is BM really this shit?

[Regalosh]

Nothing wrong with playing BM. But thinking that BM is a complex spec is just crazy.

Personally I couldnt main a BM hunter. It would be waaaaay too boring. It’s nice to have as an Alt though for when you need to turn your brain off for a while.

The sad thing is the you are seemingly being serious about admitting that you don't even main hunter, but at the same time you expect anyone to give credit to the extreme statements of yours.

Also most ppl here never stated BM hunter is ultra-difficult, but rather debating your constant hyperbolic statement of the spec being brainded easy.

[Bepples]

balancing involves tuning and testing and leveling and compensating.

All of those steps involve math. What even is your point here?

a talent that is "dreadstalker is now instant" how do you apply math to that? without just ruining the whole point of the talent?

Huh? Such a talent would be a tangible DPS increase. Balancing that against other talents is a mathematical matter.

Imagine latching on to one particular word of a post and trying to attack the use of that word instead of posting anything to do with the original point of the post... and then being wrong about it anyway! Are you usually this stubbornly contrarian?

Plus, I used the term "math" because that's what developers themselves have used. I specifically had this atrocious response by Hazzikostas in mind:

[Kaver]

The sad thing is the you are seemingly being serious about admitting that you don't even main hunter, but at the same time you expect anyone to give credit to the extreme statements of yours.

Also most ppl here never stated BM hunter is ultra-difficult, but rather debating your constant hyperbolic statement of the spec being brainded easy.

"don't even main a hunter"... people who main a BM hunter are people who like to play games with cheat codes. I don't need any credit from "main BM hunters". That's worth zero to me. I just think they should stop complaining about being on the bottom of the dps charts, because that is where they belong.

You don't have to main a BM hunter to see the low complexity of the spec. The fact that you can play an alt near optimally with no effort or learning curve is just a testament of how simple the spec is. And a spec which is so extremely effortless should be on the bottom of the dps charts. Simple.

BM is always one of the most played specs in the game. And this is not because of max performance, class fantasy or anything like that. It is because the spec is so effortless and people like that. The path of least resistance. If you made a "dps:effort ratio", BM would be on top by a mile.

[Tehterokkar]

balancing involves tuning and testing and leveling and compensating.


a talent that is "dreadstalker is now instant" how do you apply math to that? without just ruining the whole point of the talent?

Easy to apply math to that.

Call Dreadstalkers has a 2 second cast time. Therefore it's DPET(Damage Per Execution Time) is 0.5X, but with instant cast it's 0.667X, which is a 33% increase. This also translates into 1 extra Shadow Bolt every 4 Call Dreadstalker casts during a fight(or every 80 seconds). And over the duration of 4 minutes(pretty standard fight duration), you gain 3 Shadow Bolts and 1 Hand of Gul'dan cast. This is all without factoring haste or other effects.

But since said talent is currently PvP-only, the benefit of it is mostly the fact that you can cast it while moving away from other players/or chasing them while also being immune to it being interrupted. For PvE said talent would be very weak if it was competing in the row of real DPS talents.

[Lodvampire]

"don't even main a hunter"... people who main a BM hunter are people who like to play games with cheat codes. I don't need any credit from "main BM hunters". That's worth zero to me. I just think they should stop complaining about being on the bottom of the dps charts, because that is where they belong.

You don't have to main a BM hunter to see the low complexity of the spec. The fact that you can play an alt near optimally with no effort or learning curve is just a testament of how simple the spec is. And a spec which is so extremely effortless should be on the bottom of the dps charts. Simple.

BM is always one of the most played specs in the game. And this is not because of max performance, class fantasy or anything like that. It is because the spec is so effortless and people like that. The path of least resistance. If you made a "dps:effort ratio", BM would be on top by a mile.

Damm, looks like someone got bellow a BM hunter on charts, lol.

[Kaver]

Damm, looks like someone got bellow a BM hunter on charts, lol.

When you start attacking me personally instead of keeping to the subject, you just know it's because I'm right

[Bepples]

When you start attacking me personally instead of keeping to the subject, you just know it's because I'm right

The reason people respond like that is because, not only does it seem like you have a personal vendetta against BM, your argument seems to be based in the whole "your pet does all the work!" meme more than anything else. BM really, seriously isn't significantly easier than the average spec. You can swear up and down that the spec is more forgiving than other specs and has a high damage baseline but ultimately to get the most out of the spec you need to put in just as much effort as any other DPS spec. There are several specs in the game that are candidates for being "easier than BM"; Frost Mage is an example. It's usually because BM actually has pretty involved cooldown management and most other specs do not.

BM is one of the most popular specs because, after Legion, it is the most appealing spec to most Hunters because it's most similar to the specs that came before Legion. Before Legion BM would compete with the other specs regularly. In MoP, for example, it was a back-and-forth between BM and SV. Three of the most major selling points for the Hunter class are: being ranged, being mobile, and having pets. BM best represents all three after Legion. It is maximally patronising to pretend that Hunters only play BM because they are all stupid and only want to play easy specs or something.

On that note: no one is actually demanding that BM remain an easy spec/be made easier. BM Hunters didn't ask for the massive pruning in Legion. How does it make sense that the developers "punish" BM Hunters with bad damage and bad scaling for being an easy spec yet all the decisions that made the spec easy were forced on the spec by developers? Instead of continually screwing BM Hunters on DPS why don't they actually add some nuance to the spec if they feel it is missing? Barbed Shot is a good start, Chimera Shot being baseline would be another good move.

- - - Updated - - -

Your version of "substantially lower" leaves alot to be desired. That's still half of your damage.

No, it is not half your damage, because I said "a lot lower than 50%" and not "50%". Stop skipping over small details to try to exaggerate your point. You shat out a figure into the thread that is flat-out false by a big margin no matter how you look at it.

And yes it is half, counting bestial wrath damage is a joke because it's literally just a button you hit on cooldown. And as for frenzy, even if you're not min/maxing it a noob would be pushing it randomly and buffing attack speed of the pet. Like I've said, the sims have been ran on "frenzy uptime maximization", it doesn't make nearly as much a difference as people think.

They are still things the Hunter has to do manually no matter how you spin it. I'm sure Frost Mage will pull a decent amount if you just press whatever lights up and any noob can do that. They aren't going to stack up to better Frost Mages in raid and probably other specs as well. Skill floors really aren't that relevant when to be competitive in any cutting edge content and not be benched you need to be at the skill ceiling.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I tried to attach an actual data point to this. I took the warcraftlogs ranking for every spec at its 10th percentile and compared it to the 90% data.



As expected, BM is one of the highest but not the highest. And the key takeaway here is that the variance is not that large across all specs. So it's not like crap BM Hunters are doing near equal to good BM Hunters.

[paror]

"don't even main a hunter"... people who main a BM hunter are people who like to play games with cheat codes. I don't need any credit from "main BM hunters". That's worth zero to me. I just think they should stop complaining about being on the bottom of the dps charts, because that is where they belong.

You don't have to main a BM hunter to see the low complexity of the spec. The fact that you can play an alt near optimally with no effort or learning curve is just a testament of how simple the spec is. And a spec which is so extremely effortless should be on the bottom of the dps charts. Simple.

BM is always one of the most played specs in the game. And this is not because of max performance, class fantasy or anything like that. It is because the spec is so effortless and people like that. The path of least resistance. If you made a "dps:effort ratio", BM would be on top by a mile.

Just link me that orange mythic logs. If BM is as easy as you state you surely have orange logs topping out the charts.

[Lodvampire]

The reason people respond like that is because, not only does it seem like you have a personal vendetta against BM, your argument seems to be based in the whole "your pet does all the work!" meme more than anything else. BM really, seriously isn't significantly easier than the average spec. You can swear up and down that the spec is more forgiving than other specs and has a high damage baseline but ultimately to get the most out of the spec you need to put in just as much effort as any other DPS spec. There are several specs in the game that are candidates for being "easier than BM"; Frost Mage is an example. It's usually because BM actually has pretty involved cooldown management and most other specs do not.

BM is one of the most popular specs because, after Legion, it is the most appealing spec to most Hunters because it's most similar to the specs that came before Legion. Before Legion BM would compete with the other specs regularly. In MoP, for example, it was a back-and-forth between BM and SV. Three of the most major selling points for the Hunter class are: being ranged, being mobile, and having pets. BM best represents all three after Legion. It is maximally patronising to pretend that Hunters only play BM because they are all stupid and only want to play easy specs or something.

On that note: no one is actually demanding that BM remain an easy spec/be made easier. BM Hunters didn't ask for the massive pruning in Legion. How does it make sense that the developers "punish" BM Hunters with bad damage and bad scaling for being an easy spec yet all the decisions that made the spec easy were forced on the spec by developers? Instead of continually screwing BM Hunters on DPS why don't they actually add some nuance to the spec if they feel it is missing? Barbed Shot is a good start, Chimera Shot being baseline would be another good move.

- - - Updated - - -



No, it is not half your damage, because I said "a lot lower than 50%" and not "50%". Stop skipping over small details to try to exaggerate your point. You shat out a figure into the thread that is flat-out false by a big margin no matter how you look at it.



They are still things the Hunter has to do manually no matter how you spin it. I'm sure Frost Mage will pull a decent amount if you just press whatever lights up and any noob can do that. They aren't going to stack up to better Frost Mages in raid and probably other specs as well. Skill floors really aren't that relevant when to be competitive in any cutting edge content and not be benched you need to be at the skill ceiling.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I tried to attach an actual data point to this. I took the warcraftlogs ranking for every spec at its 10th percentile and compared it to the 90% data.



As expected, BM is one of the highest but not the highest. And the key takeaway here is that the variance is not that large across all specs. So it's not like crap BM Hunters are doing near equal to good BM Hunters.

Thanks for back me up on this^^

Yeah, i've been playing this since Cata and BM hunter is always my main since then, and I really get just tired to hear this kind of comment, i don't bother anymore to spend time argumenting with people like that.
Before picking BM as my main, i test EVERY class disponible at the time, and choose BM for the Class fantasy (back in the old days of D&D I always role an archer Elf too), since I didn't know nothing about dps, logs, etc at the time anyway.

As for for the subject on this, I already say that a couple of times, but the best and quick solution I think Blizz could make at this time, is give a Buff to BM to stand still, like MM have with lonly wolf to not have a pet active.

I know this was already done in WoD for MM and players didn't like it, but imo, its a good trade off, you can still move all the time, cast everything while move, do mechancis, soak, etc., but, if you wanna max your dps, you gonna need to plan when you gonna move, just like any other class and maybe this stupid meme of been mobile stop for a while. (Its not like when I raid or do M+ I just act like those AI npc's on Islands and keeping jumping and running back and forth all the time anyway)

[Kaver]

Just link me that orange mythic logs. If BM is as easy as you state you surely have orange logs topping out the charts.

Parses have nothing to do with how easy a spec is.
It is BM hunter vs BM hunter.
Please think with your head.

[Lodvampire]

Parses have nothing to do with how easy a spec is. It is BM hunter vs BM hunter.

Parses shows exactly this, how much % you do better against others of the same class/spec. If the spec is easy everyone in every bracket will appear almost the same (orange according to how brain dead BM is).

[Kaver]

Parses shows exactly this, how much % you do better against others of the same class/spec. If the spec is easy everyone in every bracket will appear almost the same (orange according to how brain dead BM is).

It’s an easy spec but bad player will still be bad. A BM hunter can still stand in fire no matter how easy the spec is. So of course there will still be a difference in parses. And parses also depend on how quickly your group kills the boss.

[paror]

It’s an easy spec but bad player will still be bad. A BM hunter can still stand in fire no matter how easy the spec is. So of course there will still be a difference in parses. And parses also depend on how quickly your group kills the boss.

Ah you are one of those. Telling everyone how it is, no facts to back it up. The things you mention: every other class has this as well so what's your point exactly.

[wulzurebrah]

Ah you are one of those. Telling everyone how it is, no facts to back it up. The things you mention: every other class has this as well so what's your point exactly.

the point is he hates bm and wants everyone to know.

[Kaver]

Ah you are one of those. Telling everyone how it is, no facts to back it up. The things you mention: every other class has this as well so what's your point exactly.

That was the point exactly. Every class has it. Someone asked to see orange parses, which is completely irrelevant of how easy a class is. My comment was a response.

The main point however: BM is in the spot it should be on the dps charts so there is nothing to complain about and this thread should be closed.

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the point is he hates bm and wants everyone to know.

I love BM. But it is a completely effortless spec and it has by far the lowest skill cap in the game. Therefore BM should be at the bottom of the dps charts and this thread is therefore pointless.

[TOM_RUS]

Every spec should be within margin of error in terms of DPS, which is 1-2% max.
This should be true for every boss encounter, be it single target, AoE or cleave fight.
And it should not take into account how mobile or easy to play spec is.
Basically golden rules of game design Blizzard fails to understand.

[Kaver]

Every spec should be within margin of error in terms of DPS, which is 1-2% max.
This should be true for every boss encounter, be it single target, AoE or cleave fight.
And it should not take into account how mobile or easy to play spec is.
Basically golden rules of game design Blizzard fails to understand.

Of course the difficulty of a spec should be accounted for.

[Mavick]

No, it is not half your damage, because I said "a lot lower than 50%" and not "50%". Stop skipping over small details to try to exaggerate your point. You shat out a figure into the thread that is flat-out false by a big margin no matter how you look at it.

I just checked a 95th percentile parse of mine on Heroic Blockade. I'm looking at 38% of my total damage from the pet and 12% from Auto-Attack, so 50% of my total damage is superficially "automatic"

You were saying? Plus I've looked at several logs since then and 50% is pretty much the low bar anyway, typically you see anywhere from there to around 60% or so depending on stats like mastery. If you really want to try to argue this point again after the utter failure of those pages feel free, because I sure as hell haven't suddenly decided to start ignoring facts just to feel better about playing a certain spec.

[Azortharion]

Looking at the difference in DPS across percentiles says more about how the different specs scale with better gear than it says about how a spec "scales" with skill. BM scales quite poorly with gear.

[Mardux]

When you start attacking me personally instead of keeping to the subject, you just know it's because I'm right

Ad hominems are necessarily forfeiture. Sometimes you really are quoting a twit. Lodvampire's quote and this quote are only two examples of such times.