Mythic Fetid: Arcane VS Fire

[TyrianFC]

TLDR Summary at bottom of post.

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Currently progg'ing on Mythic fetid and want to discuss Arcane VS Fire on the fight. So, some background info before talking about Arcane/Fire specifically: The whole fight seems to revolve around these two points:

1 - Maximising burst DPS on Corruption Corpuscle during the 15 second window they're casting Enticing Essence.

With 1.15 mill hp and a 15 sec cast, we'll looking at ~76k dps from each person to kill the add before Enticing Essence completes. Since guilds are using anywhere from ~4-6 assigned dps per add (depending on gear / skill / spec / classes available etc), the individual DPS requirements from each add-team member are anywhere from ~13k-19k depending on size.


2 - Minimising the effects Stomp's knockback has on your ability to perform (1) during that window. First we should note when the stomps happen while adds are active or about to spawn:

Corruption Corpuscle 1: The Stomp occurs near the start of the Enticing Essence cast
Corruption Corpuscle 2: The Stomp occurs after Enticing Essence is cast (add should be dead by this point)
Corruption Corpuscle 3: The Stomp occurs near the start of the Enticing Essence Cast (some a few seconds variance: sometimes its right at the start and sometimes its midway through)

Therefore: Stomp positioning management is particularly important for Adds 1 and 3, where the Stomp will always interfere with your DPS if you havent pre-positioned favourably. Stomp positioning is probably more important for Add 1, since many guilds are using Hero on Add 3 anyway.

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With that in mind, im interested to compare Arcane vs Fire:

Cooldowns:

- Fire can either do Boss on pull + Add 2 + Boss or Add 4 (but seems like most guilds will ignore Add 4 and zerg the boss - will depend on your guilds strat)
--or Add 1 and Add 3

- Arcane can either do Boss on pull + Add 2 + Boss or Add 4
- or Add 1 and Add 3

= So Fire having a 2min cd vs 1.5min for Arcane, doesnt really change the two options available for CD usage. (Though its true Arc could squeeze an extra AP in on a big add or boss etc during the fight - but im ignoring those scenarios under assumption our top priority is getting adds down, not overall fight damage)

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Both specs are cramming into their burst window with:

- Rune of Power
- Balefire branch
- (with Battle potions either being used with cd's or on difficult adds where no cd's are available and you're trying to compensate a little - will depend on your guilds strat and gear/skill to determine where you use those)
- Specific Azerite Traits (Ill mention this here, because plenty of ppl are choosing generic traits available to all specs to minimise reforging costs etc. However: Master Blaster, using Fire as an example, allows extra cramming into the time-crucual window of Enticing Essence... for Mages who might otherwise be using Dagger in the Back because they're keeping Azerite Traits intentionally so as to avoid reforging between encounters)

-


My experience with pumping burst during this specific ~15 second window is:

- Fire reliably performs strongly with CD's, and is less affected by Stomp (You can cast most of your Combustion rotation while moving/knocked back, as long as you pre-cast ROP before a stomp) and less affected when needing to move for debuff management to avoid spreading/stacking etc.
- Arcane reliable performs strongly, potentially very strongly (with sweet 100k AB crits), but is more prone to error and more punishing for mistakes (aka more important players position between for stomp/use POM during stomps to keep pumping casts out etc)
- Without CD, Arcane can still use Charged up and do a Burn Phase (albeit without AP).

But when considering the full Fire, fight does have some key points worth bringing up:

- Fire will be able to take advantage of execute range of the big add reliably each cycle (it'll be pretty close to ~30% after you've killed your small add)
- Minor cleave via ignite spread from big add->boss during above time
- Great execute damage (and mobility) during the -30% nuke phase of the boss, when its taking extra dam (a bigger deal when compared to Arcane mages who only use cd on Add 1 + 3 and not on boss at end in execute)


Please feel free to correct any mistakes I made, offer any points or insight into things missed or not considered. But my question to Mages here is:

Do you choose to do the fight as Arcane or Fire? Have you tried both personally and decided for yourself to reach this conclusion (or did you just look at ~80% of top logs being Arcane and stuck with that without trying the other first hand). And how would you rate the viability of each spec in each of the two different scenarios:

1 - when only considering killing small adds (still taking into account Stomp and how it affects the fight)
2 - when considering the whole fight (and taking into account spec specific perks even outside of small adds like ignite spreading/executes etc)

The conclusion ive come to thus far is that both specs are perfectly viable, with Arcane potentially being somewhat better on adds (yet Fire can still do respectable damage with CD), but with a slightly higher skill lvl /much more punishing on ppl who make small mistakes (ie: getting knocked out of position as arcane, or forgetting to POM AB during stomp or Charged up before a small add VS fire mage doing full combustion rotation while moving and unaffected). However, Fire can arguably be justified as coming out ahead when considering the full fight (which will depend on your guild strat, when you hero, whether you use CD on boss or adds etc)

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TLDR Summary of above:

- Fire is more reliable/consistent with small adds (everything always crits during combustion, every time), less punishing on mistakes and more accommodating with superior mobility when needing to move for debuff management - and is arguably better overall when considering the whole fight (executes, ignite spreading to big add etc etc -this will depending your guild strat / cd usage etc)
- Arcane is potentially better on small adds, with potential for variance from good->amazing with huge ~100k AB crits, but is far more punishing for even slight mistakes / player error when adds spawn (eg getting knocked back unfavourable on add 1+3 / forgetting to pom or use charged up before an add cycle starts etc)
- Both can potentially be viable, pending player skill and guild strat (when you hero, cd management, who else is on your add team and when they use their cd's etc) and personal preferences (how much you value mobility, executes etc)

== Both have potential to be perfectly fine, pending the above three points. Personal preference.

Interested to hear whether Mages agree with the above. And thoughts comments observations etc...

[Lollis]

Fire allows me to throw my meteor in line with the spawn timer, so that even when the stomp occurs I can still be doing damage. With Shimmer however the positioning overall isn't much of an issue in either spec but I simply prefer fire because it is a much more interesting playstyle.

Arcane is better in regards to the small adds but as far as I am concerned, the difference between arcane and fire damage isn't worth the absolute dogshit gameplay that comes with pressing arcane blast for literally >70% of your damage.

If the difference between a kill is you being arcane vs being fire, then there are other things that are going wrong than just a little change in dps.

[Aphrel]

Arc does more dmg without cds than fire, you can still pop rune and spam rank 4 abs for 10-15sec. Sure your overall dps will be dogshit but who cares, as long as 3 spawn of eggs dies the fight is over anyway.
Since hero is popped on 3rd add. that rly isnt very important to have cds up for tbh. With arc you can pop ap on first corpuscle and 2nd mutated mass. Then have it up for the last boss burst to kill him be4 wave 4.
IM leaning towards arc being better.

[Slothybabe]

I've honestly found fire to be more reliable. With combustion, you KNOW your damage during rune will be consistent, 100% of the time. I've had times with arcane, where I haven't crit 6 abs in a row, feelsbadman. If you aren't critting abs, you aren't beating fire.

[Alphatorg]

Corpuscle damage is the only thing that matters on this fight, so just pick the spec that deals most on them.
My guess is that would be Arcane, since I assume you deal more damage with RoP + 4charge AB spam than Fire does without Combustion.

p.s. Shimmer + Displacement almost negate stomp entirely so at worst you lose 1 GCD.

I've honestly found fire to be more reliable. With combustion, you KNOW your damage during rune will be consistent, 100% of the time. I've had times with arcane, where I haven't crit 6 abs in a row, feelsbadman. If you aren't critting abs, you aren't beating fire.

AP should give you enough damage on the spawns that you kill them reliably regardless of crit luck. Even in progression I sometimes had them die before my AP ran out.

[klaps_05]

takes a few pulls or 1 video to learn how to handle stomp as arcane. if itemized equally arcane is unmatched on mini adds not just for burst window but overall. as you are progressing you are most likely doing CDs on 1st, hero 2nd and cds on 3rd, which is why arcane is best - 1st and 3rd you have AP, 2nd you have hero and can pump nearly 10-11 ABs if you are barely making the mark.

Also, the mini add dmg is not just about killing it in the window it casts - you want to kill it as early as possible so people can comfortably switch to the big mass.

[Deleted]

Both of them do really well, so just pick the one you prefer. In my raid we have split who uses cd on what add, so i use AP on start, 2nd small add and BL, potions for 3rd with AP ready while we killing big add. But we have killed it quite a few times and dmg is no issue at all.

[TyrianFC]

I've honestly found fire to be more reliable. With combustion, you KNOW your damage during rune will be consistent, 100% of the time. I've had times with arcane, where I haven't crit 6 abs in a row, feelsbadman. If you aren't critting abs, you aren't beating fire.

Basically this yeah. Fire will reliably deliver strong damage every single time, because everything always crits with combustion, every time. Arcane (with big crits) does freaking amazing and blows Fire away in those cases, but without those crits in other cases you wont be very impressed.

I tried both and my personal preference was Fire - because I liked the consistency for add damage.

[HCLM]

Both spec are good enough. So just take the spec you are more cimfortable with.

[Lollis]

Also have to say that frenetic speed is very useful on this fight for repositioning, especially when you consider that there are situations when you can't really use your blink because of debuffs on you or others and it doesn't have the issue of dropping stacks like with arcane barrage.

[Hellshout]

snip

I killed Fetid on both Arcane and Fire 1 week apart, 2 Archive and 1 Dagger on both specs. On Arcane I got 95 parse and on Fire I got 19.
I managed to do 1 mill more dmg with Arcane than with Fire. I noticed you can burst small adds much harder with Fire, but come big adds you are gambling HU procs, while on Arcane you still have strong AB.
Movement wise, Fire hands down. The fight was so smooth, everything worked out with Scorch moving so you don't feel you move to much without casting anything.
Arcane has some small micro management, I found best to have 20-30% mana for the first small add, then evo then move to the big one. Don't delay stuff too much, I used AP for first small add, second big add, third big add and boss at the end. WATCH OUT for stomp before you Evo, happened a lot being oom from adds and then Evo-ing just to get into a stomp.

Good luck

[Tyriall]

this is a very interesting post. We are about to start on fetid mythic and I main arcane. I agree its very punishing and almost impossible to recover if you screw up the rotation. Will watch this post caefuly for more tips

[Polarthief]

TBH there's so few movement when the fight goes right (and it's over before you know it) that Arcane doesn't play as bad as people think it does on this fight.

Assuming you have the "Magic Add" in the back, you can line yourself (and up to 2 other Mages) on the back wall every time (if an add is in the back) then just start blasting away. It's how my guild with 3 Mages did it, me being one of them.

The most important point to remember: You don't play Arcane to do damage to the boss; your boss damage will be dogshit since you (might, not even guaranteed) only get one AP on the boss. Assuming you get a pull AP, you then use your last 2 APs on 2nd set and 3rd set big add. Plus there will likely be times you're near OoM and have to conserve quite a bit. Playing Fire might feel nicer with the mobility and let you damage the boss better, but all that ever matters is add damage. Even without critting, I don't see Fire ever doing more damage to adds more consistently than Arcane.

One other thing I'd like to point out is that if you're holding Combustion for adds, you lose a Combustion due to the 2m cooldown. You can either do pull+2nd adds+near the end, or 1st+3rd adds (Kindling might actually be pretty decent on this fight for this reason, though you then lose Meteor).

Again, this is just what I've found. I remember trying Fire and just not seeing the add damage like I did with Arcane, as much as I hate Arcane.

Also have to say that frenetic speed is very useful on this fight for repositioning, especially when you consider that there are situations when you can't really use your blink because of debuffs on you or others and it doesn't have the issue of dropping stacks like with arcane barrage.

The only time you can't Blink, assuming you have proper positioning (especially for Mages), is when you have to go to a front door add from the back of the room (or vice versa if you're doing the opposite), or to get back into positioning because adds are dead. You should never need to do this once when there's no adds up though, even if you have 2 other Mages and all of you have Putrid Paroxysm.

this is a very interesting post. We are about to start on fetid mythic and I main arcane. I agree its very punishing and almost impossible to recover if you screw up the rotation. Will watch this post caefuly for more tips

That's been true for Arcane in general though since as long as I can remember, and not just this fight. As long as you know when to press AP and you always hold at least one RoP for adds, you should be fine. For adds, assuming the Magic Add is in the back, just plat yourself at the back wall so you can be ready for the add spawn. If you can't, be super quick on that Shimmer trigger finger once the shockwave stomp happens (at least on the first add). Try to place RoP just as you're being knocked back to maximize uptime on the add.

[Deiae]

It might be easier at this point to advice people to just play two sets of adds and ignore the third - given how much gear and character power has progressed for everyone (380 and more, probably 10 stacks of the reorigination array) -, three heal it and therefore just fit in your cds as often as possible which will likely mean that none of them will line up to be used on the adds.
If the adds spawn in locations that would force any of your three teams to have to move a lot, and thus lose uptime and dps on them, you can choose to reset the boss fight - like two corpuscles in the back or in the front.

[MrExcelion]

It might be easier at this point to advice people to just play two sets of adds and ignore the third - given how much gear and character power has progressed for everyone (380 and more, probably 10 stacks of the reorigination array) -, three heal it and therefore just fit in your cds as often as possible which will likely mean that none of them will line up to be used on the adds.
If the adds spawn in locations that would force any of your three teams to have to move a lot, and thus lose uptime and dps on them, you can choose to reset the boss fight - like two corpuscles in the back or in the front.

With the additional nerfs next week, I would absolutely recommend guilds spare a few progression pulls for 2 add wave Fetid, especially with Vantus Runes. Pop all cds first wave. Hero + pot (if needed) second. I think this next incarnation of Fetid is actually going to get pugged cross-realm as it's logistically simpler than Vectis/Zek now. Assign everybody a spot and you're good to go. I honestly thought this fight was going to be the third boss in Uldir based off the DJ, but the tuning was way off and it had a lot of RNG that has been since addressed

re: fire or arcane, either is fine

[Deiae]

With the additional nerfs next week, I would absolutely recommend guilds spare a few progression pulls for 2 add wave Fetid, especially with Vantus Runes. Pop all cds first wave. Hero + pot (if needed) second. I think this next incarnation of Fetid is actually going to get pugged cross-realm as it's logistically simpler than Vectis/Zek now. Assign everybody a spot and you're good to go. I honestly thought this fight was going to be the third boss in Uldir based off the DJ, but the tuning was way off and it had a lot of RNG that has been since addressed

re: fire or arcane, either is fine

While that is true that is not even what I meant. I wasn't refering to any upcoming nerfs. Look up speed kills for fetid and corresponding compositions. The compositions and gear those groups wear isn't necessarily standing out from any other guild (~380 isn't anything special). It is completely viable to just go "face". Gear and Uldir stacks are sufficient to kill the adds without saving cds for them as long as your are positioning correctly. If you save cds you postpone them and lose out on additional uses or uses that overlap better with pots/heroism.
You'd use hero either on pull or in the end - specifically not for any adds as it isn't needed.
Doing all this keeps the fight short and as you are only dealing with two waves of adds you are keeping chances to make mistakes low.