Is ret actually that bad

[Johnmatrix]

I disagree. I never enjoyed Ret before BFA. I love it now. The new animations and sounds for each ability are awesome. I love tearing into large groups of mobs while doing World Quests and cutting them down to pieces. Very satisfying gameplay.

Did you play in Legion? Bfa ret is just a stripped down version of Legion ret. They just removed all cleave, most of the aoe, fun mechanics from Ashbringer, tier bonuses that made the rotation smoother and the fast-paced gameplay of Crusade with massive duration.

[Vintersol]

Legion was okay for Cleave, and Wrath of course didn't have an issue. But I Don't know so much about WoD.

WoD ret was literally like MoP ret with some changes, but albeit the damage numbers it was miles ahead than the current iteration.

[Kuriyama]

Did you play in Legion? Bfa ret is just a stripped down version of Legion ret. They just removed all cleave, most of the aoe, fun mechanics from Ashbringer, tier bonuses that made the rotation smoother and the fast-paced gameplay of Crusade with massive duration.

^ This.

I hated Legion Ret but at least it had cleave and decent AoE. BfA took away everything that made Legion Ret tolerable and gave us almost nothing back in return. Oh what's that? Hammer of Wrath? Yeah. As a f***ing talent. That's like thanking someone for punching you in the gut.

WoTLK and WoD were my favourite times for Ret. Absolute Gods in ICC and they were just so FUN in WoD with emp Divine Storm, exclusive TV/FV animations and they were just so fast. I remember raiding Highmaul and I was literally smashing buttons. Now with the downtime....it's the polar opposite. (Also quick shout out to WoD Prot which was also amazing. Our first Imperator kill was me and another Prot Paladin. Holy Wrath was AWESOME for adds).

[Faesroll]

Did you play in Legion? Bfa ret is just a stripped down version of Legion ret. They just removed all cleave, most of the aoe, fun mechanics from Ashbringer, tier bonuses that made the rotation smoother and the fast-paced gameplay of Crusade with massive duration.

The one thing I don't miss is Legion's Crusade. My fingers still have ptsd from the button mashing fest that crusade was. Other than that, why they removed blessed hammers, divine tempest and judgement cleave is beyond me. Especially given how absurd some other classes AOE damage is.

[Wrecktangle]

Legion was okay for Cleave, and Wrath of course didn't have an issue. But I Don't know so much about WoD.

Emp DS + FV was literally insane passive cleave during our fairly respectable ST rotation.

The one thing I don't miss is Legion's Crusade. My fingers still have ptsd from the button mashing fest that crusade was. Other than that, why they removed blessed hammers, divine tempest and judgement cleave is beyond me. Especially given how absurd some other classes AOE damage is.

I have used an AHK macro since WotLK due to RSI's. It actually worked extraordinarily well during Crusade. Rather than mash, you simply hold a key down and dance your fingers to another key and hold that down. It's almost like playing piano and gets buttons off a lot quicker with a lot less risk for error. That and no more RSI's thank GOD.

[Deleted]

I'm gonna come out and say i don't think it's that bad. I think it's a numbers problem for the most part.

Righteous verdict could do with working with DS as well though.

[Celebhil]

Consecration should probably be baseline and the aoe talents involved with that row should approximately be wake of ashes, divine judgement stacks applying aoe splash instead of buff to singular damage and a new a talent that rewards timing consecration with divine storms

[lollermittens]

I benched my 371 Ret for my 369 DH Havoc for Mythic Raiding and Vengeance for M+... it's not even on the same level.

The utility I brought in raiding hasn't changed much (it's nice to dispel offensive spells from a couple in raids but it's not like Ret brings anything to the table besides Wisdom) but the damage is not even the same. Ret just can't keep up. If other classes are playing good DPS classes (Ele Shaman/ Hunter/ Balance Druid/ Lock/ Mage/ Rogue), you can't compete because of the class design. Uldir is very much anti-melee and very few bosses favor pure ST damage.

In PvP, it's a different story. I believe Ret in 2s with a competent partner is very difficult to take down but the mobility is God awful. Do yourself a favor and wait until some more tools are added or in 8.1, with the new Azerite trait that'll proc your Divine Storm automatically if you use some attack. Until then, it's collecting dust.

Oh and Prot Pally is supposed to be this immovable tank but feels squishy as fuck compared to my DH (yes my DH).

[Mashanerz]

While your analysis is true, your original statement that Ret has cleave (let alone good) is mistaken. We have quite literally no cleave. We have a ST rotation that every 45s hits more than 1 target a singular time. That's not cleave.

Don't worry, I'm here to help. Paladins have an ability called Divine Storm, it's functionally similar to Templar's Verdict however it will outperform it when hitting 3 or more enemies.

[jimmy valmer]

Which dumbass at blizzard thought it was a good idea to bring back iconic spells as talents. Hammer of wrath should be baseline like demonic circle and shadow fury.

A recentish allcraft episode had asmon and others thanking blizzard for being in touch with the community and making changes accordingly. Bull fucking shit. That couldn't be further from the truth. Just trying to suck up to blizzard.

[cryfearlol]

How do i need to change the designer class. Which will adequately approach the problem, in a next expansion. There is nothing you can save, because global rework will not be.

[Gracin]

I have been maining ret since late BC, and while I have played/raided on other classes throughout the expacs, I have ALWAYS considered ret my main. Here's my point of view on the subject of Ret atm. I have yet to even finish leveling my paladin, because as soon as the prepatch hit and changes were made the spec to me felt absolutely horrid. There seems to be a lot of argument if the spec is "not that bad" or I see a lot of "you're over-reacting", but here's what I'm noticing. The gameplay is lacking in so many areas, and I honestly feel like the spec has just been thrown aside with plans to do a complete overhaul. This though both pissses me off and saddens me, because in the past we have had fairly decent iterations of Ret. My favorite being MoP(with the t16 fix), followed up shortly by the WoD version, and then WotLK.

If you're into the numbers, hell even if you're not, you cannot possibly argue that Ret isn't at the bottom of the list. Now I'm not saying your anecdotal "well I'm number 5 dps in my group" is a lie. What I will say is that you're either running with one of the other bottom tier dps specs, or the other dps you're playing with are far from utilizing their capabilities. The numbers are there in black and pink for all to see, our numbers are a shit show and looking at what's on the horizon for 8.1 it isn't getting any better.

[cryfearlol]

Yes, this is really a problem. Bad reviews about ret from different people (from different regions).

[Celebhil]

Ret felt "ok" while leveling, but i had the highlord ring handy. As soon as I hit 115 and dumped set bonuses the pacing of the rotation became slower and the damage plummeted. And thats how ive felt about ret in general during the last 3 expansions. Ok at first, but damage scaling nosedives towards the endgame. Even in raiding it feels that way too; even if i had good gear, sure i do better but compared to every other class the dps gap widens. Blizzard needs to reevaluate the #'s. The might not be so horrid if the divine storm and templars verdict hit significantly harder and our secondary stats had more meaningful impact on that.

[Super Kami Dende]

Ret is fine. It is literally middle of pack. Meaning it is actually one of the more balanced class Specs

Just remember the Classes at the Top and Bottom are the Specs not balanced correctly.

[Eon Drache]

Ret is fine. It is literally middle of pack. Meaning it is actually one of the more balanced class Specs

Just remember the Classes at the Top and Bottom are the Specs not balanced correctly.

Your posts contradict each other. Where is ret "Middle of the pack" because logs suggest otherwise. I'll leave this here for you. These are the Uldir logs. Ret is at the bottom.
This holds true except for cases the player got really lucky with procs (Retribution anyone?). Othewise the top 99% skilled players and under ALL have retribution at the bottom.

[Poundcake]

For raiding, ret is fine.
For m+, Ret is not fine.

We are the least desirable dps in m+ as it currently stands, we have the shittiest AOE damage. We don't provide CR or stealth or anything interesting.

I went prot for this expansion after seeing how undesirable ret is. and I managed to get my DH to 370ish ilvl and their aoe is king.

Ret is NOT fine for raiding. Look at the post right above you. We have ZERO cleave damage, one of the worst sustained aoe in the game, one of the worst mobility abilities in the game, this class is not fine in any content.

[Celebhil]

and....that has been the trend for the last 3 expansions, just so happens they manage to implement and cut dumbass mechanics (hi holy wrath) each time but not enough care into making the numbers count dps wise.

[Faesroll]

Ret felt "ok" while leveling, but i had the highlord ring handy. As soon as I hit 115 and dumped set bonuses the pacing of the rotation became slower and the damage plummeted. And thats how ive felt about ret in general during the last 3 expansions. Ok at first, but damage scaling nosedives towards the endgame. Even in raiding it feels that way too; even if i had good gear, sure i do better but compared to every other class the dps gap widens. Blizzard needs to reevaluate the #'s. The might not be so horrid if the divine storm and templars verdict hit significantly harder and our secondary stats had more meaningful impact on that.

TV hit even harder? It's already 40-45% of our damage. The problem is poor AoE/cleave and downtime.

[Deleted]

"i would do anything for love" - history repeats itself, again.

the standard historical oversensitivity in ret numbers design with some blind spots in artifact ability compensation like cleave. current meta (DP) is slot machine, either Napalm God or zippo lighter for AoE, ST is as always solid, and at least ret sustained damage (rets burst dependence was main issue until Legion) was sustained.
but offheal and medium utility (no BR) dont compensate for cleave/AoE.
Crusade requires 32.5seconds duration to be competetive, Inq value decreases exponentially with haste...

esp. to mention btw the power decrease at lvl115 is inferior design, since 8.0 talents and azerite gear dont fully compensate the loss of Legos and artifact, rota felt (and still sometimes feels - even with an mythic+10 380 Rezans Eye and 26% haste base) awful, cold turkey, hm? its just counterintuitive to RPGs core mechanic to lose power when gaining xp, cuz xp inherently means to have grown.

but personally the return of HoW (should be baseline without any discussion) saved 8.0 ret for me. although may be Havoc simply sexy, Outlaw finally more subtle than sublety, my personal pref still is ret. but i cant forgive bzzd for electing Frost DK as new disco king - may i have Divine Tempest back? ret felt like a Pink Floyd lightshow on xtc in Legion, i would do anything for love!

since my retreat from competetive scene its only weekly hc + chest+10, where ret is ok like almost every other class and if the slot machine god is in favor pole positon awaits the faithful.

late edit: HoW animation desperatly requires an update. its a fatality, a finishing move, its the ultimate retribution