Updated models and the persistent tradition of not using them

[Fahrad Wagner]

It pisses me off more than it should.
I am leveling my Mag'har trough the Ghostlands and reached the Quel'Dorei village with the High Elf Ghosts. And they use the old OLD High Elf Model.

Ugly Old High Elf

This piece of shit.
The horribly mangled white Night Elf models. We're now at the second upgraded High/Blood Elf models yet these guys still look like they're from 2007...
No, that's actually an insult to 2007 Video game graphics. These look like N64 shit. FUCK.

Waow. Okay, the issue might actually be even worse than I first thought... This is just absurd.

[Unholyground]

There are sooooo many places without updated models it hurts a bit.

[rohoz]

Waow. Okay, the issue might actually be even worse than I first thought... This is just absurd.

it's not, really. It's pre-cataclysm areas, those models are separate files (unlike things like crabs/spiders which got a change to *all* mobs with the model)
Fel orcs from hellfire likely won't get a new model either, because honestly only 0.0001% (if that much) of the population cares.

Literally better to allocate resources elsewhere.

[vertigo12]

This is what new raptor from WoD looks like for those wondering btw:



Those are the ones still in Arathi:

They are different raptor specie. The one in Arathi is endemic to the place.

[CasualFilth]

Wait, wait, wait, Fahrad plays Alliance? I thought you played Horde??

On point: I think those old flag models are tied to the on-click mechanics that 'build'/'spawn' things. Idk if updating them could mess with that.

[Hell-Nicø]

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one noticing and bothered by that.

[smokii]

Hi everyone!

So something has been bothering me for a while.. Have you noticed how Blizzard keeps using old models in-game when there are already new HD versions existing and used somewhere else? And I'm not just talking about mobs here, I'm talking about assets as well.

Let me develop with an example here. Doing the 7th legion quests during BfA, one thing bugged me out everytime I went on the Alliance's ship: the Alliance banner you have to click on to get your troops. Why would they use an outdated Vanilla model, when they made a brand new one and is used in some places?

If you want something very similar but even sillier, look at this:



Why would you use this outdated banner when there is a brand new one just next to it?

Don't get me wrong, I love the game and the new expansion, and I'm very aware of all the efforts from the devs to update old models when they're relevant again (quilboars are a great example). What I don't understand is why Blizzard wouldn't use new models when they already exist?

Another example that gets under my skin are the raptors in updated Arathi. They all share the old model, except one: the rare raptor which drops a mount, Skullripper. Now why would you put out of date models in a zone you specifically redesigned? I mean, I understand bulky trolls using an old model: there isn't an updated model for them just yet. But I don't understand it for the raptors. I could go on and on with this such as the crocodiles in the jail's sewers in northern Kul Tiras, the hippogriff you ride in Zandalar for an Alliance quest, which as an old model when there is a brand new HD one existing, etc.

It doesn't seem like a major issue, but I just think it breaks the immersion and encountering outdated assets in places as beautiful and detailed as Kul Tiras and Zandalar, it's kind of a shame really.

What do you guys think? Do you notice those old assets/models? Do they bug you out or do you not care one bit?

Also if anyone has a rational explanation for this, I'd be really interested!

/wave - gamedev here

this is due to the way in which game assets are made and optimised.

the standing flag, is one "prefab" game object, or asset. made up of 3 different textures and 2 different components. the stonebase+flagstaff are one mesh + 2 textures, the flag itself is a "cloth" mesh (that has physics capabilities for cloth movement built in) as well as a texture. the stone+wood part of the flagpole are baked together and the flag texture is baked seperately and would be easier to update to a different flag. but both components make up the whole, which is the prefab that can then be copy/pasted around the gameworld.

whereas the building + flag, is made out of multiple game objects, "baked" together, into one cohesive larger mesh. the smaller components that make up the building structure as a whole are no longer editable - as they have been essentially stitched together to optimise drawing at runtime - (drawing 1 game object instead of 20 game objects massively improves refresh rate) - so the smaller game object meshes get combined into larger game objects that reduce the amount of draw calls required on the graphics card to generate the scene.

so in this case, the flag, as part of the building prefab has basically been copy-pasted into the new zone to save on dev time. you could pass the building to an artist to update the texture on the prefab, but this would then retroactively change the flag on all other instances of that prefab within the game files. (so in the zones where that flag is relevant, it would be updated unnaturely). or you could re-create the building, from all the smaller game objects that were used before, but with the new flag. or you could just create a brand new similar looking building with the new flag. or just use the old building.

so as a game dev, you would have to either do a good 4+ hours of artwork to just update a flag texture, 8+ hours creating an entirely new building, or settle for using an older flag and do it in 5 mins.

using the old building prefab comes with a few extra benefits though, as there is likely a whole bunch of scripts attached to it that govern things like NPC's, flight points, innkeepers, rest zones, cooking fires, stablemasters - all the stuff you would expect to find at a questhub. that would otherwise need to be added to the new game objects. it's generally quicker and easier to use a prefab and remove the unwanted functionality from it, than to create a new prefab that does pretty much exactly the same thing, all because part of the model is slightly out of date.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Wait, wait, wait, Fahrad plays Alliance? I thought you played Horde??

On point: I think those old flag models are tied to the on-click mechanics that 'build'/'spawn' things. Idk if updating them could mess with that.

I play both, but my main character is Alliance.

They are different raptor specie. The one in Arathi is endemic to the place.

I would take this as a point, but they've updated so many old models that were "endemic" as well. I see where you're going with this though, even if I don't think it can be used as an excuse for what is -in my humble and very personal opinion- cheap and lazy.

/wave - gamedev here

this is due to the way in which game assets are made and optimised.

the standing flag, is one "prefab" game object, or asset. made up of 3 different textures and 2 different components. the stonebase+flagstaff are one mesh + 2 textures, the flag itself is a "cloth" mesh (that has physics capabilities for cloth movement built in) as well as a texture. the stone+wood part of the flagpole are baked together and the flag texture is baked seperately and would be easier to update to a different flag. but both components make up the whole, which is the prefab that can then be copy/pasted around the gameworld.

whereas the building + flag, is made out of multiple game objects, "baked" together, into one cohesive larger mesh. the smaller components that make up the building structure as a whole are no longer editable - as they have been essentially stitched together to optimise drawing at runtime - (drawing 1 game object instead of 20 game objects massively improves refresh rate) - so the smaller game object meshes get combined into larger game objects that reduce the amount of draw calls required on the graphics card to generate the scene.

so in this case, the flag, as part of the building prefab has basically been copy-pasted into the new zone to save on dev time. you could pass the building to an artist to update the texture on the prefab, but this would then retroactively change the flag on all other instances of that prefab within the game files. (so in the zones where that flag is relevant, it would be updated unnaturely). or you could re-create the building, from all the smaller game objects that were used before, but with the new flag. or you could just create a brand new similar looking building with the new flag. or just use the old building.

so as a game dev, you would have to either do a good 4+ hours of artwork to just update a flag texture, 8+ hours creating an entirely new building, or settle for using an older flag and do it in 5 mins.

using the old building prefab comes with a few extra benefits though, as there is likely a whole bunch of scripts attached to it that govern things like NPC's, flight points, innkeepers, rest zones, cooking fires, stablemasters - all the stuff you would expect to find at a questhub. that would otherwise need to be added to the new game objects. it's generally quicker and easier to use a prefab and remove the unwanted functionality from it, than to create a new prefab that does pretty much exactly the same thing, all because part of the model is slightly out of date.

Thanks for the explanation mate, I appreciate it! Although I still have one question: why then not use the same Alliance flag that is in Arathi Basin (the clickable one) which is the exact updated version of this? I am absolutely not an expert on this, but surely they can take it and change the script/code/whatever and it wouldn't be that much work, right? If I'm completely deluded on this, please tell, as I'm really interested to understand how this whole thing works.

Maybe this is about the way I work and see things, I'm a perfectionnist. I can spend five more hours on details, because to me details are what makes something great. And obviously many devs in WoW's team care about details, because there are so many little tidbits of cool stuff here and there. I just wish they would push this habit to the fullest with models and assets as well.

[Deleted]

Now is the time to facelift the original/BC areas with updated textures and models due to Classic being released.

Possible WoW - Remastered?

[Rasula Elfbiter]

I'm actually surprised with the opposite. Blizz made a large number of Zandalari themed assets for 5.2 and I expected at least some to appear in Zuldazar. Maybe using those lightning-charged Zandalari trolls for some mobs or NPCs, not to mention an abundance of totems, props, etc. Instead they used only the new ones despite MoP assets still looking decent totay and could provide some variety.
Music, too. ToT and Isle of Giants had a very distinct soundtrack, but instead half of the time we're stuck with "Zandalar forevah" tune, even though they did reuse the mogu music.
Heck, they even specifically mentioned the ship we blow up in the end of the Alliance campaign is one from Pandaria. But it uses a new model with a completely different design!

It's all especially ironic considering Blizz never updated Zandalari models from older expansions (save form Thunder King tomb mobs in 5.0 which did get 5.2 models... but Mogu'shan Vaults ones didn't). So we have whopping FOUR different types of Zandalari trolls:

- Vanilla and WotLK player troll model with pink skin;
- Cata and early MoP forest troll models with yellow skin;
- MoP 5.2 uniquely animated straightwalking trolls;
- BfA player models.

All in one game at the same time.
Oh and they did bother updating Zul'Gururb dire trolls, but not the Zandalari there.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Now is the time to facelift the original/BC areas with updated textures and models due to Classic being released.

Possible WoW - Remastered?

My hope -and again this involves me and only me- is that the WoW Classic they want to launch will use updated textures and models, that will be put into the regular game as well. I know I'm probably one of the few hoping for this, and that many players want to play the "real" Classic, with all the old models and such, but that's how I'd like things to be. It could be a great opportunity to give a good lifting to the old world without going on the Cataclysm 2.0 road.

I'm actually surprised with the opposite. Blizz made a large number of Zandalari themed assets for 5.2 and I expected at least some to appear in Zuldazar. Maybe using those lightning-charged Zandalari trolls for some mobs or NPCs, not to mention an abundance of totems, props, etc. Instead they used only the new ones despite MoP assets still looking decent totay and could provide some variety.
Music, too. ToT and Isle of Giants had a very distinct soundtrack, but instead half of the time we're stuck with "Zandalar forevah" tune, even though they did reuse the mogu music.
Heck, they even specifically mentioned the ship we blow up in the end of the Alliance campaign is one from Pandaria. But it uses a new model with a completely different design!

It's all especially ironic considering Blizz never updated Zandalari models from older expansions (save form Thunder King tomb mobs in 5.0 which did get 5.2 models... but Mogu'shan Vaults ones didn't). So we have whopping FOUR different types of Zandalari trolls:

- Vanilla and WotLK player troll model with pink skin;
- Cata and early MoP forest troll models with yellow skin;
- MoP 5.2 uniquely animated straightwalking trolls;
- BfA player models.

All in one game at the same time.
Oh and they did bother updating Zul'Gururb dire trolls, but not the Zandalari there.

I think they didn't use the 5.2 models again because of their clear Thunder King aesthetic. I think they're really trying to dissociate the Zandalaris from BfA from those Zandalaris in 5.2 so the players don't assimilate these former ennemies (who where really just Zul's followers) to the Empire now joining the Horde.

But it's very true what you said, and I actually did not even remember the Vanilla models with pink skin! Good old days, handing sigils to that NPC off Stranglethorn's coast haha!

[Highlord Hanibuhl]

It's good to have the opinion of a professional on this! Hopefully they used some new trees in Arathi, to be honest I was almost expecting them to use the old ones from nearby regions... I just don't get it, especially when new models already exist, it makes no sense.

That, plus knowing they can swap out models easily in their engine. Some models like the wordtrees or trees/shrubs around special places are specially designed or placed, but A LOT of assets can easily be swapped out. I just don't get why they don't do this.

Also... whats the deal with the Ogres? I thought the new WOD-models was how they looked with updated models.. not AU-version-fied... Right now we got 2 version of ogres..

[Fahrad Wagner]

That, plus knowing they can swap out models easily in their engine. Some models like the wordtrees or trees/shrubs around special places are specially designed or placed, but A LOT of assets can easily be swapped out. I just don't get why they don't do this.

Also... whats the deal with the Ogres? I thought the new WOD-models was how they looked with updated models.. not AU-version-fied... Right now we got 2 version of ogres..

I thought the same as you! It's just confusing man...

[Deleted]

How about the new upright Orc model that ive only seen 1 npc use. The old hunched makes sense for Peons but not people like Grommash Hellscream etc

[smokii]

Thanks for the explanation mate, I appreciate it! Although I still have one question: why then not use the same Alliance flag that is in Arathi Basin (the clickable one) which is the exact updated version of this? I am absolutely not an expert on this, but surely they can take it and change the script/code/whatever and it wouldn't be that much work, right? If I'm completely deluded on this, please tell, as I'm really interested to understand how this whole thing works.

Maybe this is about the way I work and see things, I'm a perfectionnist. I can spend five more hours on details, because to me details are what makes something great. And obviously many devs in WoW's team care about details, because there are so many little tidbits of cool stuff here and there. I just wish they would push this habit to the fullest with models and assets as well.

i dont know for sure, there's a few possible explanations - but i'd say it was probably due to when the work was done, when the assets were made and who actually placed them there. the arathi basin world art was possibly created a while after the main bulk of the expansion world art was done.

as you generally create the landscape first, then add the world art details, then add the npc's and other quest stuff on top, it could've been done a while before the decision to make arathi a warfront was finalised. you also have separate teams working on separate content, so could've been a different set of people workin on it who were potentially unaware that the other flag art was available. miscommunication between teams and such. other times it can literally just be tired eyes not seeing a difference (the scale you are working at can blur the finer details sometimes).

honestly, if you make a ticket about it, you may find they'll go in and update it - depends on who did the work in the first place and the amount of pride they take in it. but it may also apply as i explained previously, it could be an 8 hour pain in the ass to update it, or a 20 minute job for an artist. all depends what the workload is for the people that would need to fix it and the priority they give it in terms of bugs that require fixing.


i would hope that blizz have got a solid workflow in place that would allow them to update art on models without causing too much issue elsewhere, but with a game the size of wow there's other things to consider, like file bloat and the actual size of the installation.

[Valnoressa]

Stuff like this is littered throughout the game. One that sticks out in my mind is how Garrosh in Silverpine/Stonetalon was not retroactively updated to use his MoP model.
It's not a big deal but I honestly don't think they pay enough attention to updating the old world stuff so that it's a little more visually pleasing to new players coming in now. For example I'd have the old tree models that look like flat planes updated to use models from WoD onward. It would do so much for the visuals of old zones.

Same for replacing the buildings of the old world with the ones they made for WoD. Imagine how fancy goldshire or lakeshire would look with those.

It was great that all those new models added in BFA applied to a few dozen models in the old world (hyenas, ghouls, monkeys etc) but there's still so many that look stand out awful.

As for the flag thing, I'm just going to go ahead and say someone just threw down a flag and didn't care too much about how old/dated looking the doodad looked.

[vertigo12]

I play both, but my main character is Alliance.



I would take this as a point, but they've updated so many old models that were "endemic" as well. I see where you're going with this though, even if I don't think it can be used as an excuse for what is -in my humble and very personal opinion- cheap and lazy.



Thanks for the explanation mate, I appreciate it! Although I still have one question: why then not use the same Alliance flag that is in Arathi Basin (the clickable one) which is the exact updated version of this? I am absolutely not an expert on this, but surely they can take it and change the script/code/whatever and it wouldn't be that much work, right? If I'm completely deluded on this, please tell, as I'm really interested to understand how this whole thing works.

Maybe this is about the way I work and see things, I'm a perfectionnist. I can spend five more hours on details, because to me details are what makes something great. And obviously many devs in WoW's team care about details, because there are so many little tidbits of cool stuff here and there. I just wish they would push this habit to the fullest with models and assets as well.

Well that reason comes from me. I don't know what Blizzard will make up as an "excuse" to escape playerbase critical eyes and all over the place standards, too many people they try to appease and please.

The only possible reason why they would probably keep it that way is to reduce bandwidth and fps drop. Less polygon, less loading time in a highly updated heavily scripted zone where a lot of things are happening. NPC pathing, resource gathering and update to UI, intense graphic and animations due to constant Battle so there won't be much stress happening on the instance. And like what others say there is that classic vibe to it that never goes old or out of style. Variety is the spice of life.

[Alanar]

They mostly use them for visual variety I guess. The flag also while older, it does stand out that it has a different reason then the background material.

Bs, just highlight the flag like all ugly swords in legion and sure we will notice it enough.

- - - Updated - - -

it's not, really. It's pre-cataclysm areas, those models are separate files (unlike things like crabs/spiders which got a change to *all* mobs with the model)
Fel orcs from hellfire likely won't get a new model either, because honestly only 0.0001% (if that much) of the population cares.

Literally better to allocate resources elsewhere.

Probably more then you know..

- - - Updated - - -

They are different raptor specie. The one in Arathi is endemic to the place.

Nope, they look like updated raptors.. its not like we have 100 different raptor species who all like different. Even their horns look exactly the same.

- - - Updated - - -

I keeps puzzling me why they do this. They updated the ogre models in Arathi Highlands for the revamp, but still use the vanilla model for the two merchants in Dazar'alor's harbor area.

I actually saw some small raptor running in grps.. they also ised the old model.. this was in beta tho not sure, but hopefully they are updated.. its realy minor but still.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

They probably focus more on what they consider more important things then the outdated stuff that's been pointed out.

[patrik9321]

Blizzard almost always confuses me - the biggest problems I have with the game persist till this day. Even though I was around for every xpac besides Warlords of Draenor, I have no desire to come back because blizzard keeps stripping the game of things that make it unique and following the same old strategy that it always has, which is to trash old content and make it irrelevant as often as possible as well as continually fail to balance classes in a way that makes it annoying if you have a competitive spirit because the best classes change all the time. Not too long ago demonology warlocks were at the top and I was going to make one for the xpac...then it was monks, now both of those are middle of the pack and I don't see Ret near the top anymore either. The root problem is that there should not be any difference between numbers that everybody agrees are vital to success. When it comes to classes artwork and utility should be what makes it unique, we should not have any difference in dps/healing/tanking potential or at the very least they should be fairly close if perfect equality isn't entirely possible without stripping everything unique away from the classes.

Furthermore, blizzard has this weird habit of not utilizing algorithms to handle most numbers. It would be very simple to utilize algorithms to bring together the World of Warcraft into one game instead of all of these separate pieces that are marginalized/tossed to the side because they are only adequately rewarding at certain times in the game's history.

My solution: No zones have a defined level range anymore. You can choose to switch to "original level mode" but the default will be "scales to your level". As a result, no matter where you go everything you do will challenge and reward you based on your level and raid finder/easy level difficulty. If you want to increase the challenge and therefore the reward, allowing you to advance faster you merely increase the game's difficulty to normal, heroic or mythic. Eventually we can just toss these difficulty levels and offer a sliding bar that allows a game easier and less rewarding than LFR at the lowest and harder and more rewarding than mythic at the highest. Highest difficulty will literally be barely possible for a perfectly simulated raid group and offer the highest ilvl gear. In addition, all content will scale depending on who you bring; you can have a big raid group with monsters 5x as strong, 5x as much health, and 5x more loot or you can run it as a 5 man if you're short on players and/or have an elite group going for a certain time. It will not make sense to prioritize 5 mans over 25 mans to the alphas of a guild because they will have less gear to work with, however once they do have the gear it will look a bit like the current Mythic+ speed run groups while a new group of 5 will become the alphas of a new raid group.