Bellular is wrong and his kind of mentality is what is wrong with WoW

[Onikaroshi]

Even if it wasn't raiding that made the subscribers stay, the whole game was significantly different, and titanforging/rewards still apply to quests and dungeons these days as well...

Blizzard wouldn't be banking on Classic if they were certainly nobody cared about the old days, it's not just Nostalgia, it's just gonna get a lot of unsubbed players back as well because the game changed into a vastly different direction, especially after 6.0.

And now you hit the nail on the head, it's the systems, not the raiding. Legion had some really great raids, hell WoD had a really great raid, but man have the systems sucked for the past few expansions.

[Drakain]

I think Bellular argument makes more sense than yours. “Fun repeatable content” is too vague to really mean anything. Do you mean like rift key stones? Mythic pluses are already like that? PvP? Fun to who? I don’t think cosmetic stuff is the answer either. The answer is fresh content.

[ro9ue]

WoWs repeatable content isn't fun anymore because the vessel you use to play through it - your class; has been neutered beyond belief.

BfAs failures begin and end with Class Design and the complete and utter lack of character progression past level 100.

This is my view as well. Why play a game if the game isn't fun? If a game is fun for its own sake, I don't care about 'rewards'. The actual 'reward' is the gameplay itself. I'll give you an example. Overwatch. I have no interest in the skins, sprays, etc. But I just keep playing it. Because the game is fun.

WoW, even if I want some cosmetics, I can't play because it's not fun to do so. Classes are completely shit right now. Azerite armor is garbage.

The GAME needs to be priority 1. If that's solid, then people will play for its own sake.

[kamuimac]

10/10 would agree. I had a friend who started in legion. He wanted to have the m+15 artifact skin achv. We started doing m+ to achieve this goal. At one point (above +10 where things got a bit tricky) he simply went "i hate this fucking shit game i don't even udnerstand why i'm always dying...my dmg is also bad...fuck this shit im outa here". He wanted to quit. I told him he has to read a guide, watch a video. We could practice on the dummies and that i would teach him. "nah i don'T want to read a stupid guide or go full pro mode like you do. i don't enjoy that hardcore playstyle"

And now he clears the wq everytime they appear.

I absolutely don't understand it. I hope blizz finds a solution to encourage people to improve while playing the game so that they have fun doing harder things so that we all get a better time.

Your friend was not wrong . Game that requires outside sources for learning how to Play properly is shit game with shitty in game systems.

[Lord Pebbleton]

Class Design is not the problem ... everyone claims it is but remember "the good old days" where classes where so much better? But in fact they were the same garbage and 2 years ago everyone was shitting around about classes the same way they do now.

The problem is that you all grew old and didn't realise. The gameplay was old when the game came out and there was always a class design to shit about but you had enough time to hang around with your friends and do alot of stuff. Now there is no time left -> no real time to hang around with your buddies -> suddenly the game sucks and it's the class design that's the root of all evil.

No it's not. some classes are bad, some are good, most are playable just like it has always been. Stop this "game only sucks because class design is shit". The game sucks because you're not enjoying it. Period.

"The game sucks because you're not enjoying it" well I mean... That's how it works.
I don't know about the rest of the world, but I have more or less the same free time I had in Legion; with BfA I feel that a large part of said time is wasted. The last time I felt this way was WoD. No good signs.

[kamuimac]

And now you hit the nail on the head, it's the systems, not the raiding. Legion had some really great raids, hell WoD had a really great raid, but man have the systems sucked for the past few expansions.

It didnt. The only reason you say this is because you werent burned out yet back then . Raid in those expansions were as boring and as repetitive as ever

[Onikaroshi]

It didnt. The only reason you say this is because you werent burned out yet back then . Raid in those expansions were as boring and as repetitive as ever

NH and BrF are pretty highly regarded, not just by me (I actually didn't like BrF) but by the community.

[Thestuff1992]

WoWs repeatable content isn't fun anymore because the vessel you use to play through it - your class; has been neutered beyond belief.

BfAs failures begin and end with Class Design and the complete and utter lack of character progression past level 100.

This is pretty much it for me. I can play through bad content like islands and even spam it if my class is fun to play. Ret/holy is so boring it’s actually insane. Even compared to legion they’re boring which is just last expansion. These two were better in WoD as well. I’m sure there’s people out there that love 3 seconds of downtime and a really slow rotation but jesus it’s so boring.

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It didnt. The only reason you say this is because you werent burned out yet back then . Raid in those expansions were as boring and as repetitive as ever

Not really true. Some raids were bad but most were good. I personally liked Antorus and NH from legion. Antorus had some boring bosses but was overall fun especially the last two. BRF is regarded as one of the best raids in the game by plenty. It was long, it had really good bosses like furnace/BH/etc.

Both had bad raids though. HFC wasn’t that good, ToS is probably one of the worst raids to date due to the overuse of the same mechanic and amount of nerfs each boss had to get.

[Mazinger-Z]

WoWs repeatable content isn't fun anymore because the vessel you use to play through it - your class; has been neutered beyond belief.

BfAs failures begin and end with Class Design and the complete and utter lack of character progression past level 100.

Class design the rickety bridge upon which it all lays, but the rest of it are the arthritic elephants with irritable bowel syndrome trying to cross it.

Even if the classes were fun, the depth of the game is gone.

I only earn gold through quests.

The economy is a wreck in part because professions are a wreck.

The only things worth purchasing are materials for consumables or consumables themselves.

All rewards are now RNG-based or so grindy that the emotional reward for obtaining it no longer feels equitable to the work put in (because the game is boring on its own now because of the gameplay design.).

The only glue holding it together at this point is that the polish, artistically, is leagues above other games.

At this point, a Korean MMO with some competent English-dubbing and no terrible micro-ts could replace this.

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Your friend was not wrong . Game that requires outside sources for learning how to Play properly is shit game with shitty in game systems.

This is practically every game now though.

Look at GW2. Look at something like Warframe.

Game developers are used to developing systems and relying on players to share and document the "how to" part.

[elynos]

Class design the rickety bridge upon which it all lays, but the rest of it are the arthritic elephants with irritable bowel syndrome trying to cross it.

Even if the classes were fun, the depth of the game is gone.

I only earn gold through quests.

The economy is a wreck in part because professions are a wreck.

The only things worth purchasing are materials for consumables or consumables themselves.

All rewards are now RNG-based or so grindy that the emotional reward for obtaining it no longer feels equitable to the work put in (because the game is boring on its own now because of the gameplay design.).

The only glue holding it together at this point is that the polish, artistically, is leagues above other games.

At this point, a Korean MMO with some competent English-dubbing and no terrible micro-ts could replace this.

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This is practically every game now though.

Look at GW2. Look at something like Warframe.

Game developers are used to developing systems and relying on players to share and document the "how to" part.

Imagine being this dumb

[roboscorcher]

I think he's mostly right, we need better rewards. But a gear's skin is only half of the reward. We also need powers that promote progression.

Artifacts were great because they had awesome skins AND powers. Powering them up translated directly to player power. Their effects could be seen AND felt. Tier sets have the same effect: unique class look AND special set bonuses.

Azerite Armor lacks both these things. Just a bunch of bland slightly stronger pieces with powers we've already collected. No more class weapons, no more class armor.

[Craaazyyy]

Class Design is not the problem ... everyone claims it is but remember "the good old days" where classes where so much better? But in fact they were the same garbage and 2 years ago everyone was shitting around about classes the same way they do now.

The problem is that you all grew old and didn't realise. The gameplay was old when the game came out and there was always a class design to shit about but you had enough time to hang around with your friends and do alot of stuff. Now there is no time left -> no real time to hang around with your buddies -> suddenly the game sucks and it's the class design that's the root of all evil.

No it's not. some classes are bad, some are good, most are playable just like it has always been. Stop this "game only sucks because class design is shit". The game sucks because you're not enjoying it. Period.

it is the problem.. the biggest problem with current wow

and people were shitting around 2 years ago because two years ago class design was also dogshit and the game was dogshit

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Except it's not though. If class design was everything the game would of fell flat on its ugly ass face from the second the game launched, and would of floundered even further during burning crusade. So unless you want to sit there and lie to me and tell me BC's 1 button spam specs like ele shaman was the peak of class design, I think it's quite obvious theres a LOT more to the success and failure of a game than just class design. It is a part of it, but it's not the be all and end all.

it didnt because the game was new.. also there is more to class design than its pve rotation, sir

class design was also progressively getting better with time till wrath, since wrath till MoP it remained stable and after MoP it went down hard

[Mazinger-Z]

Imagine being this dumb

Well, you're living it, so that saves you the effort.

But WoW's already being replaced by a Japanese MMO with decent English dubbing and no terrible micro-ts.

Squeenix probably thinks the number increase is from the Shadowbringers announcement. I always wondered how in-tune they are with how their American rival is doing.

[oplawlz]

Talking about the most recent video of Bellulargaming titled "The WoW PROBLEM That Blizzard Doesn’t Understand: Why WoW Rewards Feel BORING!"
Basically he claims "rewards" are the problem with WoW. They feel boring.

Stuff be said, like this:
"they need to start innovating in the visual and cosmetic direction if they want people to feel their characters progress"

And ths kind of mentality is what is wrong with World of Warcraft (IMO)
WoW players are addicted to rewards and Blizzard trained people to be addicted to them.
Useless to say this is a short term thing and, to my knowledge, is not "rewards" that make people play the game on the long run.

Why this is a flawed design? (a design focused on rewards)
-What happens when Blizzard creates the "ultimate cosmetic of mass destruction everyone wants"? What happens to the rewards after that?
Its impossible to keep making a reward better than the previous one. And if they made the "ultimate" one, everything after that would feel boring...
-Whats the point in having mount number #324 or transmog #222 i ask you.
What are you supposed to do when you get the transmog you want? Stop?

------

My opinion:
Gameplay & Community > Everything else

Like @Slowpoke is a Gamer told me, what WoW needs is "fun repeatable content"
And i would add on top of that, create a design structure of gameplay that promotes the community helping eachother out.
Basically we need gameplay that will unite us.
This is mostly a product of playing in a "harsh environment" where people need the help of others. Be it information or actual help.

IMO what keeps people playing on the long term is Fame, Power, love for the gameplay and above all else, the relationships made ingame.

------

Do you agree with Bellular? This guy is a game designer...but to me he is failing when he says the problem is with the "rewards"

You have to look at both Bellular and Preach with the understanding of who they are. Preach is a hardcore nolife raider and that's all he cares about - Bellular is a super casual with no drive towards challenging gameplay.

As long as you understand that most WoW players fall solidly in the middle, both have valuable points.

[threads]

hes kind of right though? i was way more motivated to play in legion when i wanted to unlock artifact skins and collect the tier sets. now everyone in raid looks the same so no point, and weapon drops are cancerous. warfronts and pvp are the same all the gear is identical.

[elynos]

Well, you're living it, so that saves you the effort.

But WoW's already being replaced by a Japanese MMO with decent English dubbing and no terrible micro-ts.

Squeenix probably thinks the number increase is from the Shadowbringers announcement. I always wondered how in-tune they are with how their American rival is doing.

When the best thing about your game is the profession system you know you have your priorities wrong

[arr0gance]

Your opinion, not mine.

If raiding was better then ever, where is the subscription growth blizzard would be so happy to report?

Any significant growth stopped in 2009.

For any subscription model business there's something called market saturation. Market saturation is the theoretical cap to the number of people who will ever subscribe to a service. (Side note: This is analogous to a similar theory being thrown around today about "peak car." Some theorize 2017/2018 represents the last year we will see growth in the car industry sector as ride sharing services flourish and the necessity to have a car begins to wane.) WoW reached market saturation in 2010 as evidenced by nearly 8 quarters of subscriber levels remaining near-constant. The slow and steady drop off didn't begin until Cata. And even then, one of the key factors that is never discussed whenever the topic of subscriber levels comes up is the concept of churn. That is the number of new players added compared to the number of old players leaving. Stagnation in a subscriber model doesn't necessarily mean that nobody was quitting WoW. It just means the number of new players gained roughly offset the number of old players quitting.

Moreover, since Blizzard has so many different avenues of revenue generation these days it's far less important for them to disclose subscriber numbers to investors. Investors were the only reason they ever shared that information in the first place and a cursory look at ActiBlizz's stock performance (minus the recent D:I backlash) has been overwhelmingly positive. People on the internet love to look at the numbers and make half-assed arguments like, "See, look, there's the patch that released the LFG and subscribers went down 500k. So obviously the LFG is the reason people stopped subbing." These arguments don't hold up to even a brief second of critical thinking since the most important factor of churn is unknown to us: The reasons players are leaving. It could be literally anything. Yet, in the absence of substance, players love to insert their own random theories about {x} feature or {y} raid tier.

Further, it's become clear that with Blizzard's larger repertoire of revenue drivers they're happier with lower overall WoW subscribers as long as cash shop items (read in the QRs as "value added services") are being used. Seriously, just look at the reports. It's a key point in every one of them for the last two or more years. Thus, WoW's subscriber levels likely jump a bit with an expansion launch then trail off significantly until the next expansion. When you see things like Classic being developed to add intrinsic value to a WoW subscription it begins to make even more sense.

Of course, this is just speculation from one random internet troll but I'd like to think most of the presently available data supports what I'm saying.

[evogsr]

Maybe not from Bellular's video, but my take regarding rewards is along his lines.

What I mean precisely isn't rewards in the form of items, titles, and mounts. I mean rewards in terms of experiences generated. Many of those rewards existed in Vanilla because a community experience was central to it. Everyone who had experienced Vanilla and BC, even Wrath to an extent knows that this community experience started eroding through small changes and implementations of new systems.

Having recently played on a Vanilla private server, in some ways I reaffirmed that I didn't have nostalgia goggles securely strapped to my head so I can say this for sure. Completing, and helping others complete key & attunement chains felt great again. The anticipation of world pvp breaking out and sustaining for a couple of hours in a zone and discovering which players/guilds to avoid if possible adds to the excitement. Doing all of these things simultaneously is even better, and is quite a different experience than WQ/Warmode on.

In part, because certain experiences like this made the game exciting and rewarding, I believe it puts somewhat of a shadow on the tangible game rewards as we know them.

[Barnabas]

Talking about the most recent video of Bellulargaming titled "The WoW PROBLEM That Blizzard Doesn’t Understand: Why WoW Rewards Feel BORING!"
Basically he claims "rewards" are the problem with WoW. They feel boring.

Stuff be said, like this:
"they need to start innovating in the visual and cosmetic direction if they want people to feel their characters progress"

And ths kind of mentality is what is wrong with World of Warcraft (IMO)
WoW players are addicted to rewards and Blizzard trained people to be addicted to them.
Useless to say this is a short term thing and, to my knowledge, is not "rewards" that make people play the game on the long run.

Why this is a flawed design? (a design focused on rewards)
-What happens when Blizzard creates the "ultimate cosmetic of mass destruction everyone wants"? What happens to the rewards after that?
Its impossible to keep making a reward better than the previous one. And if they made the "ultimate" one, everything after that would feel boring...
-Whats the point in having mount number #324 or transmog #222 i ask you.
What are you supposed to do when you get the transmog you want? Stop?

------

My opinion:
Gameplay & Community > Everything else

Like @Slowpoke is a Gamer told me, what WoW needs is "fun repeatable content"
And i would add on top of that, create a design structure of gameplay that promotes the community helping eachother out.
Basically we need gameplay that will unite us.
This is mostly a product of playing in a "harsh environment" where people need the help of others. Be it information or actual help.

IMO what keeps people playing on the long term is Fame, Power, love for the gameplay and above all else, the relationships made ingame.

------

Do you agree with Bellular? This guy is a game designer...but to me he is failing when he says the problem is with the "rewards"

Nope it won't fix a game with major fundamental problems. Major problems like having many super boring grinds. Major problems like not really even being able to enjoy your class to at least have some immersion so the game doesn't feel like a lot of super boring grinds. Chasing cosmetics wouldn't fix anything for me at least. I'm almost at the point where i can say i remember when the game was fun but now it's just a bad game.

[Mazinger-Z]

When the best thing about your game is the profession system you know you have your priorities wrong

SWG had an amazing profession system.

The materials themselves had 'types' and you needed certain 'types' to create an item.

The various material spawns matched a type, but they also had attributes that affected the stats of the end product.

You could make a blaster that was shit using cheap material, or you could make the same blaster with better stats using rarer, higher quality materials.

Gameplay is important, but you have to have certain things to qualify as part of a genre.

At this point, there isn't much that separates WoW from Diablo. It's becoming or has become a dungeon looter.

MMOs were meant to emulate a fantasy world and inject yourself into it in a variety of roles that weren't just adventuring or killing things.