Did Garrosh do anything wrong?

[Deleted]

Besides the Mists of Pandaria story arc, did he ever do anything wrong?

[somebodyz]

It'll be better to ask Jaina for such question.

[Nevcairiel]

He is dead now, and not from old age. That usually doesn't happen if you do everything right.

[Deleted]

Besides the Mists of Pandaria story arc, did he ever do anything wrong?

Not until MoP butchered his character, and then he turned into a loser in WoD.

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He is dead now, and not from old age. That usually doesn't happen if you do everything right.

Varian Wrynn, Vol'Jin and Cairne Bloodhoof would like to have a word with you.

[Varodoc]

Marching on Gilneas (neutral city) during a world-ending threat, thus driving them towards the Alliance, how would you call that?

Varian Wrynn, Vol'Jin and Cairne Bloodhoof would like to have a word with you.

Varian Wrynn/Vol'jin: Fools who were played like fiddles by Gul'dan and Detheroc.
Cairne Bloodhoof: An old buffoon who failed to realize the deceit of the Twilight Hammer.

If you don't die of old age/illness, then you did something wrong, this is logic.

[Deleted]

Besides the Mists of Pandaria story arc, did he ever do anything wrong?

Nope. Blizzard wanted a loot pinata for MoP and Garrosh was the unlucky one. Back in Cataclysm the team was conflicted on which path to take with Garrosh, some wanted him a honorable leader and others wanted him evil. They chose poorly.

The Mag'har questline gives hints towards this decision and Blizzard realizes they could've done better. Also the position of Warchief always switching and becoming a joke is another hint that things went to shit after Garrosh was removed from power.

Perhaps he'll return one day to get a redemption arc like Illidan. People said the same things about Illidan, that he was made a loot pinata without deserving that treatment. Eventually he got his redemption so why not the same for Garrosh in the future?

We'll see.

[Deleted]

He treated the other Horde races like shit

[Al Gorefiend]

Marching on Gilneas (neutral city) during a world-ending threat, thus driving them towards the Alliance, how would you call that?


Varian Wrynn/Vol'jin: Fools who were played like fiddles by Gul'dan and Detheroc.
Cairne Bloodhoof: An old buffoon who failed to realize the deceit of the Twilight Hammer.

If you don't die of old age/illness, then you did something wrong, this is logic.

Dying of old age is the lazy way out. People who die of old age do so from spending their entire lives doing nothing or holding up in their homes because they never leave it. Heroes and go-getters die tragically doing heroic things!

[Stelio Kontos]

Dying of old age is the lazy way out. People who die of old age do so from spending their entire lives doing nothing or holding up in their homes because they never leave it. Heroes and go-getters die tragically doing heroic things!

Heroes, go-getters, and genocidal tyrants, you mean, since we're talking about Garrosh.

[Nevcairiel]

Dying of old age is the lazy way out. People who die of old age do so from spending their entire lives doing nothing or holding up in their homes because they never leave it. Heroes and go-getters die tragically doing heroic things!

Even then, thats not how Garrosh ended. He fled cowardly and then was slain on a field in Nagrand, while unraveling his psyche.

[Stormdash]

In Wrath, he nearly got Warsong Hold flanked and crushed by the Scourge by ignoring obvious dangers and not responding because he was more concerned about the Alliance than the Lich MF King he was actually there to campaign against, and got secretly bailed out by Saurfang.

In Cataclysm after giving a pretty rousing damn speech he managed to basically fuck up the assault on the Twilight Highlands by going SQUIRREL! when he saw Alliance and leaving his fleet uncovered to get rekt by twilight dragons (the twilight cult being the actual target of the invasion).

In "Tides of War" he opted to set up his grand "me make big boom" decapitation strike against the Alliance in Theramore rather than just do what he could have done pretty effortlessly which is just march straight from Northwatch down to Theramore and capture it through conventional means instead of waiting additional days to bait a hook for the mana bomb. But because mana bombs look more awesome, I guess, he succeeded in bringing the Kirin Tor mostly into the Alliance, Kalecgos into the Kirin Tor, created Darth Proudmoore, and therefore had his own fleet defeated in its own harbor instead of having conquered all of Kalimdor as intended.

(Still pending: how Sylvanas does following Garrosh's "it's a bold strategy, Cotton" theory)

In WOD, he went and founded the Iron Horde which got pretty fucking rolled in pretty epic fashion before he himself was finally cornered in Grommoshar and executed pretty casually by Thrall under the pretense of an honor duel. Oh and the downstream effects of his choices were an orc people on a version of Draenor arguably more oppressed and deprived than they were in his own timeline.

Garrosh was hit or miss as an inspirational leader for the Horde. As a tactician and long-term thinker, he was never anything but a dumpster fire.

[Donald Hellscream]

He seemed to have a hard time focusing on an actual threat and leaving himself open to others.

he constantly seemed to focus on more distant threats and completely ignored the threats right infront him, like the scourge in northrend or the twilight's hammer in Twilight Highlands.

[Wildberry]

It'll be better to ask Jaina for such question.

What would Jaina know about him doing everything wrong? She's only familiar with him attacking a legitimate military target.

He is dead now, and not from old age. That usually doesn't happen if you do everything right.

Unfortunately, things like "treasonous underlings" are outside of his control to a degree.

Marching on Gilneas (neutral city) during a world-ending threat, thus driving them towards the Alliance, how would you call that.

Invading neutral territory for a geostrategic advantage over another global power is a valid tactic with a number of irl parallels. The "during a world-ending threat" bit is entirely irrelevant and thrown in by you just to make nothing sound worse than it is.

He treated the other Horde races like shit

He was the Warchief, and had canonical authority to do so. The other Horde races got treated like shit because they deserved it. Perhaps if they didn't comprise a disproportionate chunk of dissidents, and weren't serving as racial constituencies for rabble-rousing leaders with authority issues, they'd have fared better.

In Wrath, he nearly got Warsong Hold flanked and crushed by the Scourge by ignoring obvious dangers and not responding because he was more concerned about the Alliance than the Lich MF King he was actually there to campaign against, and got secretly bailed out by Saurfang.

You're making a very dishonest implication here, and I know you've been corrected on it a number of times.

For a soldier of the Horde, loss is absolute. Loss means death and there is no negotiation or interpretation with death. One can only hope that the manner of their death was honorable.

But victory... Victory can mean many things. As you have probably noticed, the Kor'kron are there in full force. The Warchief has sent his elite guard to help secure victory in Northrend. They, along with you and other heroes, are pushing the Lich King and his forces towards an inevitable conclusion. With each challenge you overcome, we are one step closer to ridding our world of Arthas and the Scourge.

And therein lays the dilemma. For you see, our forces in Northrend work under the auspices of young Hellscream. Each victory bolsters the morale of the Horde forces here, which carries through to the rest of Azeroth.

It is unfortunate, then, that Hellscream employs such savage tactics. As victory approaches, Hellscream gains further justification for his methods, which in turn brings us closer to a place we have not been in many years: a dark place.

--"Letter From Saurfang"

And yet, Cairne Could not argue with Garrosh's success and popularity, nor the joyful zeal and passion with which the Horde responded to him...

there was no denying the fact that he had led incursions that had been unqualified successes. He had brought back to the Horde a fierce sense of pride and fire for battle. He had managed, every time, to turn what looked like lunacy into a rousing success.

Cairne was too intelligent to dismiss this as coincidence or accident. So bold he could be called reckless Garrosh might be, but recklessness did not yield the results that Grom's son had gotten. Garrosh had been exactly what the Horde needed at what was arguably its darkest, most vulnerable hour, and Cairne was willing to give the boy that.

--The Shattering, p12-3

This will never not be canon.

In Cataclysm after giving a pretty rousing damn speech he managed to basically fuck up the assault on the Twilight Highlands by going SQUIRREL! when he saw Alliance and leaving his fleet uncovered to get rekt by twilight dragons (the twilight cult being the actual target of the invasion).

The Horde was at open war with the Alliance, at that point. Furthermore, we know that the Twilight Dragonflight knew where to attack because Sauranok had betrayed us. Which you conveniently left out.

In "Tides of War" he opted to set up his grand "me make big boom" decapitation strike against the Alliance in Theramore rather than just do what he could have done pretty effortlessly which is just march straight from Northwatch down to Theramore and capture it through conventional means instead of waiting additional days to bait a hook for the mana bomb.

You're understating the value of taking out Alliance leadership.

he succeeded in bringing the Kirin Tor mostly into the Alliance,

This is dishonest and you know it. The Kirin Tor retains its "neutrality" stance until further into MoP. Beyond that, how "neutral" are the Kirin Tor, when they send their leader and forces to assist the Alliance against what they believed to be a conventional assault?

therefore had his own fleet defeated in its own harbor

This is blatantly false. "Tides of War" states that there were 4 ships of Garrosh's that, alongside Kraken, repelled the Alliance fleets assault on the harbor. The Horde's fleet was already preparing for a blockade elsewhere. 4 ships=/= "his own fleet."

[Varodoc]

Invading neutral territory for a geostrategic advantage over another global power is a valid tactic with a number of irl parallels. The "during a world-ending threat" bit is entirely irrelevant and thrown in by you just to make nothing sound worse than it is.

Yet you Horde players constantly bash Greymane for doing the exact same thing in Stormheim.

[Super Dickmann]

Yes, he lost.

[Stormdash]

This will never not be canon.

Neither will the played through, unambiguous actual events in the questing that support no conclusion other than what I described. Saurfang's letter only echoes his own command to the HPC that Garrosh's fuck-up be secret (i.e. sending one man to do an organized forces job and Saurfang having to cleave his way to a remedy). Cairne isn't the voice of the author, there isn't even textual evidence to know that Cairne even knew that -- at least in the earliest days of the Horde expedition -- Garrosh was being carried.

The Horde was at open war with the Alliance, at that point. Furthermore, we know that the Twilight Dragonflight knew where to attack because Sauranok had betrayed us. Which you conveniently left out.

A) the very fact that the Horde knew of an informer to the Twilight Cult made it more, not less, to treat the invasion as one that might be met with resistance -- which is the opposite of sending off the fighter shield for your invasion force on an obvious whim, and
B) so what they were at war with the Alliance? They were in battle with Twilight Cult, which is to say, they were on their way to it. Would you have redirected the damn Normandy invasion if by some fluke occurrence an envoy from the Japanese navy had crossed the Atlantic to sail for Germany and had happened into the Channel that day? There's "mission creep" and there's... well, "squirrel!"

You're understating the value of taking out Alliance leadership.

You're overrating it's theoretical value against the proven lack of practical value it actually accomplished. What exactly went worse for the Alliance that you can specifically point to and say "they would have won if only they still had Marcus Jonathan" or "if only they still had Tiras'alan"? Theoretically Rhonin and his Knaak-iest is a game changer, but Garrosh personally appointed his lore replacement as ridiculously overpowered mage with Jaina. Who, btw, it is a helluva lot less likely to believe turns into what she turned into if she doesn't have certain special moments like Kinndy turning to dust in her hands, let alone whatever effects being suffused with fallout from the mana bomb had on her. Or the idea to steal the Focusing Iris in the first place because it had been used to such effect against her, which is how Garrosh got rolled in his own harbor. Oh yeah! Forgot in context that it's by pure luck -- or certainly nothing at all to do with Garrosh's brilliant leadership -- that his tactical choice at Theramore didn't lead to the literal extermination of every living inhabitant of Orgrimmar at Jaina's hand.

This is dishonest and you know it. The Kirin Tor retains its "neutrality" stance until further into MoP. Beyond that, how "neutral" are the Kirin Tor, when they send their leader and forces to assist the Alliance against what they believed to be a conventional assault?

Lorewise, it had a very tentative but nonetheless Alliance-leaning neutrality from the time of that attack, and then explicitly went Alliance during MOP during the Purge, and went grudgingly back to neutrality in Legion.

This is blatantly false. "Tides of War" states that there were 4 ships of Garrosh's that, alongside Kraken, repelled the Alliance fleets assault on the harbor. The Horde's fleet was already preparing for a blockade elsewhere. 4 ships=/= "his own fleet."

Yeah, I probably over-stated it. But seeing as it's a moment in which he nonetheless got dickpunched and all those same ships preparing to lay siege elsewhere had to head for home -- and that, as noted above, that itself was the "good news" as substitute for Darth Jaina obliterating Orgrimmar outright, it's still Garrosh taking the L hard.

Had he done as seemed obvious -- that which even Baine seemed at least at peace with and the Horde in general seemed a bit revved for as a fair play, that which Jaina seemed doggedly intent on resisting but nonetheless sort of resigned to as well as Varian, et al -- and just marched straight for Theramore and sacked it and taken prisoners and exchanged them and whatever else you do -- he had a much, much better chance at cinching up Kalimdor than by doing what he did.

Garrosh was like Chunk in the Goonies -- let him hold the painting and count to five if you want it to get dropped and break. There are always folk around you can count on to turn most everything they touch to shit, and Garrosh was that to the bone.

[Wildberry]

Yet you Horde players constantly bash Greymane for doing the exact same thing in Stormheim.

A.) Irrelevant I'm not one of those Horde players
B.) Those players usually just call it casus belli for BfA.

[Stormdash]

Yet you Horde players constantly bash Greymane for doing the exact same thing in Stormheim.

I can be equal opportunity here because they were both stupid. But in point of fact, most of the scathing rebuke of Greymane in this isn't because he went all "squirrel!" on the Forsaken force and ignored his mission -- it's because unlike Garrosh that wasn't even his call to make. Garrosh was Warchief, he can waste time and lives on whatever whim he wants. Greymane was under orders to do the exact opposite of what he did, he led something between mutiny and outright treason. And didn't even get scolded, frankly, because Anduin is an earnest and naive little twerp.

EDIT: Oh, and yeah, he also lost. If you're going to ignore your boss' orders to go on a side mission, you probably should not fail.

[Life-Binder]

Besides the Mists of Pandaria story arc, did he ever do anything wrong?

you mean besides that one expansion arc that defined him and his legacy for all eternity ?


nope, not much

[zlygork]

He made enemies his allies. And from an orc culture PoV I must question the tactics that he used in combat (such as releasing jormungar and other northrend shit in ashenvale to win the battle