Balance Druid M+ tash mobs

[Dudeg]

Hello everyone,
I would very much appreciate any help with playing a Balance Druid in M+ (killing tash mobs only). I have no problems with single target rotation on bosses and maybe cleave one or two mobs with it, but I have such a huge problem figuring out what to do on trash mobs in high keys to pull out decent numbers to compete with other classes.
I tried spamming Starfall at every chance I get after building enough astral power, and tried ignoring Starfall and just doing my normal 1 mob rotation (with all mobs dotted of course) and spamming Starsurge, and lastly I've tried putting up one Starfall at a time and filling with Starsurge.

But what is the optimal way to deal with dpsing trash mobs? All of what I've tried don't bring me close to other classes so I must be doing something wrong? Even on 13 keys fortified so mobs don't die instantly.

I run the following talents: Force of Nature, Incarnation, Twin Moons, and Fury of Elune.

Appreciate any help I can get from experienced fellow Balance dudus out there!!

[Xirrohon]

Boomy doesnt have any burst AOE besides maybe FoE. Ive been thinking of swapping my traits around to using One Power of the Moon and one Lunar Shrapnel. But Im thinking that I am going to need more than 1 LS to see a huge difference. Either way, I smash on the bosses but it feels bad doing like half the AOE of other classes.

[Demonpuke]

This is typical of boomkin. They aren't brought to m+ for their burst aoe, rather for their solar beams, treants, sustained aoe and stupid high boss damage.

If you want more trash damage for fortified weeks, drop the Incarn and pick up Starlord. Make a weakaura to track it, make a macro to cancelaura, and practice managing those Starlord stacks. It takes a bit of self control at first to stop yourself from using astral power as soon as you get it, but eventually you will get the hang of it.

Example: Let's say you are at 3 starlord stacks and there are only 4 seconds left on the buff. You are 1 spell away from capping astral power. You absolutely do NOT want to use an astral spender right now, because it doesn't refresh starlord and you would be throwing away a stack of Starlord for no reason. Instead, use your cancelaura macro to remove the starlord buff entirely, then double starsurge/starfall to get immediately back up to 2 stacks. Now you should only be a couple seconds away from being able to get your 3rd stack up, and if done properly it's not hard to maintain a 3 stack Starlord buff consistently, if not almost indefinitely. When you get comfortable with it you will be able to plan your dot refreshes around some of these last few seconds of Starlord which means you won't have to cancel the buff and you get to keep that haste for another second or two.

I main resto not boomkin, so I'm sure there is a more "pro" optimal way to manage starlord and I'm sure there is a threshold for when it's acceptable to cancel Starlord, but this will definitely increase your aoe damage. You won't beat DH's, but no one can compete with DH's for aoe burst. Let the bursty dps have their fun on trash, then embarrass them on the boss, that's my motto!

Don't be afraid to take aoe traits just because you heard some streamer say they are bad. Check out bloodmallet and you will see that every balance aoe trait is within a margin of each other, and they ARE good traits for aoe, so a healthy mix of ST and aoe traits is a safe bet if you don't want to respec traits each week. Most single target traits don't do well stacked so that's even more incentive to branch out into some aoe traits.

[Dudeg]

Thanks guys for your replies.. I will try out Starlord and see how it is on trash and hopefully I'll be able to push my numbers up.

Thanks again (<3 '.')<3

[groparu]

Thanks for making this post, im having the exact same issue and its seriously depressing to play in M+ anymore.

I ran a manor +10 last night with a combat rogue,retri pala, pala tank,in the end of the dungeon, the damage done was something like:

1. rogue, 48 mil damage done, 31k average dps
2. retri pala 35 mil damage done, 26k average dps
3. me, balance druid 22 mil damage done, 19k average dps
4. tank 17 mil damage done, dont remember the average dps

For rogue, 45% of total damage = blade flurry ; for retri, 44% total damage = divine storm
We timed it with 1 chest and definetly wouldve been 2 chest or even 3 if i wouldve been replaced with another melee.

I tried everything, if attempt to dot atleast 5-6 targets with moonfire and sunfire on all,do 1-2 starfall, by the time things actually start kicking in mobs are pretty much dead.
Tried to replace starfall with starsurges....pretty much same outcome.
Only situations where i could compete was on bosses and 1-3 targets.
I'll prolly just play resto and maybe 8.1.5 or 8.2 will bring some changes, right now, all balance specific azerite traits seem very weak, in S1 with 3 x power of the moon I could crit for 12-15k direct moonfire cast, now this is changed, 1 power of the moon, adds 190 periodic damage on a 400 ilvl azerite item, thts just pathetic.

Any advice would be highly appreciated, I havent ran keys above 12 this season, maybe on high fortified keys balance aoe damage would have time to kick in but im not sure.

[Great Destiny Man]

Thanks for making this post, im having the exact same issue and its seriously depressing to play in M+ anymore.

I ran a manor +10 last night with a combat rogue,retri pala, pala tank,in the end of the dungeon, the damage done was something like:

1. rogue, 48 mil damage done, 31k average dps
2. retri pala 35 mil damage done, 26k average dps
3. me, balance druid 22 mil damage done, 19k average dps
4. tank 17 mil damage done, dont remember the average dps

For rogue, 45% of total damage = blade flurry ; for retri, 44% total damage = divine storm
We timed it with 1 chest and definetly wouldve been 2 chest or even 3 if i wouldve been replaced with another melee.

I tried everything, if attempt to dot atleast 5-6 targets with moonfire and sunfire on all,do 1-2 starfall, by the time things actually start kicking in mobs are pretty much dead.
Tried to replace starfall with starsurges....pretty much same outcome.
Only situations where i could compete was on bosses and 1-3 targets.
I'll prolly just play resto and maybe 8.1.5 or 8.2 will bring some changes, right now, all balance specific azerite traits seem very weak, in S1 with 3 x power of the moon I could crit for 12-15k direct moonfire cast, now this is changed, 1 power of the moon, adds 190 periodic damage on a 400 ilvl azerite item, thts just pathetic.

Any advice would be highly appreciated, I havent ran keys above 12 this season, maybe on high fortified keys balance aoe damage would have time to kick in but im not sure.

You aren't going to compete with classes on AoE if they're bursting them down quickly. That being said, you have to analyse the situation correctly and not waste resources/GCDs pointlessly.

Rule of thumb for fully DoTing a mob is if it won't stay alive longer than 10 seconds, don't do it. Remember to pool Astral power appropriately, blowing all your Astral Power right before you're due to pull a big pack isn't productive.

You're also undervaluing the PoTM trait, while it's generally not worth it to stack more than 1 they changed it so that MF periodic damage can trigger a Lunar Empowerment (whereas before it was direct cast) which makes 1x PotM definitely useful.

[Xirrohon]

Saw that some of top Drus last week were using High Noon and PotM traits. Still wont compete with Outlaw/Ret/SPriest and other big AOE classes. I actually did what groparu suggested and have been running as Resto for M+. Something, Dru is very strong, prob the best at right now.

[Dimmune]

Check out Tettles on Youtube. He does video guides for M+ for Balance druids. Also does a play by play of each trash pull for certain dungeons.

[Demonpuke]

Everyone posting here seems to be making the same mistake over and over again. Balance druids are NOT bursty aoe classes, so stop trying to play them like such. Stop crying about how the melee classes beat you on aoe burst (duh, ever played this game before?). IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, YOU CAN'T BEAT THEM!

I would bet good money that all of you are 1k io scores at best. That means you are doing +10s at best, which is child's play. You see top players talking about balance druids being top tier, but then you wonder how they are top tier when they seem to suck so bad. Let me clarify: those people who rank specs/classes for m+ are talking about the very TOP levels of m+, not some measly "any retard can complete" +10 key. They are talking about +20, +22 and higher keys. Now let's talk about balance druid in +20 keys:

At these levels, those bursty aoe melee classes are going to lose steam very quickly. They blow their load with their cd's, and then that's it for them. Game over for 2-3 mins. The dps meter may SAY they are still doing high damage per second, but the actual reality is that they are doing piss damage per second outside of their cd's, and Damage Per Second (DPS) is an average, not an exact number, so to your eyes it seems they are still doing high damage, but they aren't. This is where Balance starts to really shine.

Sustained damage. Those are the keywords. Balance can sit there and indefinitely keep their dots rolling, keep their starfalls stacked, and every spell they have cleaves automatically. CD based classes will start big, and end low. Balance will start low, and ramp big. The longer mobs live, the better, and in +20s a trash pull can go on for a long time.

Then you have unique balance utility, and at this level of play you are using tactics and strategies, not just yolo'ing it like some brain dead pugger. Take this week's affixes; balance is going to be strong. Tank gets to 30-40 stacks of necrotic, healing cd's are down, tank cd's are down, here comes balance druid to save the day. Treants aoe taunt, tank resets stacks, trash dies = winning. Mobs stuck in sanguine? Druids are one of the few classes that can displace, and being able to aim that displaced mob into a safe location? Only druids can do that. Reaping? Better save those cd's for it. If you hit a reaping stage and treants + beam + FoE are on cd, YOU ARE A BAD PLAYER. Plain and simple. Stop crying, get better.

+10s are equivalent to LFR difficulty (no tactics, no communication, no strats, just yolo), so stop complaining that a damage over TIME class is having trouble when mobs don't live for enough TIME for you to get damage out, it's irrelevant.

The theme of this thread seems to be "I want to do big burst aoe damage and I can't, so Balance druids must suck." If that is what you want, then go play those classes instead of crying on the forums about how "balance is dead till 8.2 hur dur."

I would also bet you are all using single target traits because some stupid wowhead or icy-veins guide said you should. Probably using Incarnation too, because you see those "top players" using Incarn when they run +21 keys.

Yes, my reply is edgy. Stop crying, get better. Common sense and logic are your friends, at least try to use them.

[Kaver]

Everyone posting here seems to be making the same mistake over and over again. Balance druids are NOT bursty aoe classes, so stop trying to play them like such. Stop crying about how the melee classes beat you on aoe burst (duh, ever played this game before?). IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, YOU CAN'T BEAT THEM!

I would bet good money that all of you are 1k io scores at best. That means you are doing +10s at best, which is child's play. You see top players talking about balance druids being top tier, but then you wonder how they are top tier when they seem to suck so bad. Let me clarify: those people who rank specs/classes for m+ are talking about the very TOP levels of m+, not some measly "any retard can complete" +10 key. They are talking about +20, +22 and higher keys. Now let's talk about balance druid in +20 keys:

At these levels, those bursty aoe melee classes are going to lose steam very quickly. They blow their load with their cd's, and then that's it for them. Game over for 2-3 mins. The dps meter may SAY they are still doing high damage per second, but the actual reality is that they are doing piss damage per second outside of their cd's, and Damage Per Second (DPS) is an average, not an exact number, so to your eyes it seems they are still doing high damage, but they aren't. This is where Balance starts to really shine.

Sustained damage. Those are the keywords. Balance can sit there and indefinitely keep their dots rolling, keep their starfalls stacked, and every spell they have cleaves automatically. CD based classes will start big, and end low. Balance will start low, and ramp big. The longer mobs live, the better, and in +20s a trash pull can go on for a long time.

Then you have unique balance utility, and at this level of play you are using tactics and strategies, not just yolo'ing it like some brain dead pugger. Take this week's affixes; balance is going to be strong. Tank gets to 30-40 stacks of necrotic, healing cd's are down, tank cd's are down, here comes balance druid to save the day. Treants aoe taunt, tank resets stacks, trash dies = winning. Mobs stuck in sanguine? Druids are one of the few classes that can displace, and being able to aim that displaced mob into a safe location? Only druids can do that. Reaping? Better save those cd's for it. If you hit a reaping stage and treants + beam + FoE are on cd, YOU ARE A BAD PLAYER. Plain and simple. Stop crying, get better.

+10s are equivalent to LFR difficulty (no tactics, no communication, no strats, just yolo), so stop complaining that a damage over TIME class is having trouble when mobs don't live for enough TIME for you to get damage out, it's irrelevant.

The theme of this thread seems to be "I want to do big burst aoe damage and I can't, so Balance druids must suck." If that is what you want, then go play those classes instead of crying on the forums about how "balance is dead till 8.2 hur dur."

I would also bet you are all using single target traits because some stupid wowhead or icy-veins guide said you should. Probably using Incarnation too, because you see those "top players" using Incarn when they run +21 keys.

Yes, my reply is edgy. Stop crying, get better. Common sense and logic are your friends, at least try to use them.

You seem like a nice guy... someone people love to be around...

[clevin]

You seem like a nice guy... someone people love to be around...

I was going to say the same thing but... that poster is right. Burst AOE isn't a balance druid strength. In Legion, Starfall used to be excellent for lots of damage if you ran into big trash packs so if they lived long enough or you planned it so you had enough AsP when the pack was pulled, you could do burst that way but... not in BfA.

[Sylvaeres]

Everyone posting here seems to be making the same mistake over and over again. Balance druids are NOT bursty aoe classes, so stop trying to play them like such. Stop crying about how the melee classes beat you on aoe burst (duh, ever played this game before?). IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, YOU CAN'T BEAT THEM!

I would bet good money that all of you are 1k io scores at best. That means you are doing +10s at best, which is child's play. You see top players talking about balance druids being top tier, but then you wonder how they are top tier when they seem to suck so bad. Let me clarify: those people who rank specs/classes for m+ are talking about the very TOP levels of m+, not some measly "any retard can complete" +10 key. They are talking about +20, +22 and higher keys. Now let's talk about balance druid in +20 keys:

At these levels, those bursty aoe melee classes are going to lose steam very quickly. They blow their load with their cd's, and then that's it for them. Game over for 2-3 mins. The dps meter may SAY they are still doing high damage per second, but the actual reality is that they are doing piss damage per second outside of their cd's, and Damage Per Second (DPS) is an average, not an exact number, so to your eyes it seems they are still doing high damage, but they aren't. This is where Balance starts to really shine.

Sustained damage. Those are the keywords. Balance can sit there and indefinitely keep their dots rolling, keep their starfalls stacked, and every spell they have cleaves automatically. CD based classes will start big, and end low. Balance will start low, and ramp big. The longer mobs live, the better, and in +20s a trash pull can go on for a long time.

Then you have unique balance utility, and at this level of play you are using tactics and strategies, not just yolo'ing it like some brain dead pugger. Take this week's affixes; balance is going to be strong. Tank gets to 30-40 stacks of necrotic, healing cd's are down, tank cd's are down, here comes balance druid to save the day. Treants aoe taunt, tank resets stacks, trash dies = winning. Mobs stuck in sanguine? Druids are one of the few classes that can displace, and being able to aim that displaced mob into a safe location? Only druids can do that. Reaping? Better save those cd's for it. If you hit a reaping stage and treants + beam + FoE are on cd, YOU ARE A BAD PLAYER. Plain and simple. Stop crying, get better.

+10s are equivalent to LFR difficulty (no tactics, no communication, no strats, just yolo), so stop complaining that a damage over TIME class is having trouble when mobs don't live for enough TIME for you to get damage out, it's irrelevant.

The theme of this thread seems to be "I want to do big burst aoe damage and I can't, so Balance druids must suck." If that is what you want, then go play those classes instead of crying on the forums about how "balance is dead till 8.2 hur dur."

I would also bet you are all using single target traits because some stupid wowhead or icy-veins guide said you should. Probably using Incarnation too, because you see those "top players" using Incarn when they run +21 keys.

Yes, my reply is edgy. Stop crying, get better. Common sense and logic are your friends, at least try to use them.

I'm 100% certain that you're compensating for something with this nonsensical response. While you gave some decent information here, the manner in which you delivered it screams "I lack social skills in the outside world and therefore my anger manifests itself by acting like a jackass in video games and on forums. Give me attention please".

[Fartoo]

If you're expecting to have the same burst dps as DHs, ret palas or outlaw rogue, you're playing the class wrong. If you're playing the class the way it's supposed to be played, in the end of the dungeon you should be about the same on overall damage as the rest, atleast I am in almost every key I did. If I start feeling bad about my deeps when DHs are destroying the trash, I just remember that I burst 50k on bosses and that they don't get even close to my damage, and it's all good again. Don't feel bad about the things you're not supposed to be doing. DHs aren't going to push mobs out of sanguini pools, rogues wont save the tank from necrotic stacks with treants and paladins wont beam reaping packs. So keep destroying those bosses and using your utilities (don't forget soothe as most druids I meet do) and you'll be fine.

[cface]

I would also bet you are all using single target traits because some stupid wowhead or icy-veins guide said you should. Probably using Incarnation too, because you see those "top players" using Incarn when they run +21 keys.

Yes, my reply is edgy. Stop crying, get better.

So where can I read up on all this shit? dreamgrove doesn't mention jack for m+ except the standard incarnaction build. Are there resources out there that I have missed?

[exochaft]

So where can I read up on all this shit? dreamgrove doesn't mention jack for m+ except the standard incarnaction build. Are there resources out there that I have missed?

For most people, the standard ST build works well because you aren't in the dungeon to be the top AoE damage and will dominate on ST scenarios. Honestly, unless someone else is better equipped to push the ST damage in your M+ group, you should be focusing on that role for the most part.

For most keys, my boomy cannot even compete on trash/AoE/reaping packs compared to my outlaw rogue... however, my rogue cannot compete with my boomy's ST capabilities. However, this is for +15 keys and below, where the lifespan of most trash and bosses is very short. I'd say in general between these two chars I like to play, over time the gap between the damage potentially of these two becomes more narrow, but my druid will still excel in ST scenarios and my rogue will still excel at AoE scenarios. It's just how the classes are designed. However, it still comes down to what the groups needs or lacks, and you can adjust your gear and talents to help compensate while still realizing the limits of your class/spec.

*edit* - Figured I'd throw this in for fun: the best thing you can do to stop psyching yourself out is turn off your damage meter. I think most players get into the habit of watching their damage meter pull to pull, and they noticed (in the case of a boomy) that their damage seems absolutely terrible on trash when you don't have CDs and those DH/rogue/etc. damage bars are huuuuuuuge while yours is on par with the tank. You get to bosses, and you're certainly ahead of everyone, but the difference in those damage bars isn't nearly as large as on trash packs. However, this is very deceiving, as even though I experience seeing this pull to pull, I'm generally top overall damage in the dungeon as a boomy.

The problem is that the trash burst damage is a snapshot on relatively low HP mobs, and your ST damage more than makes up the difference on bosses with massively more HP that live much longer. While that DH did 150k DPS on that trash pack, he only did 300k more damage than you did while doing 30k DPS. While the DH DPS on the boss is a little lower than yours (but not by that big of an extreme), you still did 1mil more damage than they did. This psych-out is more prevalent in this season due to reaping (aka, 3-4 extra pulls of mass AoEing low HP mobs), but in general your ST damage is very valuable in M+.

[trapmaster]

Thanks for making this post, im having the exact same issue and its seriously depressing to play in M+ anymore.

I ran a manor +10 last night with a combat rogue,retri pala, pala tank,in the end of the dungeon, the damage done was something like:

1. rogue, 48 mil damage done, 31k average dps
2. retri pala 35 mil damage done, 26k average dps
3. me, balance druid 22 mil damage done, 19k average dps
4. tank 17 mil damage done, dont remember the average dps

For rogue, 45% of total damage = blade flurry ; for retri, 44% total damage = divine storm
We timed it with 1 chest and definetly wouldve been 2 chest or even 3 if i wouldve been replaced with another melee.

I tried everything, if attempt to dot atleast 5-6 targets with moonfire and sunfire on all,do 1-2 starfall, by the time things actually start kicking in mobs are pretty much dead.
Tried to replace starfall with starsurges....pretty much same outcome.
Only situations where i could compete was on bosses and 1-3 targets.
I'll prolly just play resto and maybe 8.1.5 or 8.2 will bring some changes, right now, all balance specific azerite traits seem very weak, in S1 with 3 x power of the moon I could crit for 12-15k direct moonfire cast, now this is changed, 1 power of the moon, adds 190 periodic damage on a 400 ilvl azerite item, thts just pathetic.

Any advice would be highly appreciated, I havent ran keys above 12 this season, maybe on high fortified keys balance aoe damage would have time to kick in but im not sure.

Boomkin dps are equal to holy priest + protection pally dps you know? We are hitting so wet noodles.

[ydraw]

Check out Tettles on Youtube. He does video guides for M+ for Balance druids. Also does a play by play of each trash pull for certain dungeons.

In all honestly it probably won't be a lot of help since Tettles' group is designing their pulls around Tettle's incarnation cooldown. The biggest reason our damage sucks on trash is that most of our damage happens inside incarnation windows, and for us to be competitive with burst specs, there needs to be 6-7 mobs around when incarnation is up.

[huth]

Boomkin dps are equal to holy priest + protection pally dps you know? We are hitting so wet noodles.

Not even if they pool their damage. groparu's group already had their AoE needs met, it's likely that another AoE would actually have slowed them down, especially a melee when they already have 2.

We're just in the somewhat unusual position of being a primarily single target spec that is functionally unable to not cleave.

[Vileanger]

I think people still thinks boomies are good shape as in Legion AoE wise. We're not. I just returned game and started improving my r.io and im usually using incarn build due to i have a mage premade so he and 3rd pug player can do burst aoe and i can focus to bosses. For an example in reaping packs i can get thru 60-65k when my frost mage buddy doin 110-110k's. I don't play starlord usually due to it sims closer to incarn and i don't really care minimal dps changes in 12-15 keystone range. People need to realise their roles in dg's. Mostly i get 3rd place unfortunately but overall damages are close.

If you can't do ST damage in DG's thats the real problem tho. Your sustain aoe + your incredible utility is enough to do. Nobody gonna complain.

[apkwebs]

I personaly dont like last surprise its too random, but if you can choose go with hell chains its good for aoe and st.