If Blizzard had reverted to the old talent system

[Dastreus]

Its horrific, and its one of the reasons why the player base isnt supporting the blizz development team the way they used to. it doesnt need to be like Path of Exile, just in depth enough to feel like our character is our own not some cookie cutter copy of who ever is leading the ranks

Look, I prefer the old talent systems, too, but copying the top raiders/guilds is exactly what people did with the old talent trees, too.

[Rotted]

As a mw monk, I can change my playstyle - target heal, range raidheal, melee raidheal and it's only for one spec. And it doesn't depend on the encounter, it depends on how I wanna play. I used to heal as a resto druid in vanilla back in ZG and do you know what choices I had? Yes, either to use Healing Touch level 4 or Healing Touch level 5. That's it.

Not really talking about optimizing or balance issues though are we?

Do you seriously think if we had the old talent trees right now you'd still be balancing ranks to mana consumption?

[DarkAmbient]

WoW desperately lacks customisation options. A talent to choose from every 15 levels sucks and getting nothing at all from 100 to 120 sucks even more. I don't care if it's something like x% extra crit, something to choose from every level up feels better.

[Noxina]

You could but only one was really worth it. Not to mention, a lot of the talents were just static extra damage talents that were mandatory yet super boring. Most talents these days actually makes a difference.

Most of those boring static talents was just to get to the bigger core talents. It is quite the same as we got now, without all the filler talents.

[Aggrophobic]

Most of those boring static talents was just to get to the bigger core talents. It is quite the same as we got now, without all the filler talents.

How is it the same? Thoes talents were pointless and were removed and so we got the current system. With better balance, less pointless and mandatory talents and in quite a few situations you actually have a reason to respec within you role with the current system. It's just better in pretty much every way.

It's only while leveling where to old one was a tad more fun but so few actually care about leveling these days that it matter little.

[Noxina]

How is it the same? Thoes talents were pointless and were removed and so we got the current system. With better balance, less pointless and mandatory talents and in quite a few situations you actually have a reason to respec within you role with the current system. It's just better in pretty much every way.

It's only while leveling where to old one was a tad more fun but so few actually care about leveling these days that it matter little.

It's the same as you in the end go for the core talents with the new and the old system. The fillers in the old is just now built into the character it self. You'd respec with the old one aswell, it was just too expensive to do it to get 2% more AOE on a cleave fight.
The balance is better? Is it one thing Blizzard got zero clue how to do, it's balancing talents and classes. It is a reason there are cookie cutter builds, because one is always superior. If it was balanced you'd see more diversity in talents.

So if they added back the old system, and kept the new respec system (you only need to be in a city or at an inn to respecc with zero cost), it would be pretty much the exact same thing, just more buttons to click to get to the exact same core talents. How is that so hard to comprehend?

A note though, I've never said the old one is better. I just prefer it, as I started playing WoW back in Vanilla because it was an MMORPG and not a MOBA in MMO shape. I loved that we actually had to make decisions; "do I want to be an 2h axe warrior, or a DW warrior?" and if you'd change that later on it would cost you. Now you just toss in talents wherever you wanted, and if you want to do a dungeon you swap over to Protection and queue up.

So as I've said a couple of times in this thread, the sense of progress is gone, and the new talent system is one of the many reasons.

[yamix]

As much as I miss them, it would really take a complete redesign of the classes to make it happen. Each spec is now built in such a way that it is its own class, more or less. Passives aren't shared, and resources even change. It would take a tremendous amount of work and a *ton* of abilities - and likely even play styles - would be lost.

I do think if they had stuck to the original designs and did more classes instead of making each spec their own thing it would be more interesting, though.

Oh, and for people saying there was one best build.. that's just not true (at least, no more than today - there will always be a best build for a given situation). Even in Wrath I remember my DK having the option to Dual Wield Unholy in ToC and focus on death coil and some of the other non-physical abilities, and it was somehow competitive (I think it did require a specific gear level, though).

[Chaelexi]

So? They still exist now. Look at Holy Priest Enlightment. Increase Manareggen a bit. Assa Rogue Master posioner.. increases Poison damage by %. Outlaw Hit and Run increases Movementspeed by %. Beastmasters Aspect of the Beast increases damage by %.

I could go on. there are several talents that simply increase something by %. The only difference here is that instead of clicking 5 times to get that %crit/damage/Mana increase, you click only once. Some talents even are the exact same as in old talent trees like Outlaws Weaponmaster = old Sword Specialisation... But yeah so much better right? So much to chose from right?


Open your eyes and notice that its the exact same but worse. Some talents are even iconic abilities you used to buy of your Classtrainer for a couple of silver. Now you have to spec for it wasting a talent point that you could have spent in some of those "fluff" talents. I'd rather get 1% crit and get my abilities for free, than use for my talent point on abilities and get nothing in addition.

But yeah..new talent system is so much better now.. I get it.

So what you are saying is it is better now, thanks...... Of course there is going to be carry over, Weapomaster makes sense but picking which weapon to use was poor design as there were raids that did not have a sword but swords were best so you were pigeonholed into something. You now mae signifficant choices instead of illusions of choice.......well I have to put 2 more points in row 3 even though all the talents here are terrible but that row 4 and 5 have what I want but only 1 point worth in row 5 .......yup that was awesome design......................As for abilities for free the old talents had abilities on row 3,5,7 in most cases, not sure what you are talking about.....like your whole post swing and a miss.

- - - Updated - - -

As much as I miss them, it would really take a complete redesign of the classes to make it happen. Each spec is now built in such a way that it is its own class, more or less. Passives aren't shared, and resources even change. It would take a tremendous amount of work and a *ton* of abilities - and likely even play styles - would be lost.

I do think if they had stuck to the original designs and did more classes instead of making each spec their own thing it would be more interesting, though.

Oh, and for people saying there was one best build.. that's just not true (at least, no more than today - there will always be a best build for a given situation). Even in Wrath I remember my DK having the option to Dual Wield Unholy in ToC and focus on death coil and some of the other non-physical abilities, and it was somehow competitive (I think it did require a specific gear level, though).

DK's were broken in wrath, you could roll face on the talents and be competitive.....

[Rotted]

No, I would be just spamming healing touch and hots.

You said, I had more choice back then. Please, tell me what choices I had as a resto druid.

So you're complaining because your "Spam" was Hots and a heal cast as a resto druid?

You're adorable.

[Swalload]

Okay but I don't understand why this is relevant to the argument. The system is the system and the talents are talents.

I was replying to a comment that suggested that the system and the talents are dependant of one another instead of understanding that talents are factually independant and can be changed without changing the system.

Define "best build" and define "optimal spec" please. When you realize that you cannot, then you'll understand the issue.

I never said there's a different between best build and optimal spec, no idea where you got dug this up, not in my posts.

...random creative builds in your own definition are things that deviate from the tried and true popular strong build. So therefore if someone is messing around with a creative build and it happens to be stronger than the tried and true build. That's the point.

When there's no guides to tell people what to spec (like back in the day) every build was equally as creative. Because of the nature of the game, people mostly ended up with very similar builds because you just read tooltip and realize what's best, so you pick that. Sure, there was that one guy who came up with something good, out of 10m players. Big fucking deal. That's not what most people think of when the term "creative build" is mentioned. Most people trying weird unusual things out were just playing with a shitty build in 99% of all situation. I'm sure you made yourself a build that you felt was original and you got shit dont with it, thinking it was awesome and revolutionary when it was actually not but since the game is so easy it's hard to tell, you can forget to put 5 points in and realize 4 days later, that's how unimportant most talents were and how easy the game is. So even if you don't have THE BEST BUILD IN THE WORLD you can still feel like a god. It doesn't mean the build is the best, it just means builds aren't as important as people made it seem to be.

No I don't. My definition may differ from yours.

You should just stick to the definition of the word like I do and not what you wish it means.

Except the choices today are hollow and they don't differ the specs or the same spec very much at all to be significant.

Yes I said that already in another post. And the state of today's talents and system don't mean it was good before. My stance is that it always sucked, thinking it was good before just because ou hate it today is by virtue of subjective comparison and not by virtue of objective quality.

[Fistfighter]

Thoughts, Comments?

"increased costumisation"
where??? You literaly picked out EVERY TALENT.

Old system was bad, because there was an illusion of choice, but no actual meaningful choice.
"Hm, what shall I choose, add 3%dmg to my Heroic Strike or a 1% chance to stun on hit when using maces"

Almost every class had one cookie cutter built and you couldn't deviate a single bit.

There was like 3 actual abilities in every spec tree. That's equal to a choice you get from one talent row in the new talent system.

I absolutely can't understand why half the playerbase still wants old talent trees. I suspect nostalgia. People still think Wotlk gameplay was superior to today's gameplay, so I deffinitely blame they are just nostalgic.

[Xaviaton]

I would like to see a combination of the new talent tree, the artifact talent tree, and something new. The problem with the old tree was that people would just go for the cookie-cutter specs, making the choice largely meaningless. The new tree just feels small. Add talent points in between the abilities where you can pick three but make it so you actually get access to all the points. The end result at max level would be the same as it is now, but putting points in talents that makes you ever so slightly stronger every level is fun, and at the moment you have no agency (or illusion of agency such as going to the trainer and learning abilities) in the power-increase process of leveling. At max level, add several additional paths of "talents" similar to the Uldir Azerite Armor traits (but slightly more catch-up friendly, or related to "Seasons"). Basically: Completing an activity in game makes you slightly better at completing said activity. I say Uldir traits because of the cap meaning that you cannot grind your brains out. Bonus: Also make a "general activities" bar where you earn "free points" that can be placed in either activity (Imagine it like Fable I's EXP gain tree).

[kaid]

PoE totally relies on cookie cutter builds, though. It's pretty easy to fuck up a character and nerf it permanently, which leads to experienced players looking up working builds online. I agree that PoE is more interesting than WoW's model (current or past), but it cannot work in a MMORPG setting, where balancing is absolutley crucial.

This was always the problem with wows old talent system. There were a lot of traps built into it that you could really nerf yourself if you have minimal understanding of the system. The current one is a bit bland but even talents that are not optimal are still useful.

[Whistl3r]

Whatever format (old style or new) Someone works out the best path and thats what people go on icy veins and copy. You'd always get the odd maverick who swore by their spec (We had a 2h fury warrior in vanilla) but they ultimately didn't perform as well as "The Spec" The joy of the old system was in the progression as you levelled but thats gone now so I don't really see the benefit in the old system coming back.

[Druidzorz]

That makes no sense at all.

- - - Updated - - -



No, there was not.

- - - Updated - - -



Yes, there is.

- - - Updated - - -



Actaully, not really.

- - - Updated - - -



As you leveled, maybe but that is a very small part of the game and it makes no sense designing a system around leveling. The current system is the same but easier to use, easier to set up and actually gives you reasosn to respec when the fight needs it. The old one was just worse.

- - - Updated - - -



But it does.

You can believe what you want but there was most certainly choice. Of course people would go a basic route, but you had options. Not like now. There is a clear best set of talents. And if you don't pick those specific talents you're done. You clearly have no idea wtf you're talking about.

[Xjev]

Man that satisfaction of assigning lvl 30+ talents, level 41 one haha

[Schattenlied]

But it does.

But it doesn't. You use a cookie cutter spec, just like before.

[LionSinMaikeru]

I never said there's a different between best build and optimal spec, no idea where you got dug this up, not in my posts.

I was asking for your definition for them both. Because the two don't have to be one in the same. And the definition is subjective.

When there's no guides to tell people what to spec (like back in the day) every build was equally as creative.

Except back in the day there were spec guides as early as vanilla so...

Because of the nature of the game, people mostly ended up with very similar builds because you just read tooltip and realize what's best, so you pick that.

Not true at all. Just reading tool tips isn't going to tell you what's mathematically better unless you're a genius. You may be able to crunch numbers instantly but the rest of us aren't at that speed. And furthermore since everything in the game is situational, no, most people did not end up with very similar builds unless they were following a guide or something.

Sure, there was that one guy who came up with something good, out of 10m players. Big fucking deal. That's not what most people think of when the term "creative build" is mentioned.

You're pulling that number out of nowhere. Even if it was only "one guy" the point was you are wrong. There were times when creative builds went against the norm and performed better. Period.

Most people trying weird unusual things out were just playing with a shitty build in 99% of all situation. I'm sure you made yourself a build that you felt was original and you got shit dont with it, thinking it was awesome and revolutionary when it was actually not

Your opinion is not fact. You cannot call a build shitty simply because you think it is / was. You're being incredibly arrogant here.

but since the game is so easy it's hard to tell, you can forget to put 5 points in and realize 4 days later, that's how unimportant most talents were and how easy the game is.

So...the game today?

So even if you don't have THE BEST BUILD IN THE WORLD you can still feel like a god. It doesn't mean the build is the best, it just means builds aren't as important as people made it seem to be.

Nobody is saying the build has to be the best. But we're saying there was more character customization back in the day.

You should just stick to the definition of the word like I do and not what you wish it means.

Clearly you're using a different definition than mine of efficient. Efficient means to work well in a particular way. By your own admission the game was "so easy that any build would work" which means any build you could come up with was efficient.

Yes I said that already in another post. And the state of today's talents and system don't mean it was good before. My stance is that it always sucked, thinking it was good before just because ou hate it today is by virtue of subjective comparison and not by virtue of objective quality.

It was good before for what it was. That's the point. It could have been made even better, sure. But it allowed for customization where-as the new system is the illusion of customization which is what the rest of us are arguing about.

[Necromantic]

The old talent trees are one of the V E R Y few things I agree with the Devs on. It gave the "illusion" of customization. You were going to pick them anyway, so why not make those baseline and give you real ways to customize your character?

[jackofwind]

Actaully, not really.

Actually, yes really. Are you really going to make me list them out just for you to flippantly wave them away even though it's clear you have no clue what you're talking about?

PVP
Conflag is a phenomenal PvP spec, is not PvE viable and requires BWL-tier levels of crit.
SL/NF is a great PvP spec at all levels of gear, relying on tankiness and fishing for procs while spamming DoTs and staying mobile.

PVE
SM/Ruin is the classic go-to spec because it's great for raids and performs well in BGs and open world content as well.
DS/Ruin is the absolute top-tier raid spec, outperforming SM/Ruin if the Warlcok doesn't get a debuff slot for Corruption, but is about as glass-cannony as you can get in 1.12 and as such falls behind in other content.

Farming
Dark Pact builds on a decently geared Warlock will give them infinite mana and essentially allow them to chain mobs endlessly. It shines when multi-dotting.
DSac builds use a similar strategy only using the Demo tree, saccing VW for %HP regen and therefore being able to spam Lifetap. The tradeoff of slightly more downtime is a lot more emergency utility via Demo talents.

6 top-tier builds, all viable. At least two options depending on what you were wanting to do, not counting homebrew/one-trick specs that could perform very well in their own right. Extra talent points in every single one of the builds to allow for personal preference - and no, it wasn't insignificant it was entire abilities that dramatically changed gameplay (like taking CoEx).

Go ahead and handwave it away now little sheep.