star Wars.

I also don't really understand what's bold about putting gritty "realism" in a setting in an attempt to create some demystified version of it when the entire Star Wars universe is just pure mythos. These kinds of tone switches make sense when you look at an evolving genre like e.g. Western movies but within an established universe it just falls flat on its face. There are enough Sci-Fi universes that already fill this niche. Subverting expectations just for the sake of it is neither bold nor clever. It's just tone-deaf (which is why so many people disliked the movie).

[Skroe]

But that's just not true. Without individual characters like Anakin/Vader, the Republic and the Jedi wouldn't have fallen and the Empire (which played a large part in people's lives) wouldn't have existed. Without characters like Obi-Wan, Luke, Leia and Han Solo the Empire wouldn't have been defeated (though that didn't exactly last long). Those things have a tremendous impact on everyone in Star Wars.

It had an impact on Coruscant, Alderaan and whatever few planets the Empire had more than a token presence on (usually for a purpose, like mining Kyber crystals). But in most places, the Empire was far, far away and the overwhelming majority of people in the galaxy never came anywhere close to a Storm Trooper or the Empire's brutality. The Empire was not everywhere and could barely control where it was. That was, after all, the entire *point* of the original Death Star. To build a super weapon that could be anywhere and destroy planets to keep the worlds of the empire in line. Destroying that was meaningful. But the Empire without the Death Star was spending considerable resources and sending it's defacto #2 (Vader) chasing a few thousand Rebels around the galaxy.

Simply, the Empire was not nearly enough places to really matter. And as we saw in a lot of the Clone Wars series, neither was the Republic.

I also don't really understand what's bold about putting gritty "realism" in a setting in an attempt to create some demystified version of it when the entire Star Wars universe is just pure mythos. These kinds of tone switches make sense when you look at an evolving genre like e.g. Western movies but within an established universe it just falls flat on its face. There are enough Sci-Fi universes that already fill this niche. Subverting expectations just for the sake of it is neither bold nor clever. It's just tone-deaf (which is why so many people disliked the movie).

Because what's the point if conventions of the franchise aren't challenged? Just to make a serialized entry where the end point and the starting point are the same? Again, basically a live action Saturday morning cartoon? If we're doing that, when why are we even discussing Star Wars as if there is meaning to it, when it's first purpose is, was and will the same as a Saturday Morning Cartoon: to sell toys to the 6-12 year old crowd.

I see it as a binary choice: either Star Wars tries and do interesting thing in its set up and transform it and change it and experiment, or it just orbits the same comfortable safe zone forever, and we just recognize all we're really watching is a 2 hour advertisement for action figures, video games and other merch.

It's not about being "gritty" either. It's about disruption. How about this for a new trilogy pitch: "It's 5000 years later, and from millennia of slavery the droids have risen up to conquer their masters. Now the Machine Empire rules most of the galaxy except for a few planets on the Outer Rim, where Force Wielders who utilize both the Light and Dark Side of the force work together to defend life from the tyranny of the machines."


So here we have a 5000 year time jump, so an entirely new dynamic. We have called the Saga's treatment of droids what it is, which is 25,000 year old slavery. We have burned down the legacy of the entire Saga by saying the Machines killed pretty much everybody and conquered the galaxy. We have Light and Dark side Force users on the same side. But there is still some familiar aspects. You have an evil empire and a heroic under dog. You have the force and jedi. You have a faceless, merciless enemy.

But how would it go over with fans if it were to say, you know, the successors of R2D2 and 3PO burned down 25,000 years of galactic civilization so nothing ultimately mattered long term. Or that post-Jedi/post-Sith Force users are allies. Or in creating a new super-enemy that isn't enmeshed in the traditional force mythology? Star Wars already tried this years ago with the Yuuzhan Vong and it went over quite poorly. A lot of folks didn't even love the Abeloth stuff, thinking it too Lovecraftian.

So really, where we at with Star Wars now that the Saga is wrapped? We going to try new things, or just content ourselves with more 2 hour Hasbro Action Figure commercials?

[Skulltaker]

It's not about being "gritty" either. It's about disruption. How about this for a new trilogy pitch: "It's 5000 years later, and from millennia of slavery the droids have risen up to conquer their masters. Now the Machine Empire rules most of the galaxy except for a few planets on the Outer Rim, where Force Wielders who utilize both the Light and Dark Side of the force work together to defend life from the tyranny of the machines."


So here we have a 5000 year time jump, so an entirely new dynamic. We have called the Saga's treatment of droids what it is, which is 25,000 year old slavery. We have burned down the legacy of the entire Saga by saying the Machines killed pretty much everybody and conquered the galaxy. We have Light and Dark side Force users on the same side. But there is still some familiar aspects. You have an evil empire and a heroic under dog. You have the force and jedi. You have a faceless, merciless enemy.

But how would it go over with fans if it were to say, you know, the successors of R2D2 and 3PO burned down 25,000 years of galactic civilization so nothing ultimately mattered long term. Or that post-Jedi/post-Sith Force users are allies. Or in creating a new super-enemy that isn't enmeshed in the traditional force mythology? Star Wars already tried this years ago with the Yuuzhan Vong and it went over quite poorly. A lot of folks didn't even love the Abeloth stuff, thinking it too Lovecraftian.

So really, where we at with Star Wars now that the Saga is wrapped? We going to try new things, or just content ourselves with more 2 hour Hasbro Action Figure commercials?

It's a good idea to challenge your audiences. But you should also consider how and where to implement new ideas and concepts. If Rian Johnson had taken his ideas and just started out a new trilogy outside of the same storyline I'm sure both he and the audiences would have been a lot happier. Instead, he got to continue an upbeat classic shlocky traditional Star Wars story that followed the old formula to the letter (and even a little to much, imho), and turned it all around 180°, but still had to end it like the previous movie ended, so that someone else could pick up and make a traditional star wars movie again.

Ease your audiences into new stuff, don't hit them over the head with it. Rogue One did a lot of things different from traditional Star Wars, so did the Clone Wars and Rebels Series. Both also showed us a lot of the seedy underbelly of the Star Wars Galaxy, with victims of the war, consequences, civilian life and how they percieved the Empire, Seperatists, Republic etc.

Think about it this way. Picture a sheltered kid, who spent his entire life in a gated community, on a private school. He/She never drank, has basically no romantic experience. He/she has led a quiet life. Now, they enter college, and their co-eds decide to take him/her to a little partying. Now, you could have a few beers, dance, show them what's out there to explore, maybe he/she will even find a guy or girl to make out with. It could be fun, and if they don't enjoy it and prefer their sheltered life, let them have that.

Or you get them drunk to the point where they pass out. Like, starting out with a few shots of Jägermeister. Instead of smoking a weed, shoot up heroin. I'm not going to go into the analogy of sexual encounters, that's going to get me infracted, but you're smart, I think you can figure out what an out-of-hand sexual experience would probably be like.

In one scenario, you challenge someone about their world and habits. In the other, you break them down. And chances are you're going to do some irreparable damage.

If Disney wants to take Star Wars in a new direction, go for it. Star Wars horror stories? Sure. Rom-Com? Eh.. probably not for me, but go ahead. But if you make the decision to continue where the old movies stopped, keep that general narrative going. You want to redesign the Galaxy? Aye. One can try that. You can always go back if it doesn't work. But please, don't do it in the middle of an ongoing story.

[StillMcfuu]

People didn't like TLJ because between Luke retreating to a hermit life and being bitter about the disaster of his so-called life, the unceremonious death of the Resistance leadership and Snoke, the fakeout with Rey's then-true family lineage it sent a message... "the things you care about in star wars don't actually matter".

Which is exactly correct. And it was a bold thing for the Saga to say. If the First Order killed everybody - Rey, Leia and everybody... if Luke died for nothing and nobody cared, most of the galaxy would just shrug and carry on.

The bravest thing that Star Wars ever did was say, pretty clearly, that the galaxy is a dysfuctional place that for all its technology, Jedi, Droids and aliens, is basically operating on the level of Iraq or Afghanistan in the real world.

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I mean, the problem with Canto Bight is the recurring problem with the entire Star Wars saga in filmmaking terms. There was weak writing all abound. The motiviation for going there was stupid. The trip there was missing some lines that tied together the larger point being made by what they were seeing. Benicio Del Toro's character was not a good fit.

But I mean, if we're talking about that, then we might as well go down the entire saga and discuss how it's a monumental writing mess, with the Sequel Trilogy as a whole being by far the worst offender.

But then again, this is JJ Abrams, and he was never going to be up to the task.

You are stating in your own reply the real issue with the movie and why people didn't like them.
It's not the things that are happening, it's the zero exposition for why they are happening.
If they fleshed out what happened with Luke and Kylo, Luke being a hermit wouldn't bother anyone (or at least not as many people).

This is the issue with Disney Wars, TFA is a fine movie, not many people have a problem with it, outside of the people that will have an issue with everything.

It's TLJ that takes what was built and throws it away and provides no exposition, so things are just happening. It's trash. People didn't like the Canto Bight scene not because of the "political implications", it's as you said, the whole showing Canto Bight is completely pointless, it provided no exposition, it provided nothing to the story, the world, nothing. Contrast this with a R1 scene that's meant for the same purpose, to show that everything isn't great in the universe, when Cassian kills his fellow spy. That serves the same purpose and builds not only the character, but the state of the Rebellion at the time, desperation. And the Cassian scene lasts 30 seconds, while we were stuck with horse shit Canto Bight for what, 10-15 minutes. Except Canto Bight failed to convey any meaning.

TLJ is highschool level film making and script writing. That's what people are angry about. It's the same as most every other movie that has come out and gets trashed, like GB16. It's a bad movie with very few saving graces, and instead of people recognizing it's multitude of issues, they picked sides, created strawmen and argued nonsense.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

WOW. People are very angry at this movie's ending I am so shocked!!

/s

[Syegfryed]

seeing the leaks i think my perfect scenario is if Kylo killed Rey then kill himself

i still don't know why its called Rise of the skywalker, if its Kylo is the only one alive

This is pure fan fic. Luke was absolutely stronger then Vader in the original canon he becomes the equivalent of a force god who can destroy whole ships and control black holes where Vader was beaten by a nobody like Starkiller.

wait, he was? where? i always saw luke just a normal one

[eschatological]

Think about it this way. Picture a sheltered kid, who spent his entire life in a gated community, on a private school. He/She never drank, has basically no romantic experience. He/she has led a quiet life. Now, they enter college, and their co-eds decide to take him/her to a little partying. Now, you could have a few beers, dance, show them what's out there to explore, maybe he/she will even find a guy or girl to make out with. It could be fun, and if they don't enjoy it and prefer their sheltered life, let them have that.

Or you get them drunk to the point where they pass out. Like, starting out with a few shots of Jägermeister. Instead of smoking a weed, shoot up heroin. I'm not going to go into the analogy of sexual encounters, that's going to get me infracted, but you're smart, I think you can figure out what an out-of-hand sexual experience would probably be like.

This exact scenario led to Buddhism, where a rich prince left the gates of the palace for the first time, was shocked and horrified by the poverty of the normal citizen, and sat under a lotus tree and came up with one of the greatest human philosophies to address such pain.

Sometimes a shock to the system is a great way to challenge a person. Your analogy falls a little short because there is physical harm imposed to someone with no tolerance for alcohol/drugs, whereas Star Wars (and Buddhism) are merely mental/emotional/spiritual shocks, per se.

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TLJ is highschool level film making and script writing. That's what people are angry about. It's the same as most every other movie that has come out and gets trashed, like GB16. It's a bad movie with very few saving graces, and instead of people recognizing it's multitude of issues, they picked sides, created strawmen and argued nonsense.

No, every Star Wars before it was high school level film making. I take that back, the prequels were grade school level film making. Rian Johnson has proven he can make films, his movie Knives Out, which just came out this month (or was it last?) is probably one of the best films of the year. But he doesn't spoon feed things to his audience. He expects them to be able to reflect on his themes and ingest them, and reason them out. The "problem" is that he's an auteur, and a real filmmaker, and no one was expecting that in a Star Wars film.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

wait, he was? where? i always saw luke just a normal one

He doesn’t become an actual god (though Mabye he does I haven’t gone though all of the Eu) but he’s equivalent power wise with him doing all kinds of insane things.

[Shadowferal]

i still don't know why its called Rise of the skywalker, if its Kylo is the only one alive

Missed a couple of leaks...

[Fayolynn]

WOW. People are very angry at this movie's ending I am so shocked!!

/s

I can't tell if this is a comment on the quality of the ending or a comment on fan opinions.

[StillMcfuu]

No, every Star Wars before it was high school level film making. I take that back, the prequels were grade school level film making. Rian Johnson has proven he can make films, his movie Knives Out, which just came out this month (or was it last?) is probably one of the best films of the year. But he doesn't spoon feed things to his audience. He expects them to be able to reflect on his themes and ingest them, and reason them out. The "problem" is that he's an auteur, and a real filmmaker, and no one was expecting that in a Star Wars film.

I'm not saying Rian Johnson is a bad director, just saying he had a bad film, you don't need to be defensive about it... or as I said start building up fake points to attack.

There are no hidden meanings or themes going on in TLJ. There is no deeper meaning to take away from the film, it was just bad. It was a bad script, and bad film making. This isn't to say the cinematography was bad or anything, so don't start naming shots.

That bolded line... just because RJ has been capable of telling good stories before, doesn't mean that he probably shouldn't have been in control of this property as he lost control of the movie. We can again look at R1, as it was also directed by someone who probably didn't have the exact chops for what was going on. But ultimately the film pulls out a vision and an overall theme, it accomplishes it's goal. It also succeded in being visually Starwars while being something else, he was able to make a very non-starwars movie into a starwars movie.

If you want to start putting forth scenes, and name why they are wholly misunderstood, or name hidden meaning and themes, please do. I'd love to have that conversation. If you are just going to be defensive about the film, and not objective, then don't bother.

PS Knives Out is definitely one of the best of the year.

[derpkitteh]

He doesn’t become an actual god (though Mabye he does I haven’t gone though all of the Eu) but he’s equivalent power wise with him doing all kinds of insane things.

that's not in canon, either.

that was always EU stuff.

[Kokolums]

No, every Star Wars before it was high school level film making. I take that back, the prequels were grade school level film making. Rian Johnson has proven he can make films, his movie Knives Out, which just came out this month (or was it last?) is probably one of the best films of the year. But he doesn't spoon feed things to his audience. He expects them to be able to reflect on his themes and ingest them, and reason them out. The "problem" is that he's an auteur, and a real filmmaker, and no one was expecting that in a Star Wars film.

No. I've seen Rian Johnson's films and like them. But TLJ was garbage. The characters sucked. The new characters he added sucked. No-one cares about any of these characters. They aren't interesting. Which is odd because he has created interesting characters in the past. But it is what it is.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

that's not in canon, either.

that was always EU stuff.

that's what i said.

[derpkitteh]

that's what i said.

you said in the original canon, which was just the three movies and then the prequels.

EU's always been separate unless lucas liked something and took it.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

you said in the original canon, which was just the three movies and then the prequels.

EU's always been separate unless lucas liked something and took it.

fair i guess, i count the lucas films canon(eu) as the original canon but i can see the argument for just the movies.