[Spoilers] Lost Honor Cinematic

[Zandalariprelate]

When it comes to the different magics, Fel, Death and Void are usually the big ones we fight with. Many times the others are because of Old God manipulation/control and Malygos going rogue and then there's the 2 political ones that still ended with Void and Fel.
Death has slowly been rebuilding into a huge threat again, even being developed as something more than it was before. Void is still the biggest threat and obvious one to reoccur and Fel has fallen hard. I think Light is slowly replacing fel as a member of the 3 evil powers, with Fel probably coming back again later as fodder of the Void(just like the Void uses Elementals and corrupted nature).

I think don't think will fight Elementals/element as a big threat ever again, but I can see Magatha doing some dark shamanism. Arcane is probably never an enemy again, besides individuals(though it's never been a force like nature, light, void, etc... just a tool). I do think we'll see an evil nature power rise up thanks to the Botani now on Azeroth, going unnoticed. And Fel is now one of these lesser forces that we'll never again see being the major enemy of Warcraft again, unless somehow blizzard decides to keep wow going far longer than it should.

So in my opinion Light, Death have a huge threat coming and void most likely has 2(especially if BFA ends with N'zoth)

While death or the shadowlands had got a lot of hype and build up we have seen in this expansion that light and void are capable of necromancy and probably has a better hold in souls(in fact I theorize the void and the lighg wants to get rid of the death entities and steal all the sould of that place and re-route the afterlife of the mortals to gain more power, something like Odyn does with his valajar) but I think you understimate the arcane, the voids wants to corrupt a baby Titan to get the power of enter this dimension and they can't corrupt an adult one which outs them in a good place of power, besides creatures like Aluneth seem to be very powerful to the point Aegwyn couldn't control him and they have the tendency of save mortals from themself(just look at the doom machines we have in azeroth mades by the titans).

To be honest we need some arcane guy because the elves are turning toward the light and the nightborne destroyed their fountain and aren't explored too much

[MechaCThun]

I'm sorry...

But I HAVE to post this:



The "relationship" that is going to develop between Anduin + Saurfang will be that similar of Thrall + Jaina pre-vanilla WoW.

[Super Dickmann]

The "relationship" that is going to develop between Anduin + Saurfang will be that similar of Thrall + Jaina pre-vanilla WoW.

This is highly unrealistic. We all know Anduin tops in this arrangement.

[Wildberry]

How does he considiring this have anything to do with what i pointed out? Someone can consider things things and come to the conclusion they are not optimal.

The first time Saurfang doesn't do it because he actually agrees with Sylvanas' plans for war. The second time, he feels just as responsible for Teldrassil as he thinks she is.

Neither of those have anything to do with what you pointed out, nor do they have any relevance to how "optimal" the decision is.

[MikeBogina]

I'm sorry...

But I HAVE to post this:



The "relationship" that is going to develop between Anduin + Saurfang will be that similar of Thrall + Jaina pre-vanilla WoW.

Anduin has this weird thing where he tries to make friends with orcs in cells

[MechaCThun]

Anduin has this weird thing where he tries to make friends with orcs in cells

Oh god, we had the warning signs even back THEN...

[MikeBogina]

Oh god, we had the warning signs even back THEN...

He's a predator!!!

[Wildberry]

And the action of considering itself has also no implication of your suggestion that being it more optimal. Is everything that you consider in the past the most optimal thing now? Talk about character devolopment!

I brought up Saurfang's considerations when you said:

Why challange someone to Mak'gora when you know she is gonna cheat?

There's nothing she's done since those two considerations that would cause Saurfang to assume she's more likely to cheat. He'd have already come to that conclusion when mulling it over before. Her cheating doesn't factor into his decision not to issue the challenge, thus the statement quoted above is irrelevant.

I dont see how challenging someone to a duel with someone you think has no honor (and Saurfang thinking that is a fact) and is almost certain she is gonna cheat is like a good option for someone that wants to go out with "good fight".

Because it accomplishes more for the Horde than killing some conscripted footman?

Also you making alot assumption too regarding "poltiical suicide", we talking about bfa lore here.

"Lore is bad" (It is, I agree), isn't a reason to dismiss the most reasonable consequence of Sylvanas hypothetically cheating.

There are valid reasons why somone like Saurfang wouldnt challange someone like Sylvanas to a mak'gora, if you like it or not

If there are, you've yet to list them. You've just claimed:
-Saurfang wants a good fight (debatable)
-Saurfang is concerned that she'll cheat (Factually incorrect considering the idea never factors into this previous considerations regarding mak'gora)
etc.

[steelballfc]

I'm sorry...

But I HAVE to post this:



The "relationship" that is going to develop between Anduin + Saurfang will be that similar of Thrall + Jaina pre-vanilla WoW.

accurate as ****

[Deleted]

So he is actually a traitor.

#TeamSylvanas

Sylvanas is the traitor and always has been. She should've been executed when she blighted Gilneas against Garrosh' orders. How quick people turn around to defend their waifu.

[Deleted]

Sylvanas is the traitor and always has been. She should've been executed when she blighted Gilneas against Garrosh' orders. How quick people turn around to defend their waifu.

Funny, it’s almost like people think Saurfang is the traitor...

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-the-cinematic!

[Super Dickmann]

Sylvanas is the traitor and always has been. She should've been executed when she blighted Gilneas against Garrosh' orders. How quick people turn around to defend their waifu.

As far as treason goes, that one is pretty fucking light as compared to being a henchman for the human king in overthrowing the Horde. All of the Mists-era leaders are traitors, but Saurfang joined Lor'themar and Baine on the higher tier of treason by actively working towards the goals of the enemy faction.

[Wildberry]

Someone doing nor not doing something has nothing to do with the perception an invidual changing over time. Again, are you that bamboozled that people change what they thougth it would best overtime? Do you seriosuly suggest Saurfang literarly couldnt develop 0 other thouhgths or feelings between then and now? Wowsie.

I've already addressed this. Sylvanas has done nothing between those considerations and now that would convince Saurfang she's more likely to cheat than he would have otherwise assumed.

The logical "what is much more of a benifit for the horde" is not at debate here. If Saurfang always did what is the best for the horde in a "Logical" way we wouldnt have this conservasation in the first place. We debating about the character Saurfang would do.

Considering Saurfang has prided himself on his willingness to kill and die for the Horde, this goes beyond being the logical thing to do, it should also (and is demonstrated to be) an appealing option for Saurfang.

Im not dismissing it, i legit think that such manuever from Sylvanas would not have a larger political impact.

Mak'gora is institutionalized, a good chunk of the Horde is already skeptical of Sylvanas and Saurfang is a cultural giant among the Horde. If she were to even give off the impression of having cheated, there's really only one way for it to end.

Thinking someone has no honor at all it seems to include that but if you want to semantic about it ok point taken.

We can go ahead and lump "likely to cheat" in with his consideration of her "having no honor." That doesn't change the fact that it doesn't enter into his thought process.

[Spray]

I'm extremely happy.

They're doing their best to finally do away with this Alliance vs Horde nonsense, which stopped making sense even before MoP.

The factional conflict in MoP was more about Garrosh v. World rather than Horde vs Alliance. After so many years, the underlying motive for AvH war is so stretched out that it's hardly enjoyable. It made sense in WC3, Orcs were a new tribe, they wanted land, they fucked with NElves and found allies in Kalimdor. They made a ragtag alliance with other races with problems and got along, years passed, animosities kind of evaporated, just move on already and remove the stupid faction restrictions.

Make PvP accessible in form of "kind of Caverns of Time" battlegrounds and arenas, world PvP for those who still want it, there is a way to make it all work.

Leave the cities as is, but allow visitors and every interaction like we're all part of one big family.

#RacesNotFactions

[Evilfish]

Leave the cities as is, but allow visitors and every interaction like we're all part of one big family.
#RacesNotFactions

And after that be really amazed that everyone else left.

Make a hashtag about that.

[Stormdash]

I have liked Sylvanas from the time I started playing and from digging through the lore, other than I lament this direction they've taken her character since Stormheim on, and I think it's a 100% metaphysical certainty she would cheat if forced to stake her command of the Horde on single combat. Can't imagine Saurfang wouldn't have equal certainty. Which is not to say he shouldn't still have done it. I mean, as an RP choice I'm guessing there are more than a few players who wished they could have dropped the duel flag on her right there in Darkshore even though after the post-Legion player character lore-nerfhammer we'd have no chance.

[Deleted]

Why is "cheating" in mak'gora even a consideration?
They can use magic all they want. Sylvanas would banshee her way to victory in about a couple seconds: power level alone makes mak'gora a silly consideration.
Saurfang and silliness may go hand in hand as things stand, but horde-wise there is no scenario under which mak'gora deposes her of power or popularity.

[KaPe]

Why is "cheating" in mak'gora even a consideration?

Because that's supposedly the reason why Thrall is now a depressed old wreck instead of actually doing something. Also because otherwise, big muscly orcs would lose to spellcasters.

Also, both of the last Mak'goras had "cheating" which decided the outcome and that was with the supposedly honorable combatants. With Sylvanas, it's pretty much a given.

E: Also, with all the talk about Saurfang, people largely ignore another thing. The Alliance, which is supposedly winning according to post Zuldazar Horde dialogue, is almost out of trained soldiers and its' leader states that they cannot defeat Sylvanas on their own. I mean... what? Why do we never hear about Horde running out of troops? Why wasn't this a factor after Horde's civil war? Why isn't Sylvanas forced to raise Horde soldiers as Forsaken just to keep up with the casualties? Why is Alliance - once again - nerfed, so the Horde's story can safely continue?

[Deleted]

Because that's supposedly the reason why Thrall is now a depressed old wreck instead of actually doing something. Also because otherwise, big muscly orcs would lose to spellcasters.

Also, both of the last Mak'goras had "cheating" which decided the outcome and that was with the supposedly honorable combatants. With Sylvanas, it's pretty much a given.

Thrall's self doubts are another issue altogether. It's not about cheating: it's his failure as a leader (he chose Hellscream after all). Far as I know there is no confirmation of "cheating" about Thrall anyway: it's playerbase speculation.

Yes, Sylvanas wouldn't much care for cheating. And that's working on a hypothetical that would depose her of popularity: she cheats > the horde has a "honorable" reason to rebel.
But I don't think she even needs to resort to any cheating at all. Which, I think, renders the premise of challenging her pointless. Does any horde character stand a chance against her in combat 1 on 1? consider that she is capable of standing long against what amounts to a semi-god (Malfurion).

[Pillerina]

I'm extremely happy.

They're doing their best to finally do away with this Alliance vs Horde nonsense, which stopped making sense even before MoP.

The factional conflict in MoP was more about Garrosh v. World rather than Horde vs Alliance. After so many years, the underlying motive for AvH war is so stretched out that it's hardly enjoyable. It made sense in WC3, Orcs were a new tribe, they wanted land, they fucked with NElves and found allies in Kalimdor. They made a ragtag alliance with other races with problems and got along, years passed, animosities kind of evaporated, just move on already and remove the stupid faction restrictions.

Make PvP accessible in form of "kind of Caverns of Time" battlegrounds and arenas, world PvP for those who still want it, there is a way to make it all work.

Leave the cities as is, but allow visitors and every interaction like we're all part of one big family.

#RacesNotFactions

It's funny, I see a lot of people calling for this, and a move away from focus on raiding which were the exact two things that annihilated SWTOR.
Faction identity all the way, make mirror raids where we invade capital cities and kill enemy leaders as bosses etc, one can dream.