Metzen Interview about Fandom and Toxicity

[Deleted]

That is probably why we hear little from Blizzard is probably for that very reason, the utter toxicity of some parts of the community..

Good point, I can remember a time where they were often interacting with the player base. I think the level of interaction was reduced mostly in the Cataclysm days, when people where quite angry.

[Granyala]

You have Alliance players on this forum who openly indulge in their rape and torture fantasies about Sylvanas

o_O

Okay... I haven't encountered that. Eeew Necrohilia... definitely not my fetish.
I'd rather hug a certain lightborne Draenei.

[Relapses]

It's a good example for what righteousness can do to otherwise good people, but I highly doubt that Blizzard intended to unleash this hatemob upon their world.

Obviously they didn't. I think that's really the gist of what Metzen is criticizing: Crafting a story is one thing; internalizing that story to the point where you feel personally invested in its outcome is legitimately insane.

Grow the fuck up, people.

[Deleted]

I realise his not really at blizzard anymore BUT when blizzard realise because it matters adverts showing the behaviour his against it kind of highlights it's not just a fandom issue

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o_O

Okay... I haven't encountered that. Eeew Necrohilia... definitely not my fetish.
I'd rather hug a certain lightborne Draenei.

T'paartos or you're wrong

[Dracullus]

I think it's just a part of larger problem (or "problem"). Majority of people in Europe/North America just don't have perspective and didn't experience any any SERIOUS bad stuff in their lives. For them when some game or movie is SLIGHTLY worse then expected (or even better, when fictional story doesn't go way they imagined) it's END OF THE WORLD ('member Last Jedi?).

And it's not better outside "nerd" culture. Our current problems are things like sex identity or political correctness. In rest of the world it's finding something to eat, avoiding fatal desease or hiding from psychopaths waging war on each other. I'm really with Metzen, but I'm embarassed for our current society as a whole. And worst thing is I know I can't really do anything with that.

[Kokolums]

lol - that's so true. BUT, it's also a sign that Blizz writing has hit folks in an emotional state, which means they are doing something right The whole point of art is to generate an emotional response. And the forums are gobbling it all up. Way more than anything before.

thats a flawed argument. There's plenty of examples of artists making controversial decisions that turned off most of their fanbase. You can for example point to countless TV shows that made controversial cast changes or format changes that were not well received and audiences left in droves. You cant sit there and defend it by saying "well the TV show got cancelled but they made the right decision because it hit people in an emotional state".

Its just nonsense.

Its like saying "sure, Happy Days wrote a controversial scene where the Fonz went out into the ocean and actually jumped over a shark, and the scene upset a lot of people and ratings plummeted and the show got cancelled, but it was the correct decision because it got people emotional". No it isn't.

[bonewax]

For anybody looking for a tl,dw: Metzen is embarrassed by nerd culture and its inability to differentiate between reality and fiction.

Can't say I blame him. Just look at the Teldrassill thread. Grown ass men calling each other out like children because they... play Horde. It's pathetic.

How convenient to says its just people that play horde who act like little kids. The hypocrisy in your comment is rife with ignorance

[Pull My Finger]

At the same time, we should drop the "even a guy like Chris Metzen" outlook. He's actually created Warcraft as a broken mirror into real life problems. Like, you should feel a certain way about content/story- and then reflect on how you feel and why you feel that way.. Which will truly lead to you growing up more if you're open minded enough.

So much of WoW is far 'deeper' than people expect it to be. But I'll say this-- Sleeping people DON'T MAKE GAMES. Not at Blizzard.

These aren't your "typical" people. Chris Metzen in particular is a SMART guy. He's a deep thinker, and he wants to help humanity.

No doubt. What I meant is that Metzen was clearly always a guy who geeked out on comic books, sci-fi shows and fantasy games and as such most certainly has a higher tolerance and understanding for the fact that nerds can get quite escapist and a bit overboard about stuff at times.

"Normal" people who don't "get it" have always laughed at geeks and belittled them. But when a guy like Metzen says that nerd culture is getting embarassing, that adds a lot more perspective on the matter. When the guy who perpetuated the motto "embrace your inner geek" tells you that you're off - you should check your head. That's what I was trying to say.

At the end of the day, it's not even about nerds or not-nerds or whatever. As you said - slouches don't build things like Blizzard does. Metzen is a geeky guy, but he's intelligent, capable, and he's a guy who's passion shows itself in tireless creativity and his interest in sharing his genuine enthusiasm. This is in stark contrast to the indignation, bile and belligerence that idiots on the internet try to coat as "being passionate".

It just shows that good people do good things, while assholes are being just that. Regardless of matter. That's what "toxic" gamers are. Simply assholes.

[Dalheim]

How convenient to says its just people that play horde who act like little kids. The hypocrisy in your comment is rife with ignorance

That's not what he meant. He meant that people bitch on players WHO play Horde.

[Granyala]

Obviously they didn't. I think that's really the gist of what Metzen is criticizing: Crafting a story is one thing; internalizing that story to the point where you feel personally invested in its outcome is legitimately insane.

But I AM personally invested. I play a character in a world, I roleplay, I create her story, flesh it out adorn it with my feelings and hers.
In part she becomes an extension of myself in that virtual world. So when she gets hurt, I get hurt. When she feels joy, I feel joy.

This is not just a movie I watch, this is a character that I played for over a decade now. I don't think it is insane to be invested at that level. There have been authors incapable of eventually killing off story characters because they grew too attached to them.

However, I still must separate ingame world from real life artists. I must not let loose the rage my character feels, the rage, that in part, I feel upon the artists that created that world. Not unfiltered or unmitigated anyway.
Displaying some rage is actually wanted by the artists, because they WANT to engage me. Nothing is worse to an artist than an indifferent audience they failed to move.

[bonewax]

That's not what he meant. He meant that people bitch on players WHO play Horde.

ah my mistake then

[Queen of Hamsters]

What, you mean it's toxic to call people literal Nazis because they play the Horde??
It's toxic to send death threats to writers because you don't understand what they've written??

Oh no!

[Granyala]

T'paartos or you're wrong

My priestess would hug him. I'm rather enamoured with Enaara.

[Venziir]

Does he say anything about if he'll return to voice Thrall in BfA?

[metzger84]

The real money auction house sucked, though. A blatant cash grab. Otherwise common sense comments.

[The Stormbringer]

His anxiety issues are mostly cleared up? That's really nice to hear, the dude deserves to be able to relax and enjoy life. I wonder if he'll come out of retirement in a few years, or consider part-time work in the near future?

Sounds like he makes some very solid points. A lot of people give criticism that isn't remotely constructive, and keeping in mind empathy, and how processes work, is clearly difficult or impossible for them (or maybe they just don't care). The 'anonymous mob mentality' is an issue on the internet as a whole, I feel.

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Blizzard don't explain what toxicity is they even consider stuff like if people find you annoying its the same thing as harassment

fucking define stuff before you go around calling it bad

its ok to disagree and be negative it should not earn you the label toxic or be counted as harassment

This isn't 'Blizzard', this is Chris Metzen, who no longer works with Blizzard.

[Relapses]

Metzen doesn't have much room to call out others. He let wow suffer while grabbing anyone with a heartbeat to work on project titan. Why do you think WoD was so pieced together. This is the same guy that didn't want to go to blizzcon because he KNEW people were gonna call out his ability to manage projects (he claimed it was panic attacks. First time he tasted failure and like a typical Californian he cried). He let his cash cow suffer while working on something that didn't go anywhere. They might've lucked out salvaging overhype from it. But kalgan is doing his best to ruin it by declaring war on memes.

At the end of the day, Metzen a human being. The merit of his opinion on something isn't any more or less valid just because he worked on the game in the past. I really think that's the underlying point of what he's getting at in this podcast -- the community often places blame on the authors, creators and developers for things that aren't even their fault. WoW is a cumulative effort of hundreds of people. It's up to the players to understand there's a line between reality and fiction.

How convenient to says its just people that play horde who act like little kids. The hypocrisy in your comment is rife with ignorance

...what? Please re-read my post and understand the context before quoting me to say something I didn't.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Expecting the mindless haters to reflect is moot though. Just look at the ones in this very thread, confusing criticism and toxicity to somehow go hand-in-hand, or thinking WoW is a shitty product since years yet still sticking around just for the sake of hating.

No wonder the world is a shitty place, with such retards running rampant and even reproducing.

[anon5123]

"Toxic" is such an overused buzzword these days.

"wahh I don't like what you're saying! TOXIC!!!"
"wahh you're criticizing and complaining! TOXIC!!!"
"wahh I disagree with you! TOXIC!!!"

[Relapses]

But I AM personally invested. I play a character in a world, I roleplay, I create her story, flesh it out adorn it with my feelings and hers.
In part she becomes an extension of myself in that virtual world. So when she gets hurt, I get hurt. When she feels joy, I feel joy.

This is not just a movie I watch, this is a character that I played for over a decade now. I don't think it is insane to be invested at that level. There have been authors incapable of eventually killing off story characters because they grew too attached to them.

However, I still must separate ingame world from real life artists. I must not let loose the rage my character feels, the rage, that in part, I feel upon the artists that created that world. Not unfiltered or unmitigated anyway.
Displaying some rage is actually wanted by the artists, because they WANT to engage me. Nothing is worse to an artist than an indifferent audience they failed to move.

I should have clarified: I can understand some level of personal investment but we start getting into crazy people territory when you're using that personal investment to make judgment calls about other people for the narrative actions of a story which is playing out without any direct input from the players themselves.