Captain Marvel [2019]

[MrLachyG]

I liked Wonder Woman a lot, but Captain Marvel made the excellent choice to not include a romance sub-plot.

this. so much this. Marvel movies tend to just the right amount of romance when it is called for (Stark/Potts, Banner/Romanov) but doesn't make it a whole big thing

[Dextroden]

That's not a counterpoint, that's a digression

Well, no. If I'm supposed to doubt Jude Law because he's a douchebag, why should I trust a Skrull after the events in the intro other than The plot twist?

[tyrlaan]

this. so much this. Marvel movies tend to just the right amount of romance when it is called for (Stark/Potts, Banner/Romanov) but doesn't make it a whole big thing

Yeah, you know, I really appreciate this as well. Too many times movie romance is just tropey as hell

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Well, no. If I'm supposed to doubt Jude Law because he's a douchebag, why should I trust a Skrull after the events in the intro other than The plot twist?

It is a digression because it has nothing to do with trusting Yon-Rogg or not.

You're welcome to not trust a skrull, but it's completely independent of Yon-Rogg.

You're also welcome to do things like examine the evidence provided in the film and draw conclusions. This movie has the plainly clear "mentor is the manipulative bad guy" trope and the "misunderstood monster" trope. Surely you see this, no?

[s_bushido]

Where did I call her emotionless?

she barely seems to show much emotion through the movie?

You could at least edit your old post if you wanted to pretend you didn't say it.

[Jshadowhunter]

You want to talk about it being "bad writing" while ignoring that the scene is there to set up Fury being able to know that his boss is a Skrull later in the movie? Please.

No, it's not.

Fury discovers his boss is a Skrull because he calls him Nick when he specifically told Carol while they were driving to the airbase that everybody calls him Fury, not from the diner interrogation. So that scene earlier was still stupud.

[MrLachyG]

Did literally anyone but the anti-SJW butthurt brigade care about the evil feminist agenda apparently being pushed by the movie? Somehow, I doubt it.

the direct quote was: “I don’t want to hear what a white man has to say about ‘A Wrinkle in Time.’ I want to hear what a woman of color or a biracial woman has to say about the film. I want to hear what teenagers think about the film.”

I don't view that as anti white male, and I am one, I view that more as she wants more diversity amongst film critics. Sure, you can say that she alienated comic books major fan base but honestly 95% of white men probably don't give a shit and will see the movie anyway.

It is also such a minor point. Men who are railing against what she said would be better off actually helping other men to achieve equality in areas where they need it. People are taking small, very minor things people say out of context and blowing them up into huge issues when there are other things that also need fixing but are completely ignored. Left wing feminists, right wing masculinists should both get off their high horses and actually work for equality instead of twisting people's words and actions to suit their cause on issues that don't even matter

[Dextroden]

Yeah, you know, I really appreciate this as well. Too many times movie romance is just tropey as hell

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It is a digression because it has nothing to do with trusting Yon-Rogg or not.

You're welcome to not trust a skrull, but it's completely independent of Yon-Rogg.

You're also welcome to do things like examine the evidence provided in the film and draw conclusions. This movie has the plainly clear "mentor is the manipulative bad guy" trope and the "misunderstood monster" trope. Surely you see this, no?

I do. But I should doubt him because the movie did a good job setting that up. Not because you watched enough movies and the writing isn't spectacular, so you know he's a traitor.

[Skulltaker]

You're not. He was telling her that because he probably knew full well that if she went all out, she'd break the control that had been put in place to keep her in line. There's also the whole "people have been telling her she's not good enough her entire life" thing...and he was just one more to do it. Which is why she said what she said to him at the end of the movie. But I guess that was just the nefarious feminism trying to brainwash you, and not actually a relevant plot point.

Why again are you making this about feminism? And it being a relative plot point doesn't change the fact that it is an idiotic plot point to begin with. The entire 'supress your emotions, they are holding you back!' trope is not only extremly played out, it is also incredibly dumb and lazy. Need to give the character a struggle? Supress their emotions. Cool. How about something interesting for a change?

And again: How do they expect the character (or any character) to be a rolemodel for anyone if he or she isn't relatable? Superman is interesting, not because he can level a city in a heartbeat, but because despite having these amazing powers he still struggles with everyday life, especially his relation to Lois. Wonder Woman, despite technically not even being a human woman (the formed of clay and given life by zeus is still the current background, right?) manages to be both a fearsome warrior and a vulnerable human being who is insecure at times, naive, emotionally vulnerable. Tony Stark is a rich asshole that is faced with harsh truths, and has a deep change of heart, and when he sees that isn't enough, he steps up and takes responsibility for his crimes. Captain Americas strength comes from a place of deep emotion, the helplessness of not being physically fit to do what you feel is right, and then, given these amazing powers, remaining that good soul. These can be inspiring characters. What are girls and women around the world supposed to take away from Captain Marvel?

And there's another thing. Who the fuck is told constantly 'You're not good enough!' his or her entire life? Your parents? Maybe. Both of them, unlikely, but one of them, that happens. Happened to me. Abusive parents are a thing. But at a certain point, you move out, and go on with your life. A teacher or a single collegue, maybe. But all of them together? You have to be bloody inept for people to constantly tell you that you're a hack. Not good enough for something specific? Maybe. But at everything?
Society as a whole, at least in the west where this takes place, treasures and values our offspring and, to stick closer to the character, our 'little girls'. We don't put them down like that, not collectivly. Individualy, yes. Sadly.

[Maneo]

I have enjoyed all the Marvel movies (even Thor the Dark World). However, I have to say Captain Marvel is the one I enjoyed the absolute least. On a scale of 1-10 w/5 being met expectations, 10 being perfect, and 1 being absolute shit, I give it a solid 3. Most the other Marvel Movies range from a 6-8 w/me personally.

I am kinda tired of this overtly political stuff being shoe horned into "Hollywood" movies, I expect it in the Oscar bait films but not films like this.

Black Panther had a similar campaign the difference is that was a excellent movie and the actors in it didn't come across as unlikable or divisive. Still the whole "First major solo black superhero movie" kinda pissed me off, just have a image of Blade in my head saying "I started this gangsta shit, and this the mother fucking thanks I get", cause lets be honest Blade started it all.

I understand the appeal of the "first solo Marvel hero" but in my opinion that isn't enough to sell a movie on, and it seems to me that is exactly what Marvel did. Although it had its moments over all I would just describe the movie as bland. Really hope this isn't a precedent gong forward w/the Marvel films.

DC did it so much better w/Wonder Woman

[tyrlaan]

No, it's not.

Fury discovers his boss is a Skrull because he calls him Nick when he specifically told Carol while they were driving to the airbase that everybody calls him Fury, not from the diner interrogation. So that scene earlier was still stupud.

1) USE SPOILER TAGS. I will start reporting your posts if you don't.

2) It's a 2 part set up. One is that Fury establishes no one calls him anything other than Fury. Two is that Skrulls can only replicate short term memories.

You could argue that you only need one part of that set up, as you have here. But then that's a bit ironic coming from you when you argued earlier that inferring details that are not expressed clearly in the film is "headcanoning" and "bad writing".

I do. But I should doubt him because the movie did a good job setting that up. Not because you watched enough movies and the writing isn't spectacular, so you know he's a traitor.

Wait, the movie didn't do a good job of showing that Yon-Rogg was the main antagonist? Why do you feel this way.

I assume we're past you arguing about taking this character's word at face value though since you keep trying to shift the conversation?

[Skulltaker]

the direct quote was: “I don’t want to hear what a white man has to say about ‘A Wrinkle in Time.’ I want to hear what a woman of color or a biracial woman has to say about the film. I want to hear what teenagers think about the film.”

I don't view that as anti white male, and I am one, I view that more as she wants more diversity amongst film critics. Sure, you can say that she alienated comic books major fan base but honestly 95% of white men probably don't give a shit and will see the movie anyway.

It is also such a minor point. Men who are railing against what she said would be better off actually helping other men to achieve equality in areas where they need it. People are taking small, very minor things people say out of context and blowing them up into huge issues when there are other things that also need fixing but are completely ignored. Left wing feminists, right wing masculinists should both get off their high horses and actually work for equality instead of twisting people's words and actions to suit their cause on issues that don't even matter

Looking back at some of her conferences I agree that the interviewers are a noteable monochrome crowd. But it's still an irritating thing to say. I'm usually pretty straight forward, but phrasing and tone matter greatly. If you say 'I don't want to hear what X has to say about Y, that sound's... well, ignorant at best. You cannot be inclusive by excluding people. It's okay for her not to value someones opinion on a given topic as greatly as someone elses, because being affected by something or not greatly matters in how and how well you experience it. But any 40 year old male white movie critic who's worth his salt will still be able to give you a decent and thorough analysis of 'Wrinkle in Time', and just because he's white, or male, or 40, doesn't mean that his criticism or praise is wrong (or right), and neither does being a black teenager give you the magical insight to properly judge a movie better than anybody else, either. The perception of the movie will change, but objectivly, that doesn't make it better or worse. And just because a movie is greatly enjoyable for any minority doesn't evelate or degrade it either.

[Zantera]

Brie Larson was a bit hit or miss in the movie for me but I think it was more the writing and the story than her, because she's been great in other things and she was good in parts of this. I'll put this next part in spoiler as I don't want to ruin plot points for people:

I get the whole amnesia setup so you can have a fish out of water stuff at earth but it was a bit similar to Thor and also it didn't give her character that many interesting things to deal with other than the friend which came into play in the second half of the movie when she started remembering. I'm just throwing out ideas but how about instead of the amnesia, once she absorbed the powers it could have been more of a self-exile leaving earth to explore the origins of her powers and the motivation of Mar-vell. She could have also made the choice to leave earth to protect those around her (with dangerous powers) and maybe have some more interesting character stuff with her returning to earth because the plot takes her there, and also re-adjusting to life on earth. You could also get some interesting angle from SHIELD about the pilot that disappeared who reappears. I dunno just some ideas of what COULD have been interesting and given her a bit more emotional range to display.

[tyrlaan]

Brie Larson was a bit hit or miss in the movie for me but I think it was more the writing and the story than her, because she's been great in other things and she was good in parts of this. I'll put this next part in spoiler as I don't want to ruin plot points for people:

I get the whole amnesia setup so you can have a fish out of water stuff at earth but it was a bit similar to Thor and also it didn't give her character that many interesting things to deal with other than the friend which came into play in the second half of the movie when she started remembering. I'm just throwing out ideas but how about instead of the amnesia, once she absorbed the powers it could have been more of a self-exile leaving earth to explore the origins of her powers and the motivation of Mar-vell. She could have also made the choice to leave earth to protect those around her (with dangerous powers) and maybe have some more interesting character stuff with her returning to earth because the plot takes her there, and also re-adjusting to life on earth. You could also get some interesting angle from SHIELD about the pilot that disappeared who reappears. I dunno just some ideas of what COULD have been interesting and given her a bit more emotional range to display.

Yeah I think that's a fair criticism. What we got is pretty damn consistent with her comic book origins but it's not like the MCU hasn't taken liberties (wisely) in the past.

[roboscorcher]

this. so much this. Marvel movies tend to just the right amount of romance when it is called for (Stark/Potts, Banner/Romanov) but doesn't make it a whole big thing

One of the many great changes in Thor 3 was getting rid of Padme. It was a boring relationship, and dumping her opened up other possibilities, like Valkyrie.

[Jshadowhunter]

I mean, she starts off coming from a super technologically advanced society compared to earth so surely Fury and other humans seemed primitive to her until her memories started piecing together.

Carol's actually had the condescending tone even a the start before she met Fury.

Don't understand why the details around Fury's lost eye needed to be some big deal. But bonus points for dragging your TLJ hate into this thread.

Goose is a Top Gun reference. Presumably, someone decided they wanted that reference instead of a Star Wars one in the film. No big.

The thing about Fury's eye is a big deal because it's been teased in the past when Nick Fury chews out Captain America saying "Last time I trusted somebody it cost me an eye.", or when the Hydra executive forces him to unlock a door he goes "I learned to keep both of my eyes open."

So yeah it's a retcon and a slap in the face to Nick's character.
And I will always hate Last Jedi, there's no redemption after the trash that RJ did.

Seems like you're trying really hard to go into subtext despite your claim to the contrary, but anyway...

The flashback scenes you're talking about are a build up for the climax where she rejects the Supreme Intelligence. The rest, I dunno what to tell you. I mean, I watched the same movie as you but I'd say her progression from Kree warrior Vers to Captain Marvel Carol Danvers was straight forward and in no way made me feel like "everything about her before was a lie!"

And what's the difference between "Kree warrior Vers" to "Captain Marvel Carol Danvers"? Literally none other than who she thinks is the bad guy, nothing else about her changed at the revelation of her past.

Except Ronan didn't have the stone yet, so there's no reason to assume a fight with him would be anything different than the fights we already saw her have with Yon-Rogg and company.

Ronan always acted high and mighty. What's one woman from some planet of weak lifeforms gonna do?

Because not everyone hates Carol Danvers?

Only people who write her like her. But you only need to read Civil War 2 and you'll see how unlikable she actually is. Not just visually, but also personality vise.
I guess that one thing that the movie captured her perfectly, minus the authoritarian behaviour.

You not being able to draw a logical conclusion about a scene isn't bad writing.

I mean, by your argument here, movies would have to be literally as long as the time that transpires in the film because any moments that aren't spelled out or seen on screen would qualify as headcanon if the audience was expected to fill in the blanks.

You don't get it. One thing is making logical conclusion (like "why isn't he showing people going to the bathroom when they've been on the road for a week", because it's expected of people to figure that out), but it's another to make leaps of logic and then forcing the audiance to compensate for your own incompetence.

[MrLachyG]

Looking back at some of her conferences I agree that the interviewers are a noteable monochrome crowd. But it's still an irritating thing to say. I'm usually pretty straight forward, but phrasing and tone matter greatly. If you say 'I don't want to hear what X has to say about Y, that sound's... well, ignorant at best. You cannot be inclusive by excluding people. It's okay for her not to value someones opinion on a given topic as greatly as someone elses, because being affected by something or not greatly matters in how and how well you experience it. But any 40 year old male white movie critic who's worth his salt will still be able to give you a decent and thorough analysis of 'Wrinkle in Time', and just because he's white, or male, or 40, doesn't mean that his criticism or praise is wrong (or right), and neither does being a black teenager give you the magical insight to properly judge a movie better than anybody else, either. The perception of the movie will change, but objectivly, that doesn't make it better or worse. And just because a movie is greatly enjoyable for any minority doesn't evelate or degrade it either.

oh I agree. and this is where I think she was taken out of context a bit - she didn't say she wanted no white male film critics, or even less white male film critics - she just wanted there to be an equal amount of women film critics, black film critics, Asian film critics etc. The entire point of film is to appeal to everyone, but if we only ever hear reviews from one part of the population then it won't be representative of the entire audience

[roboscorcher]

My thoughts: it was a decent Marvel movie. Middle of the pack.


Everything in this movie is 'better than average' superhero storytelling, which is now the MCU standard. The hero design, the interconnected plot, even the twist, is 'decent'. Nothing comes close to the emotions that we experienced during Infinity War. As such, it is easy to call this movie mediocre.

However, CM still beats any any DCEU movie (except maybe WonderWoman, thank you Patty Jenkins) because even though it's somewhat bland, none of it is really bad. I rewatched Aquaman the day after CM and while some scenes are great, some are god awful. Further, the writing is garbage throughout. The older I get, the more I appreciate the "show, don't tell" rule. The DCEU can't seem to grasp this basic concept. If your characters cannot talk or act like relatable humans, the rest of the story doesn't matter.

Back to CM, I think Larson did a good job. I don't think her acting was bad, and her character was decent. She was meant to be strong yet repressed by her superiors . She portrays that well. I hope she loosens up in future movies, but it's fine if she remains the 'stern rational one' in the Avengers going forward. Not everyone can be a Mantis or Drax.

EDIT: Even though I am a straight white male, I thought CM did the female empowerment angle tastefully. The moments where she 'stuck it to the man' were well-earned. She was a good person who got entangled in a war, simply for doing her job. Also, her rebellious attitude was not out-of-character, as seen in her reclaimed memories. Her superpowers simply enabled her to beat the ultimate oppressor. That's something everyone can relate to, I hope.

[Goldielocks]

Pretty sure that's the point of the joke. Would it really matter if it was something else like a grenade or whatever? That's such a weird thing to really be upset about. I also don't see why you have spoiler tags. People obviously know he lost his eye.

People get mad over the slightest spoiler. Besides, no it's not weird at all. He lost his eye to a cat scratch. Really anticlimactic.

It's more original than say, losing his eye from an explosion triggered by a friend.

That being said, I don't know how he loses the eye in the comics, so I went in with a clean slate on that.

It's not about being original. Besides it doesn't need to be that way. It's Marvel. A million ways it could have been done and it was done in a really anti climactic way.

[tyrlaan]

One of the many great changes in Thor 3 was getting rid of Padme. It was a boring relationship, and dumping her opened up other possibilities, like Valkyrie.

Or just, no romance subplot, like they did in Thor 3.

<Fury stuff>

It's not a retcon, it's a "you choosing to interpret dialog to represent specific things when it doesn't have to".

And I will always hate Last Jedi, there's no redemption after the trash that RJ did.

I don't care if you hate it with the heat of a burning suns, it's weird that you need to drag it into this convo though.

<character dev stuff>

I can't explain to you what you failed to see in the movie that plainly presented it.

<Ronan gripe>

Captain Marvel just cut through one of his ships like it was butter, and you think he should still consider her "one woman from some planet of weak lifeforms"?

Only people who write her like her. But you only need to read Civil War 2 and you'll see how unlikable she actually is. Not just visually, but also personality vise.

I'm sure you can provide a citation to back this up.

Yeah some people have written her very poorly. But some people have written most characters very poorly at some point.

You don't get it. One thing is making logical conclusion (like "why isn't he showing people going to the bathroom when they've been on the road for a week", because it's expected of people to figure that out), but it's another to make leaps of logic and then forcing the audiance to compensate for your own incompetence.

No get it just fine. They are both logical conclusions that need the tiniest amount of logic applied.

I'm not responding to anything else you post until I see some spoiler tags and I'm reporting your previous post since you refused to do so after I called this out.

[Svifnymr]

I tell my son all the time "The person who says something about anything just to say something, never has anything worth saying at all". Everyone so quick to say something about feminism, sexism, misogyny and all those other buzz words ate the bait and it was all for nothing.

It just seems like baiting people into hating your movie doesn't really represent a quality movie well. Maybe they just lost faith in it? I think it's more just a bubble-effect thing, but meh.

The plot was very easy to see through though, knowing her past and her present to see where her future would be. We also got a good idea that the Kree are not the "Heros" of the galaxy from the seasons of Agents of Shield. So it was not that hard to see how events turned out. Also knowing Ronin before hand from GotG did not help things either.

The Kree as an expansionist empire with zero tolerance perfectly fits into their history and stuff and no problem with it at all. They don't need to be bad guys to be the antagonist.
The Skrull as defeated refugees that are the victim of an evil empire? Didn't really care for it at all. Skrull deserve better, IMO.

The action was decent, the end battle was fun to watch, good eye-candy. It could have used a bit more fisticuffs i think. That was a STUPID way of telling the tale of Fury's eye patch >.<

We got alot of shoutouts to Agents of Shield and the Avengers Initiative too which was really cool to see. This movie did a good job tieing into the first Avengers film. I liked it

I thought it pushed too hard trying to cram into the MCU history like it'd always been there. Easy enough to fit in some details without going that far.

I think that this was a solid movie all told. But the final end credit scene has me scratching my head now. I do not know if spoiler tags are allowed but those who saw the movie know what I mean and I am now wondering how the events in Infinity War were able to happen with that scene.

I'm actually wondering about the events of the Snap elsewhere. She got paged as Fury was dying, but at that same time half the universe died everywhere. I think the pager was just a bad idea and she should have just returned to Earth to see if her friend got Snapped or not, rather than intergalactic pager summoning for this one problem.

Hell, if she's on some random world and sees half them die, and then gets a page from Fury, and finds out that every planet everywhere lost half, why would she think the Fury Page was anything special? Fury didn't even know Thanos/ Wakanda, did he? If she handed out summoning stones to a couple planets, they'd all be like "omg, half the peeps dead!" at the same time...

Everyone was bitching about her lack of a smile, unless they did millions in re-shoots, yeah....... the world took the bait.
Everyone bitching about lack of emotions, again unless there were millions in re-shoots yeah....... the world took the bait. Considering her background and her time with the Kree, I expected her to have a lack of them but she did good in what I saw.
Everyone bitching about the diversity bullshit, and the white male bullshit,yeah....... the world took the bait.

To be fair, they DID do reshoots after the initial trailer and that reaction. No clue what they changed, but I think that "smile" scene is obviously tossed in to spite fans with criticism. I doubt they added the "control your emotion" stuff and I never cared about the diversify reviewers thing.

As for her emotional stuff, I don't think they did it well from either a marketing or movie side. Jude Law/ Annette Benning both really failed to deliver, especially Benning as Mind. Spock would be the icon there, and the fight scenes more matrix/ detached. Larson's lack of emoting always seemed out of sync with what was going on though.