Most humiliating writing against the Horde in WoW lore.

[Super Dickmann]

There is no way to kill a meme once it is born - it can only die the slow death of apathy and disregard. Fighting it, either head on or through attempts to prove it incorrect, has an insidious way of bringing straight back into the spotlight even if it's no longer applicable.

To be fair, Blizzard aren't even trying. Right before this scene, there's a multiracial Alliance army sent specifically to die, where the warrior of 25k years happily gives his life to die in a shitty swamp for a bunch of void elves and a human bint. Joined by night elves who's leader's opinion of Anduin has no effect on their willingness to die for their spiritual liege. The entire sequence of events is solid gold.

But we're veering off-topic again.

[Arrashi]

The "human potential" meme refers to some hamfisted dialogue on an earlier PTR where Shandris Feathermoon extols the virtues of Humanity as their "potential" to Dark Ranger who upbraids her for stooping to deal with Humans. This dialogue was later and fortunately changed to something not as terrible as the PTR's example, but the meme was born and refuses to die as it's an effective cudgel in the right context.

The dialogue was changed. Mentality was not.

[Pillerina]

War of Thorns and the ultimate fiasco in Lordaeron,with Sylvanas being "the ultimate strategist". Oh wait...

Clearly inspired by the earlier part of the second punic war and the siege of gate Pah, pretty much the greatest strategic and tactical victories in history respectively.

[Jastall]

Only if you take it to its illogical conclusion. The prior characters have internal reasons that drive them forwards. Thrall's quest does not change him in any way. He's identical to who he was at the start except he's at a different location because all the things that happen to him are external plot events. Grom doesn't have this problem. He is the one acting upon others and who changes as a result of what happens to him.

Arthas' decision is internal. He's told several times he can turn back, but he pursues his personal vendetta towards Mal'ganis over the considerations of other things. He can go back, but chooses not to. Thrall never has to choose or overcome anything except physical road blocks he can bash with his hammer or by spamming grunts with the +100 HP upgrade at it. The deprivation of Kael's people is the ongoing thrust of the blood elves that ties them into story hooks in search of ways to solve their problem and drives them onwards. Ditto Illidan's search for power, obsession with Tyrande and so forth. He's always going after something or seeking to do something. Maiev's search for Illidan likewise has her begin her story, sure, but it's her going crazy that gets her to do shit.

The blood elves are also another example of wht happens when a race has no motivation. The second them being junkies is gone, they have nothing really going for them, to the point where that actually becomes their story. The Mists story of the blood elves is them realizing they have nothing in common with the people they're surrounded by and the problem they joined for being solved, and being prevented from bailing by outside factors that recommit them to the Horde for different reasons.

What matters isn't whether they initially need a push to act, but whether after they have that push they can enable plots on their own. All those aforementioned can, Thrall can't, because his goal isn't to get anything, it's to vegetate in a nice place with his people.

Arthas changes only insofar as he descends into abject villainy (much as I would have wanted the burning of Stratholme to be viewed in a grayer way in-universe, it's really not). Maiev doesn't change one iota, events such as Naisha dying just makes her do what she already does a bit more. Kael'thas doesn't either, until TBC, his entire character is doing what he must for the BEs which is already something showcased when he sides with the Naga during his second playable mission. Illidan is a whole other can of worms in that his changes are done by heavy-handed retcons more than anything else which in my books is even worse than leaving a character static. Thrall has to choose to follow Medivh's advice (Arthas, Terenas and Antonidas don't), has to choose how he deal with Grom, and how he deals with Jaina. That's at least more actual choice than Maiev and Kael ever have short of these two simply abandoning their missions.

Really the only real difference is that Thrall succeeded at his ultimate goal without becoming an extremist; settle the Orcs somewhere nice without corruption plaguing them. It happens within one game but before that was a years-long project that he kickstarted by inspiring Orgrim while his entire race were a bunch of vegetables. Changing that so that he is forced to get off his green ass is a simple matter of changing his circumstances, or pulling a Sylvanas and changing his goal after a significant event. Having a character that doesn't descend into extremism doesn't mean there is no more room for a story. Your story just has to be different than if you write for an Arthas. How Blizzard ended up writing Thrall (and especially Go'el) was mostly bad, but I don't think it was an inevitability.

[Aucald]

In the sense that RTSs by default have small casts due to game mechanics that's true. In context, it's fine. When extrapolated to a long-running story that's meant to go on, less so. The orcs I think reached peak variety in Cataclysm. You had Garrosh-style orcs, Thrall-style orcs and then some outliers, like the few warlocks, a Forsaken proxy like Cromush and so on. Back in WC3, having just Grom and Thrall was enough, especially since the orcs didn't have to be the solitary focus past the very beginning.

That is largely what the novels and short stories are for, and likely the reason why a whole spate of novels and short stories preceded and followed WoW Classic. To fill in details and minutiae that couldn't be provided properly in the RTS framework (and the MMO framework). "Lord of the Clans" for example added a great deal more gradient to the Orcs, and those fine details both re-frame and re-contextualize the events of WC3 and its participants. It isn't that these other kinds of Orcs only appeared in Orcish society post-WC3, they were always there, just not showcased as they weren't part of the specific story being told.

The point is that Thrall by himself does not create conflict or enable storylines. He only reacts to outside factors. Be that Medivh telling him to go to Kalimdor, having to wrangle Grom or fighting the Legion/Daelin. Much of Thrall's reflection on Daelin is post-hoc, since Thrall isn't even the protagonist of the bonus campaign, Rexxar is. Arthas, Illidan, Maiev, Kael and so on have objectives that drive them to continue onwards and enable plots by themselves. Thrall reacts to what other people do. As the orcs are reflections of Thrall, which is fine in an RTS and is even okay up to a point in an MMO, after all the bare minimum the faction leaders have to be is some kind of representative of their race, they too do nothing without outside stimuli. The exception to this is Grom, which is why I argue he's the real protagonist of the orc campaign in RoC.

The protagonist of any story can be said to only react to the rising action of the plot they find themselves - Frodo Baggins doesn't act on his own in "Lord of the Rings," but I've never heard anyone accuse the other hobbits of being carbon copies of Frodo, or that the argumentative or fractious member of the fellowship (e.g. Bortomir) is actually the true protagonist of LotR. Rexxar is also completely reactive in WC3: TFT, having run afoul of a dying Grunt on his wandering and then being slowly inveigled into the plot concerning the building of Orgrimmar and finally the thread of Daelin. Kael is completely reactive to the racism of Garithos as well, is Garithos the protagonist of Kael's story as well? This argument seems disingenuous.

That is my argument. Thrall's ascension to Warchief and him proving himself the viable orc leader has already happened in WC3 before it even starts, and you learn of this either through the manual or Lord of the Clans. In-game, he's already Warchief and he has nothing to prove. He undergoes no change. He's already ready to work with humans, see following Medivh and hitting it off with Jaina within their first conversation and ready to settle down and lead a peaceful life. It's Grom who is conflicted and who has a journey to go on. He starts out respecting Thrall, but still driven by his grudge with humanity and his unresolved past with the demons. Thrall comes across as the one holding his leash, who is his crutch to remain a better person. The more he stays in Kalimdor, the more he distances himself from Thrall, from attacking the humans without any reason to pushing the fight with the night elves. When the challenge gets tough and without Thrall to guide him, he rejects the teachings he could never personally buy into and drinks the demon blood voluntarily to win a fight. Even then though, when he first speaks to Mannoroth his respect for Thrall is still there, telling the pit lord that they're free now. It's only once he's mocked that he realizes the full implications of what he's done but by then he's a slave.

When Thrall confronts him, Grom reveals that he got corrupted willingly and did so twice. This is a dig at Thrall, but it doesn't really affect Thrall much. It instead ties into Grom's later arc. Having taken agency for what he did twice over, he also accepts that it's not on Thrall to save him, he has to take the steps. He is the focus of the final cinematic for this reason. Mannoroth is his enemy, his rage and hate taken to its natural conclusion as well as a reflection of his past, being the power he'd handed himself over for to validate those emotions. He's nothing to Thrall, who has no real connection to the orcish past and has no penance to do. Hence why he gets shunted and Grom is the one to reject Mannoroth's comparison to himself and kill him. When his arc ends with his death, having made peace with himself, the orcish campaign ends and from then on Thrall and the orcs are supporting characters in the stories of others.

I think you misunderstand me - "Lord of the Clans" is Thrall's origin story, and the one in which he is newly anointed Warchief upon the death of Orgrim. WC3 is Thrall's rise to both prove himself as said Warchief, as well as redeeming the Orcish people and "buying" them a true place on Azeroth by working to save it from the Legion. The whole subtext of Thrall's reformation is that the Orcs have something to prove, and he has something to prove by them. The Oracle tells Thrall he will find purpose and safety for his people in Kalimdor, vaguely threatening about the coming of darkness. Thrall heeds the call and things happen, and the Orcs prove themselves true adoptive children of Azeroth despite what prejudices and lingering hatred the Alliance races might have. This is not to say Grom has no journey of his own and no arc, but his arc is a personal one about personal redemption for his sins - he even dies confirming this, but it takes Thrall to expand that redemption for all and it is Thrall who carries that redemption out of Demon Fall Canyon to the rest of his people (never forgetting who made it possible). Grom's sacrifice opens the way, but it is Thrall that must carry that banner on and end the threat of the Legion. Lack of focus also doesn't relegate a character or characters to unimportance - they are in support roles because another group's story is being told at the time, but potent importance remains to all the races present at the close of WC3 even thought the Night Elves take prominence in the chapter.

This doesn't work for an MMO, and it's the orcs engaging with their past, be it with appreciation or with reassessment, that was what worked about the orcish story in WC3, hence it's the well they went back to to enable conflict, since Thrall's Horde, as already said, had achieved its objectives. It could tame the land, sure, but that doesn't put their agenda at odds with anyone except the night elves, which a Grom-style character would have much more to do with. Daelin doesn't bring about any reassessment to the orcs, they have already proven themselves before through the Grom story, Daelin is just showing this externally and defeating someone who doesn't get it. More aggressive, proactive orcs are needed to advance plots in opposition with the Alliance races. In addition, the Forsaken and blood elves fulfilled this purpose at the start, which is what I was getting at. From WC3 on, the stories told from a Horde perspective that weren't about reassessing its past/morality are minimal.

Don't forget that Grom stayed in complete stasis in terms of the narrative until Thrall arrived to meet him. The entirety of the Orcs' internment passed with barely a hint of action from Grom, and when Thrall meets him he is gaunt and emaciated, eaten within and without from the effects of the Blood Curse and the attendant lethargy. You seem to put an emphasis on hostile or war-like characters I find interesting, it may indicative of your particular biases or preference for specific types of characters. You favor warmongers over peacemakers, agitators over diplomats. Both conflict and reconciliation are paths to resolution, after all; and there's no harm in acknowledging a preference so long as you don't judge an entire story when your preferences aren't met. I favor the diplomat over the agitator, myself, if wasn't obvious - but even I know that a good story is only as good as its villain or villains.

- - - Updated - - -

The dialogue was changed. Mentality was not.

The argument can easily be made that the Alliance is too Humanocentric, I guess you'd say. "Human potential" as a meme is mostly in the spirit of meanness and spite, though; I've found those who use it most frequently don't really care about the flaws of the Alliance or wish to see them addressed in any way. They're just lampooning a convenient target.

[Zandalariprelate]

The dialogue was changed. Mentality was not.

Yeah not even the plague was this contagious, Anduin will give Kel'thuzad a run for his money!

[KrakHed]

Don't forget that Grom stayed in complete stasis in terms of the narrative until Thrall arrived to meet him. The entirety of the Orcs' internment passed with barely a hint of action from Grom, and when Thrall meets him he is gaunt and emaciated, eaten within and without from the effects of the Blood Curse and the attendant lethargy. You seem to put an emphasis on hostile or war-like characters I find interesting, it may indicative of your particular biases or preference for specific types of characters. You favor warmongers over peacemakers, agitators over diplomats. Both conflict and reconciliation are paths to resolution, after all; and there's no harm in acknowledging a preference so long as you don't judge an entire story when your preferences aren't met. I favor the diplomat over the agitator, myself, if wasn't obvious - but even I know that a good story is only as good as its villain or villains.

- - - Updated - - -

The argument can easily be made that the Alliance is too Humanocentric, I guess you'd say. "Human potential" as a meme is mostly in the spirit of meanness and spite, though; I've found those who use it most frequently don't really care about the flaws of the Alliance or wish to see them addressed in any way. They're just lampooning a convenient target.

I may as well butt in here, but I see Grom and Thrall's story in WC3 as interlinked. There was a key-line that's probably been retconned in recent lore. "We drank the blood willingly". Thrall is a naive outsider who has faith in Grom, our drug addict friend. Thrall's story there is in maintaining faith in his friend, even after learning he was no innocent victim, even after that faith was betrayed, and being proven right in the end.

I don't see Garrosh as a second Grom, but as a deconstruction of Grom and Thrall's dynamic in a way. Garrosh constantly disappoints Thrall, but Thrall continues to believe in him. In the end, Garrosh dies with no regrets, because every failing of his was someone else's fault. His final death rattle is him abdicating responsibility for who he is to a man younger than himself. Quite a far cry from "We drank the blood willingly", the furthest thing from it in my mind.

Thrall was right to believe in Grom. Grom owned his mistakes, even if he still made them. Garrosh didn't deserve that faith. The lesson Thrall should have learned from that was to be more discerning.

[Aucald]

I may as well butt in here, but I see Grom and Thrall's story in WC3 as interlinked. There was a key-line that's probably been retconned in recent lore. "We drank the blood willingly". Thrall is a naive outsider who has faith in Grom, our drug addict friend. Thrall's story there is in maintaining faith in his friend, even after learning he was no innocent victim, even after that faith was betrayed, and being proven right in the end.

I don't disagree, both of their arcs inform one another - they practically define one another until Thrall grows beyond them and Grom dies. I don't know if I would say that Thrall stands by Grom, as it were; he doesn't give him a soft exile to a non-combat role out of fear of his bloodlust. But Grom like all Orcs was in need of the same kind of redemption that all the Orcs were searching for, perhaps most of all given his role in the excesses of the Old Horde. Thrall forgave Grom in the same vein as he wanted all his kind to be forgiven, and Grom proved that that faith as you put it was not moved into the wrong quarter.

I don't see Garrosh as a second Grom, but as a deconstruction of Grom and Thrall's dynamic in a way. Garrosh constantly disappoints Thrall, but Thrall continues to believe in him. In the end, Garrosh dies with no regrets, because every failing of his was someone else's fault. His final death rattle is him abdicating responsibility for who he is to a man younger than himself. Quite a far cry from "We drank the blood willingly", the furthest thing from it in my mind.

Garrosh was far from a second Grom, but Thrall had a tendency to confuse the two (or at least I felt so). Thrall sensed in Garrosh the same greatness of spirit that Grom contained, the same greatness of spirit that allowed Grom to single-handedly dispatch Mannoroth and sacrifice himself to redeem himself and his people in turn. I don't know if I would say Garrosh died with no regrets - he voices none, but "War Crimes" exposed the fundamental crack in his nature through which more troubled tendencies pour out. Garrosh is eternally searching for the father figure denied him - he thinks he finds it in Thrall for a time, but then Thrall proves himself not to be what Garrosh needed. He turns to another dimension entirely to try to recapture an echo of Grom from another timeline, but even that can fill the fundamental break in his soul. Garrosh blames everyone but himself because he never internalized what was wrong with him - he keeps looking for an answer outside of himself, but is only met with failure because the problem is internal. Garrosh died as he lived, in ignorance and railing at the vagaries of fate, an ending made all the more tragic for him never recognizing the nature of his search.

Thrall was right to believe in Grom. Grom owned his mistakes, even if he still made them. Garrosh didn't deserve that faith. The lesson Thrall should have learned from that was to be more discerning.

The worst thing in my mind, i.e. Garrosh and Grom, was when Thrall maligned Grom in Garrosh's presence (referring to his many mistakes) only to have Garrosh bristle so much that he challenged his Warchief to Mak'gora in short order. That moment underlined the fundamental error Thrall made with Garrosh - he spoke to Garrosh in Garadar about the heroics and the noble sacrifice of his father, but he never explicated Grom's many errors and mistakes. Garrosh knew only that his father had drank the Blood of Mannoroth and nothing else. Thrall gave him a new and idealized view of his father (a product of all the things Thrall and Grom went through) but he never tempered this with knowledge of the extent of Grom's failings and even his atrocities. Grom died a hero but he certainly didn't live as one, and this too is something Garrosh should've been told. Even after this for the whole of WotLK and Cata it is never addressed to our knowledge, and Thrall anoints Garrosh as Warchief and leaves him to rule with the same ignorance intact. Thrall was the architect of Garrosh's later grandiosity and monomania with Orcish supremacy, using the model of his irrationally idealized father as the model he wished his people to emulate. Needless to say it didn't work.

[Felixon]

Blizzard could assist in killing the meme if it didn't prove us continually right in using it. My favorite remains that one with the Alliance leadership meeting after Battle for Dazar'alor consisting entirely of humans.

Edit: Ah, there it is.

Haha,this is golden. Literally golden. The Alliance now is humans and other races,that would die without the help of the smartest and strongest race on Azeroth.

[Super Dickmann]

Arthas changes only insofar as he descends into abject villainy (much as I would have wanted the burning of Stratholme to be viewed in a grayer way in-universe, it's really not). Maiev doesn't change one iota, events such as Naisha dying just makes her do what she already does a bit more. Kael'thas doesn't either, until TBC, his entire character is doing what he must for the BEs which is already something showcased when he sides with the Naga during his second playable mission. Illidan is a whole other can of worms in that his changes are done by heavy-handed retcons more than anything else which in my books is even worse than leaving a character static. Thrall has to choose to follow Medivh's advice (Arthas, Terenas and Antonidas don't), has to choose how he deal with Grom, and how he deals with Jaina. That's at least more actual choice than Maiev and Kael ever have short of these two simply abandoning their missions.

I'm limiting myself specifically to WC3 here, but your read is simply wrong. Arthas changes significantly as he goes, that he does so for the worse is also true, but it's all brought on by internal changes in his character. He goes from prioritizing his people but maintaining a paladin's morals, to discarding the latter in his pursuit of the former and ultimately to discarding his love for his people as well so he can achieve his vengeance over Mal'ganis. At every turn, this is brought up, from Jaina and Uther's comments at Stratholme to Muradin chiding Arthas both over the mercenaries and over the final choice to take Frostmourne. There's an examination of his character there. Maiev likewise is driven forward by her own decisions rather than outside factors and her descent into obsession happens after Naisha dies. The final conflict includes the Scourge, but they're not the real conflict, the conflict is caused by Maiev's personal decisions when she lies to Malf about what happened to Tyrande so she can try to catch Illidan and when find out, the two brothers working together to save Tyrande and coming to an accord. This is a positive development for them, not one that makes them worse and it stems from their personality. For Kael, it's his transition from sticking with the Alliance out of necessity to accepting Illidan's offer. He's the weakest case here, since he also mostly reacts to others, but he maintains a hook, as do his people, that involves them proactively in plots, that being their need for magic.

Thrall has none of that. He's the same guy at the start of his WC3 campaign as he is at the end. Nothing comes from his decisions based on his personality because he effectively makes none. He doesn't have any character traits that need changing because he's already perfect, nor does he have a descent to go on. He is, from the main cast, the most static character. For a character or a race to work, they don't need much, they just need some drive to get them into plots. Thrall, as he was back in WC3, does not have them, as he has achieved his goals and his people are content. As explained, the character driven narrative within the game is Grom's, as he does have changes to go through and things to do.

@Aucald

The orcs proving themselves outwardly is not Thrall's plot alone, it's also an element that resonates far more with Grom, as he's the one who used to be something they wouldn't accept and represents that aspect of the orcs. Thrall is a character in that story, but as you note, he's an accessory to it. A supporting character to advance what Grom has to go through and achieve and what his personality produces for the narrative. Thrall is the same at the end and the beginning. At best, other's opinions of him change, but not because he has to do anything, but because they have to learn to let him into their hearts, as he's already god's gift to Azeroth.

Grom's state in Lord of the Clans is as beside the point as Thrall's, because we're discussing purely their narrative in WC3 and going forward. Thrall's origin story is also where he proves himself to be Warchief. He's already wearing the trappings of Doomhammer in WC3, the orcs already follow him and he already has no issue leaving the shithole he lives in behind to go to Kalimdor on the advice of a human in the very first scene of the whole game. He already doesn't want to fight humans and he's already separate from the blood rage, since he never lived it.

The line @KrakHed mentioned is relevant only after the fact to Thrall in that it informs his racial guilt story. Within WC3 itself, it's a line that's about Grom. Grom and Thrall's dynamic was a lot less unhealthy within that game and even in Lord of the Clans than it becomes after he dies. Grom accepts Thrall as Warchief and respects him, but he also has the view that Thrall will redeem him from his mistakes, his big character change being later accepting that it's something he has to take ownership of and has to do himself. The line and his actions after that in the cinematic are him taking his redemption in his own hands, saving Thrall and defeating an antagonist intimately tied to him before reaching the end of his narrative arc.

Thrall on the other hand, much later, misjudges him and assumes it as an act of redemption that erases what he previously did, as it does with the whole of the Old Horde and was done for the people. You can tie this in with his lionization of the WC2 era-Horde heroes that later feeds into Garrosh. But as with most things regarding Thrall, this is entirely retroactive. In WC3, it has no bearing whatsoever as the two only exchange exposition with each other afterwards and Thrall is totally chill in TFT.

As regards my preference in characters, in regards to Warcraft it's an outgrowth of my preference for character-driven stories. A good character driven story needs to have a protagonist that wants something and has to do things and either change or confront/explore aspects of his character to get to do the thing or fail to get it. Warcraft is based almost entirely on violence and war. A peaceful character can exist there of course, but he needs to be tempered by the setting into at least some realism, rather than having the setting and all other characters bend to align with him, because the medium simply doesn't allow that kind of story and it's not what you go in for. Though in WC3 I'd argue none except Arthas among those I cited are villainous characters, even if they are conflicted. Grom, Maiev, Illidan and so on all have heroic traits as well and ultimately want to achieve some good, even if they're kind of crap at it.

[Verdugo]

Haha,this is golden. Literally golden. The Alliance now is humans and other races,that would die without the help of the smartest and strongest race on Azeroth.

B-b-b-b-ut one of them is worgen! Stop lying with your Horde propaganda!!!!

/s

[Kwento]

B-b-b-b-ut one of them is worgen! Stop lying with your Horde propaganda!!!!

/s

I wonder if any Gilnean worgen would argue that it’s not human anymore btw...
Oh, who am I kidding... Like any of them would change being a master race for growing pumpkins.

[Felixon]

B-b-b-b-ut one of them is worgen! Stop lying with your Horde propaganda!!!!

/s

Haha,it's not a propaganda - it's just Golden.

[Arrashi]

The argument can easily be made that the Alliance is too Humanocentric, I guess you'd say. "Human potential" as a meme is mostly in the spirit of meanness and spite, though; I've found those who use it most frequently don't really care about the flaws of the Alliance or wish to see them addressed in any way. They're just lampooning a convenient target.

*insert Gabe Newell "Uhhh no" here*

Nope, alliance, and warcraft itself is having their own version of "spiritual liege" thing warhammer 40k had. Its just that its far more widespread and much worse. Humans dominate almost every single aspect of lore, being completely parasitic on not only other alliance races, but all other races period.
The human potential meme laid bare the mindset of people writing the story and shown just how little self-awareness can one have.

- - - Updated - - -

Haha,it's not a propaganda - it's just Golden.

Christie Golden vs Matt Ward - Top 10 anime battles.

[Kwento]

*insert Gabe Newell "Uhhh no" here*

Nope, alliance, and warcraft itself is having their own version of "spiritual liege" thing warhammer 40k had. Its just that its far more widespread and much worse. Humans dominate almost every single aspect of lore, being completely parasitic on not only other alliance races, but all other races period.
The human potential meme laid bare the mindset of people writing the story and shown just how little self-awareness can one have.

- - - Updated - - -



Christie Golden vs Matt Ward - Top 10 anime battles.

And for the most part the blame is on that idiotic notion that players cannot relate to non-human races.

[Aucald]

The orcs proving themselves outwardly is not Thrall's plot alone, it's also an element that resonates far more with Grom, as he's the one who used to be something they wouldn't accept and represents that aspect of the orcs. Thrall is a character in that story, but as you note, he's an accessory to it. A supporting character to advance what Grom has to go through and achieve and what his personality produces for the narrative. Thrall is the same at the end and the beginning. At best, other's opinions of him change, but not because he has to do anything, but because they have to learn to let him into their hearts, as he's already god's gift to Azeroth.

Grom proves the Orcs can overcome the Blood Curse, showing that they are more than what the Legion has made them and that some semblance of their nobler selves remain. Thrall proves that the Orcs belong on Azeroth - putting the lie to Turalyon's claim that they are "not part of the Light" as invaders from another place. WC3 is also when Thrall proves himself worthy of the Doomplate and the Doomhammer, when he truly enacts the prophecy. It wasn't just freeing his people in "Lord of the Clans," but it was also giving them a new home, a fresh start, and making themselves true denizens of this new world. No one is the same at the end of Third War than they were in the beginning - even Thrall has learned much, has become wiser, made connections to others such as Cairne and Vol'jin. I think you tilt the emphasis more toward inaction and stasis than the reality of the narrative portrays.

Grom's state in Lord of the Clans is as beside the point as Thrall's, because we're discussing purely their narrative in WC3 and going forward. Thrall's origin story is also where he proves himself to be Warchief. He's already wearing the trappings of Doomhammer in WC3, the orcs already follow him and he already has no issue leaving the shithole he lives in behind to go to Kalimdor on the advice of a human in the very first scene of the whole game. He already doesn't want to fight humans and he's already separate from the blood rage, since he never lived it.

"Lord of the Clans" is the story where Thrall becomes the king of his people, so to speak. WC3 is the story where his rule changes the Orcish people, and he proves himself worthy of the mantle Orgrim bestowed him. Thrall doesn't just accede to the Prophet's requests willy-nilly, either; the dream that is the WC3 opening cinematic is also in his mind - he's seeing the future (or some representation of it), the coming of the Legion. You crouch it like he's just fleeing the Eastern Kingdoms because of the Humans, not escaping the doom being foretold. Thrall never had the blood rage because Durotan's clan never partook of the Blood of Mannoroth as Durotan had been warned by Ner'zhul about what the Chalice of Unity actually entailed for them. Orgrim was also uncorrupted, at least in this sense, as per "Rise of the Horde."

The line KrakHed mentioned is relevant only after the fact to Thrall in that it informs his racial guilt story. Within WC3 itself, it's a line that's about Grom. Grom and Thrall's dynamic was a lot less unhealthy within that game and even in Lord of the Clans than it becomes after he dies. Grom accepts Thrall as Warchief and respects him, but he also has the view that Thrall will redeem him from his mistakes, his big character change being later accepting that it's something he has to take ownership of and has to do himself. The line and his actions after that in the cinematic are him taking his redemption in his own hands, saving Thrall and defeating an antagonist intimately tied to him before reaching the end of his narrative arc.

I'm not sure which line you're referring to, so I can't speak to it. In WC3 Grom chafes at Thrall stopping him from fighting the Humans present in Kalimdor - he's being goaded by the Blood Curse amplified a bit by the presence of the Legion on Azeroth, but he still bickers with Thrall about what "a true Warchief" should be doing (fighting the Humans for no reason). After being freed from his second scrape with slavery to the Legion he does indeed internalize what he's done and what he is, and then sets out with Thrall to rectify it for all time by confronting the one who corrupted him to begin with.

Thrall on the other hand, much later, misjudges him and assumes it as an act of redemption that erases what he previously did, as it does with the whole of the Old Horde and was done for the people. You can tie this in with his lionization of the WC2 era-Horde heroes that later feeds into Garrosh. But as with most things regarding Thrall, this is entirely retroactive. In WC3, it has no bearing whatsoever as the two only exchange exposition with each other afterwards and Thrall is totally chill in TFT.

I don't think Thrall forgets what Grom was - I don't think he could, but he honors what Grom achieved in his sacrifice, and eulogizes him as we tend to do people who died but perhaps didn't live quite so heroically. Thrall later confronts Garrosh about his father's errors later on, but by that point he'd already made the tactical error of giving Garrosh the wrong impression of Grom. There's also a lot to unpack for Garrosh, too; as he was no doubt itching for a way to justify his father's legacy and Thrall somewhat unwittingly gave him that excuse. There is a good reason why Garrosh's opinion of his father changes practically instantly, after all; and wasn't just expediency of the narrative as it turned out.

As regards my preference in characters, in regards to Warcraft it's an outgrowth of my preference for character-driven stories. A good character driven story needs to have a protagonist that wants something and has to do things and either change or confront/explore aspects of his character to get to do the thing or fail to get it. Warcraft is based almost entirely on violence and war. A peaceful character can exist there of course, but he needs to be tempered by the setting into at least some realism, rather than having the setting and all other characters bend to align with him, because the medium simply doesn't allow that kind of story and it's not what you go in for. Though in WC3 I'd argue none except Arthas among those I cited are villainous characters, even if they are conflicted. Grom, Maiev, Illidan and so on all have heroic traits as well and ultimately want to achieve some good, even if they're kind of crap at it.

I would imagine Thrall fits your outline, then. He sets out to first learn of his culture, finding the Frostwolves and connected with Drek'thar to embrace what he actually is (an Orc, not a Human). He takes the om'riggor and manages to connect to the Elements. He passes the tests that Orgrim sets for him to determine if he's worthy to even be an Orc, much less a clan chieftain. After successfully conducting the raids on the internment camps and freeing more of his people he becomes worthy in Orgrim's eyes of the mantle of leadership - and when Orgrim dies suddenly at Hammerfall it is thrust upon him (in Orgrim's own words to show that the line of Warchief will remain unbroken). As Warchief he gathers his people and brings them safely across the sea, fending off the threats of a strange new land and connecting with its denizens like the Tauren and the Darkspear, before finally leading his people into a grand alliance with enemies old and new, putting the shared past behind them to work to save the world from its age-old enemies.

The setting and other characters don't bend and align to him - there's no conflict if that occurs, and as you said conflict is pretty much the engine on which Warcraft runs.

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*insert Gabe Newell "Uhhh no" here*

Nope, alliance, and warcraft itself is having their own version of "spiritual liege" thing warhammer 40k had. Its just that its far more widespread and much worse. Humans dominate almost every single aspect of lore, being completely parasitic on not only other alliance races, but all other races period.
The human potential meme laid bare the mindset of people writing the story and shown just how little self-awareness can one have.

I would argue that believing that, that "Humans dominate almost every single aspect of lore" means you know or care little about the actual lore - or your bias is such that accord anything counter to your view little to no importance. The Horde is the prime mover of BfA for example, the Alliance (and as such the Humans) have relatively little exploration of their role or purpose in the war. They're reacting to whatever the Horde does - and it is the Horde who sets the tempo and carries the thematic weight of the story (which is why almost all of BfA's cinematics and storyboarding starts and ends with the actions of Horde characters).

For a "spiritual liege" Anduin is pretty active in the rule of his people, so to speak. Isn't the Emperor of Mankind of W4K sort of in the mold of a static godhead - a cyborged husk whose true purpose is in providing people FTL travel as well as some form of psychic guidance enacted through his priests or acolytes? He seems more like a Leto Atreides God-King type character - a passive force, more a literal god-like being than one who has been lionized as such? The High King of the Alliance is neither a god nor a messiah, in this regard - a savior for Humanity, perhaps, but only in the sense that he could win the war and earn peace for his people and all that jazz.

[Verdugo]

For a "spiritual liege" Anduin is pretty active in the rule of his people, so to speak. Isn't the Emperor of Mankind of W4K sort of in the mold of a static godhead - a cyborged husk whose true purpose is in providing people FTL travel as well as some form of psychic guidance enacted through his priests or acolytes? He seems more like a Leto Atreides God-King type character - a passive force, more a literal god-like being than one who has been lionized as such? The High King of the Alliance is neither a god nor a messiah, in this regard - a savior for Humanity, perhaps, but only in the sense that he could win the war and earn peace for his people and all that jazz.

He was talking about something else:

A "liege" is a sovereign to whom one owes fealty. Therefore, a "spiritual liege" would be a person to whom one is ideologically loyal, like a thinker whose philosophy one followes.

This phrase has come to be widely used among fans of Warhammer 40,000 after Matt Ward gave an interview explaining why Codex: Space Marines had so many Ultramarines characters in them: "[t]he Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine Chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their Spiritual Liege."

[Arrashi]

I would argue that believing that, that "Humans dominate almost every single aspect of lore" means you know or care little about the actual lore - or your bias is such that accord anything counter to your view little to no importance. The Horde is the prime mover of BfA for example, the Alliance (and as such the Humans) have relatively little exploration of their role or purpose in the war. They're reacting to whatever the Horde does - and it is the Horde who sets the tempo and carries the thematic weight of the story (which is why almost all of BfA's cinematics and storyboarding starts and ends with the actions of Horde characters).

For a "spiritual liege" Anduin is pretty active in the rule of his people, so to speak. Isn't the Emperor of Mankind of W4K sort of in the mold of a static godhead - a cyborged husk whose true purpose is in providing people FTL travel as well as some form of psychic guidance enacted through his priests or acolytes? He seems more like a Leto Atreides God-King type character - a passive force, more a literal god-like being than one who has been lionized as such? The High King of the Alliance is neither a god nor a messiah, in this regard - a savior for Humanity, perhaps, but only in the sense that he could win the war and earn peace for his people and all that jazz.

Yeah, batman also reacts to villains, and yet noone disputes that he is main character. Hell, even the comic is named after him.

And spiritual liege was never about emperor of mankind, thats entire point why this meme exists to begin with. It was always about ward pushing his fanwank about calgar and guilliman to extreme in everything he wrote. And golden and co. and doing literally the same with anduin and humans.

[Aucald]

Yeah, batman also reacts to villains, and yet noone disputes that he is main character. Hell, even the comic is named after him.

And spiritual liege was never about emperor of mankind, thats entire point why this meme exists to begin with. It was always about ward pushing his fanwank about calgar and guilliman to extreme in everything he wrote. And golden and co. and doing literally the same with anduin and humans.

Batman is a comic series about the titular Batman character, so yes, everything would and should eventually come back to him. Warcraft is a story about many characters - it is more focused on the plot than it is the characters in that plot. It's a story of unending conflict between a variable cast of characters. The king of the Humans is one of those characters, but he's far from the only one and far from the most important. In the current context, Sylvanas eclipses Anduin's importance by leagues, at least in my opinion.

I don't know much about Matt Ward, so I can't speak to that. But an author gushing over a particular topic doesn't mean said topic is automatically the most important thing ever. Danuser is effusive in his praise of Nathanos, as you've been at pains to point out, but Nathanos isn't the prime mover or driver of the story of Warcraft currently, either. People take the words of authors outside of the books or stories they write a little too seriously, sometimes.

[Super Dickmann]

Grom proves the Orcs can overcome the Blood Curse, showing that they are more than what the Legion has made them and that some semblance of their nobler selves remain. Thrall proves that the Orcs belong on Azeroth - putting the lie to Turalyon's claim that they are "not part of the Light" as invaders from another place. WC3 is also when Thrall proves himself worthy of the Doomplate and the Doomhammer, when he truly enacts the prophecy. It wasn't just freeing his people in "Lord of the Clans," but it was also giving them a new home, a fresh start, and making themselves true denizens of this new world. No one is the same at the end of Third War than they were in the beginning - even Thrall has learned much, has become wiser, made connections to others such as Cairne and Vol'jin. I think you tilt the emphasis more toward inaction and stasis than the reality of the narrative portrays.

The thing is that his journey lacks internal struggle. Thrall has nothing keeping him in Lordaeron. It sucks and if we go by with Blood and Honor, had he not left, he'd already thrown the proverbial gauntlet at Terenas and was going to duke it out. That's potential for conflict, but it never materializes. All of Thrall's choices are already made for him by others or incredibly easy because they align with what he's already aimed to do and benefits those involved. I don't buy that he's become wiser. He's already wise at the start and it's the traits he has that attract Cairne and Vol'jin to join him, not ones he goes on to gain. His journey to become the person he is is already done in Lord of the Clans, where he escapes from slavery, gets together with Doomhammer and is passed the torch by him at the end. He's already earned it with his deeds there, he definitely doesn't need to prove himself to his people or to himself - they already follow him. WC3 isn't where they change. They've already changed, it's just where that change is shown to us.

I am not saying he's leaving to escape the humans out of some base motive, so much that he didn't want conflict with Terenas and the vision provided him a way to get out of it and still achieve his objective. It solves his problem and presents him with one he's much more happy to get involved in and presents fewer issues for his goals and personality. That he never had the blood rage is a given, that's my point. It's not a flaw of his that he doesn't have it, but it means that Mannoroth doesn't really mean much to him. He's an abstract foe, whereas to Grom he's very real and a reminder of what he used to be. There's a reason that even when Mannoroth addresses Thrall, he's talking about Grom and why Grom is the one to finish him off. Mannoroth is his antagonist. It's his journey to prove that when Mannoroth says they're the same or that he's a tool for the demons, he's wrong, which Grom ultimately proves by cleaving him.

I'm not sure which line you're referring to, so I can't speak to it.

The line where Grom reveals to Thrall that the orcs accepted the demon blood willingly, they weren't conned into it. This is reflective of Grom's arc and his later decisions. It has no effect at all on Thrall within WC3. But for Grom it's an admission of ownership - this is his fault and Thrall can't be the one who bails him out. From then on, we agree, which is what I'm getting at. This is Grom's story, to which Thrall is a supporting character. That doesn't mean Thrall has no role in it, but that the narrative focus and the drama involved is from Grom.

As Warchief he gathers his people and brings them safely across the sea, fending off the threats of a strange new land and connecting with its denizens like the Tauren and the Darkspear, before finally leading his people into a grand alliance with enemies old and new, putting the shared past behind them to work to save the world from its age-old enemies.

This is the root of my issue with Thrall. As you point out, at the end of Lord of the Clans and Blood and Honor, Thrall is actually faced with an interesting dilemma. He's in charge of the orcs and wants to guide them to a shamanistic existence of his own devising and which Doomhammer in his last moments hoped to do. But while he wants peace, he shares territory with Lordaeron, whom he is forced to fight and who doesn't want an orcish state where they're at and has nothing but bad blood with. There's potential for drama and overcoming grudges here, along with classic orcs vs humans fighting. Instead, Medivh swoops in to give Thrall another land he can go to, sidestepping the problem entirely and then he only meets people who align with him ideologically or are ontologically evil and can safely be offed. Thrall's beliefs are never tested in any meaningful sense, not until WoW. It's not his setup that's the problem, it's what happens when that setup actually becomes an in-game story in WC3.