Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[Ragedaug]

Ask Markus and McFeely and you get one answer. Ask the Russos and you get another. They’ll make a decision later.

Yup. Exactly why it frustrates me. I mean, I don't lose sleep over it, I'm just not able to enjoy the movie as much as I would have liked 'cause my mind is trying to make everything work, which ends up typically just making more and more things stand out as not making sense.

I also don't blindly accept the excuse, "it works this way because the writers and/or director said so". They have all the power to make whatever rules they want in their universe...except the power to contradict those rules...unless it's a self-aware comedy. Otherwise, when writers & directors break their own story's rules, it takes me out of the story.

[Leih]

This seems like it would just mean there's an additional time fork where they didn't have it. The first branch was created when they took the stone, then another branch is created when they brought the stone back. The first fork is still completely screwed, but we are supposed to be happy because they don't mention that fork, so we get to not think about it, then we can just think about the new fork that has the stone again.

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You don't "fix a branch". In branch time theory, you create a new one. The broken branch is still broken.

I'm not super happy about diving into time travel mechanics because it's REALLY not meant to be the point in this film but...

The way I see it, in terms of how it works in the film, there is one "Primary Timeline" which represents the way time is meant to go based on the history of the characters we know. That's "Timeline A". If you change something in Timeline A, it creates a branch, but regardless of branches created, the Avengers from Timeline A can always travel back and forth within Timeline A - it's not like BTTF where if they try to move forward again after a branch they end up in the branch future.

If they, after creating a branch, go back through Timeline A again and undo the action that created that branch, then rather than it splintering a new branch, the old branch is erased and replaced. That's because Timeline A is the prime, original Timeline (for OUR version of the Avengers, at least). Any other multiverse timelines have been spawned by the time travel actions of the characters in the film... if they undo those actions, they change the events again, and any old branches were stopped (and new ones created).

I think it's specifically not like general "multiverse theory" from other media with cascading paths and branches for every possible choice and timejump.

Though there's still lots of weird consequences of this. If they're erasing branches created... I mean, what about the consciousness of the entities living in that branch? Did you just erase a universe from existence? Whoops.

Regardless of how it works, I think there's some deeper morality to be explored there... but who's to say that won't come up later? The Far From Home trailer already uses the word "Multiverse." Like I say, I think this sort of questions aren't really the point in Endgame... but some of these things might be deliberately left open to be explored and cause issues in future films. After all, looks like going with cosmic entities and multiverses is the way forward for the MCU after Thanos.

[Aurrora]

You don't "fix a branch". In branch time theory, you create a new one. The broken branch is still broken. Again, this is why TT gets so messy. To have a satisfying story you have to employ multiple TT theories to create a satisfying ending. If you could fix a branch by altering it, you wouldn't have created the branch to start with, you would have just altered the prime/only timeline.

You create a branch by travelling to your timeline's past. When they return the stones they're no longer traveling to their past but across timelines, as they are not from that timeline's future they don't cause additional branching.

[Ragedaug]

You create a branch by travelling to your timeline's past. When they return the stones they're no longer traveling to their past but across timelines, as they are not from that timeline's future they don't cause additional branching.

That was another problem with the ending. Cap goes "back in time", when what he actually needed to do was not only travel in time, but also to travel to multiple universes as there were more than 3 branches created when they went back to obtain the stones.

Then lets assume someone ...not Ironman, cause he's no longer there... figures out how to not only adjust how to jump to a specific time, but also adjust it to figure how to 'verse hop. But even then, consider he hops to all the new 'verses created by those branches when they took the stones, and restores stones to those branches, all he ended up doing was creating even more branches, and nothing he can do can fix the branch that the stone was taken from. As soon as he gets back there to reintroduce the stone, that creates another branch. That branch/'verse that the stone was take from still has no stone and is still screwed.

[Ophenia]

Anyone else also (slightly) disappointed we didn't get to see Black Widow in the end, as we saw Gamora in the end of Infinity War ?

I dunno, I had expected that at some point, Thanos would be denied another snap simply because the Soul Stone denied its power to someone who didn't fulfill the sacrifice. That's what I thought would happen, instead of Iron Man sneakily "stealing" the stones. Thanos gets the Gauntlet, snaps, appears in the Soul World and Black Widow tells him something like "bitch you thought", and the snap simply doesn't happen.

I really, really hoped that the Soul Stone was very different than the other Stones, as explained by Red skull in the first movie. But in the end, it's just a rock, it's never even used by itself to do anything relevant (unlike all the other ones, which we had the opportunity to see in action).

[Leih]

Anyone else also (slightly) disappointed we didn't get to see Black Widow in the end, as we saw Gamora in the end of Infinity War ?

I dunno, I had expected that at some point, Thanos would be denied another snap simply because the Soul Stone denied its power to someone who didn't fulfill the sacrifice. That's what I thought would happen, instead of Iron Man sneakily "stealing" the stones. Thanos gets the Gauntlet, snaps, appears in the Soul World and Black Widow tells him something like "bitch you thought", and the snap simply doesn't happen.

I really, really hoped that the Soul Stone was very different than the other Stones, as explained by Red skull in the first movie. But in the end, it's just a rock, it's never even used by itself to do anything relevant (unlike all the other ones, which we had the opportunity to see in action).

I guess the one time we see the Soul Stone used specifically is during Thanos and Dr Strange's fight in Infinity War. Thanos uses the Soul Stone on Strange at one point there. That's about it though.

Soul Stone was definitely underused in the franchise, mainly because it seemed a bit of an afterthought in IW... all the other stones we had heard of and seen before in previous films, so we knew what they can do.

[Aurrora]

That was another problem with the ending. Cap goes "back in time", when what he actually needed to do was not only travel in time, but also to travel to multiple universes as there were more than 3 branches created when they went back to obtain the stones.

Then lets assume someone ...not Ironman, cause he's no longer there... figures out how to not only adjust how to jump to a specific time, but also adjust it to figure how to 'verse hop. But even then, consider he hops to all the new 'verses created by those branches when they took the stones, and restores stones to those branches, all he ended up doing was creating even more branches, and nothing he can do can fix the branch that the stone was taken from. As soon as he gets back there to reintroduce the stone, that creates another branch. That branch/'verse that the stone was take from still has no stone and is still screwed.

Presumably it's all accessible through the quantum realm with no additional features needed. After all, they were able to return to their future/present from a branched timeline. Getting back to that branch is just a matter of retracing their path.

[Leih]

Presumably it's all accessible through the quantum realm with no additional features needed. After all, they were able to return to their future/present from a branched timeline. Getting back to that branch is just a matter of retracing their path.

Why would they have to go back to the branched timeline(s) in the first place?

He would only need to travel within the main, original timeline. Just travel back to the same point in the main timeline they jumped to the first time and the moment the relevant Stone is stolen, put it straight back.

Branch fixed!

[Aurrora]

Why would they have to go back to the branched timeline(s) in the first place?

He would only need to travel within the main, original timeline. Just travel back to the same point in the main timeline they jumped to the first time and the moment the relevant Stone is stolen, put it straight back.

Branch fixed!

Because at that point they would be travelling across the personal history of the stones, resulting in additional branching.

[Leih]

Because at that point they would be travelling across the personal history of the stones, resulting in additional branching.

Not sure what you're basing this on?

Seems like they travel back and forth within their own timeline, to me... as illustrated by the orange line in the Ancient One's visualisation. I'm not sure I understand why they'd have to travel down any branch to return the stones.

[Ragedaug]

Presumably it's all accessible through the quantum realm with no additional features needed. After all, they were able to return to their future/present from a branched timeline. Getting back to that branch is just a matter of retracing their path.

I'm not disputing that part. We don't have to understand how it works, but going forward we know they can use the quantum realm to time travel and verse hop. My contention is that it was pointless to "bring the stones back", because you are just creating additional branches. Not fixing the other branches that were created. I also wanted to note that Steve was multiverse hoping, which I suspect very few people think about. He's not just going back in time, because his timeline still has it's stones in the past. He's going to some of the other new branches, but again, it's completely pointless for Cap to bring them back, as the 2nd time he returns, he's just creating new branches. You can't ever fix a time branch by time jumping to that branch. You just create a new branch.

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Not sure what you're basing this on?

Seems like they travel back and forth within their own timeline, to me... as illustrated by the orange line in the Ancient One's visualisation. I'm not sure I understand why they'd have to travel down any branch to return the stones.

The stones were never removed from the prime story line. If they were, the snap never could have happened. That's why the writers/director went with time branches...plus that's Marvel's thing already. When they went back in time to take a stone, they create a new timeline. That was part of what they were explaining, you can't go back and "change the past" as it only creates a new branch and all those suffering in the prime timeline are still suffering.

Then the problem is they decide to change or fix those branched timelines, after they tell us they can't fix the past, so all they end up doing is creating even more branches.

[Leih]

The stones were never removed from the prime story line. If they were, the snap never could have happened. That's why the writers/director went with time branches...plus that's Marvel's thing already. When they went back in time to take a stone, they create a new timeline. That was part of what they were explaining, you can't go back and "change the past" as it only creates a new branch and all those suffering in the prime timeline are still suffering.

Then the problem is they decide to change or fix those branched timelines, after they tell us they can't fix the past, so all they end up doing is creating even more branches.

Nah that's not what I meant.

Sorry, it's really hard to explain this sort of shit in words. I'd draw a diagram if I wasn't at work.

I'm not saying it doesn't form a branch timeline, I'm saying the whole branch is all the events of the time travelling combined into a branch, rather than it being a cascade of infinite branching based on each action.

The Avenger's timeline now goes like this: 2012->2013->2014->2015->blahblahblah->2024->2012(B)->2013(B)->2014(B)->2024 so he can easily go back to that point in 2012B, and return the stone. In doing so, he fixes the problem with the Timeline B branch missing the stone. Like Hulk says, your future is now your past and the past is now your future.

Those points during the time travel are cross-over points where the two timelines touch, simply because someone from Timeline A was there at at the time, that period is now also part of Timeline A (and Timeline B at the same time). And travelling around in Timeline A is no problem, so you can return to those points.

[SirBeef]

There is no way to square everything being "corrected" in other schism worlds with - for example - Thanos, Gamora and Nebula being missing in 2014-B. Replacing the Power Stone does not fix that. Alternatively, Steve exists for decades in a 1945-B schism world that had absolutely nothing to do with the Infinity Stones, then returned to 2019-A.

Swinton's dialogue is a prosaic way of saying "We need the Time Stone to remain here or in five years we'll all die to Dormammu's invasion". Clearly the Infinity Stone do not literally "create... the flow of time" otherwise causality would have been destroyed as soon as Thanos erased the gems.

But they were not from 2014B, they were from the original timeline just in the past. Same thing with Cap. Yes, I know what she said, and Hulk showed her how any splinters are erased once the stones are replaced.

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Returning the stones wasn't to stop a branching timeline. Timelines branched the moment they time traveled.

Returning the stones was about not causing those branches of the timeline to suffer the same consequences of the stones being missing that the main timeline is currently facing. They tease it at the beginning of the film during the conference call: "What's happening on Earth is happening across the universe, on thousands of worlds."

In the movie the Ancient Once showed Hulk time lines splintering when a stone was removed, and Hulk showed her how it would undo that if it was returned at the same moment it was taken. The splinter was erased.

[Ophenia]

In the movie the Ancient Once showed Hulk time lines splintering when a stone was removed, and Hulk showed her how it would undo that if it was returned at the same moment it was taken. The splinter was erased.

The ancient One did not show the "splintering". The splintering already happened and that isn't a problem by itself.
What she showed is that this timeline became darker, as it became vulnerable to A LOT of mystic/cosmic threats due to the absence of one Stone.

When Hulk "pushed it back on track", it doesn't mean the reality is erased (...), it means it became "normal" again.

Just think about it, erasing a reality doesn't make sense at all. Does that mean everyone in this reality stop existing ? If a Reality were erased, the only consequence is that this reality would become the official one, which it obviously didn't (because 2010 and 2014 ones were already heavily fucked up by the events occurring there because of Avengers).

Alternate Realities were created when the OG Avengers came in. The realities "branched out" when the Stone was taken out, becoming vulnerable to god-knows-what (Dormammu-level of threat), then the reality was "fixed" when the Stones returned. But the reality continued to exist in its own timeline, in parallel with billions of other realities, with its own events occurring.

[Aurrora]

But they were not from 2014B, they were from the original timeline just in the past. Same thing with Cap. Yes, I know what she said, and Hulk showed her how any splinters are erased once the stones are replaced.

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In the movie the Ancient Once showed Hulk time lines splintering when a stone was removed, and Hulk showed her how it would undo that if it was returned at the same moment it was taken. The splinter was erased.

The dark path that the timelines would be on without the stones were negated, not that the timeline branched. The stones are needed for that reality to function correctly since they are fundamental aspect of it.

If this was about preventing timelines from branching why would Steve return the stones and then say "fuck it" and create his own timeline branch where he lived with Peggy?

[tyrlaan]

I know I've partaken in some of the debate about how time travel worked in the film, but it occurred to me this morning that sorting it out to the level of detail being discussed here just seems unnecessary.

Based on the film itself, we can tell that the characters didn't have complete understanding of how it works and almost certainly made several mistakes. And it also seems that this will be used to tell future MCU stories.

So we know on the surface level how it worked. We know that the characters left behind some messes. We know that the MCU is not going to act like no messes were created. These three statements combined are sufficient to understand the movie and consider the film internally consistent.

That's good enough for me. We're not spending pages in the thread sorting out how Tony's latest suit works, or what material Thanos' blade needs to be made out of to break vibranium, or when Pepper had time to master an IM suit, etc.; we just generally accept these things. If this were hard sci-fi, perhaps I'd feel different.

[Leih]

I know I've partaken in some of the debate about how time travel worked in the film, but it occurred to me this morning that sorting it out to the level of detail being discussed here just seems unnecessary.

Based on the film itself, we can tell that the characters didn't have complete understanding of how it works and almost certainly made several mistakes. And it also seems that this will be used to tell future MCU stories.

So we know on the surface level how it worked. We know that the characters left behind some messes. We know that the MCU is not going to act like no messes were created. These three statements combined are sufficient to understand the movie and consider the film internally consistent.

That's good enough for me. We're not spending pages in the thread sorting out how Tony's latest suit works, or what material Thanos' blade needs to be made out of to break vibranium, or when Pepper had time to master an IM suit, etc.; we just generally accept these things. If this were hard sci-fi, perhaps I'd feel different.

I've said it before but I agree with you. People overthink this stuff when it's not really the point in the movie. There's plenty of room to address the fallout of these things in future movies down the line. Some of these "mistakes" might even be intentional to leave room for future shenanigans.

[SirBeef]

Somewhere down the road we are all going to be baffled by the fact the highest (or one of the highest) grossing movies of all time is basically an episode of dr. who, and a wacky one at that.

Also, it seems to me all the timy whimy stuff is an excuse for their multiverse so that they can make those disney+ shows without having to worry about continuity.

I don't think it's an excuse. The multiverse can exist without any time travel shenanigans.

[Ophenia]

I don't think it's an excuse. The multiverse can exist without any time travel shenanigans.

But at least now we already have the context, no need to spend 10 episodes to set up the whole thing.

2010's timeline for Loki serie starting right after Avengers.
2014's timeline for WandaVision serie starting whenever they want.

[tyrlaan]

I've said it before but I agree with you. People overthink this stuff when it's not really the point in the movie. There's plenty of room to address the fallout of these things in future movies down the line. Some of these "mistakes" might even be intentional to leave room for future shenanigans.

Bring on the shenanigans I say!!

But at least now we already have the context, no need to spend 10 episodes to set up the whole thing.

2010's timeline for Loki serie starting right after Avengers.
2014's timeline for WandaVision serie starting whenever they want.

Isn't WandaVision set in the 50s? I much more likely suspect that WandaVision is the SW using her powers to conjure up a happy little reality for herself.