Black Empire is a way out? (And alternatives)

[VladlTutushkin]

Throwing some controversy here. Maybe some players will like i dont know.
So in light of current events i saw a growing number of players stating that as a matter of fact Horde currently (and before) is actually an “apocalypse level threat” to the Alliance. Which is especially true with current “take no prisonoers, rise the corpses” Horde (aka Scourge Lite). I also heard a few players stating that saving world is not worth it for Alliance if Horde (in its current iteration) also shares it with us, since we will be eventually backstabbed and suffer unknown but obviously huge amounts of damage, losing land and people. While nations of the Alliance already homeless refugees living on scraps in Stormwind like Gilneans or Night Elfs. Void Elfs also pariahs in their land and foced to leave. Only Dwarves are still in good shape and i bet they will get their homes burned/ruined soon too. Humans are fine (always).
So to the topic of the post...
Why wouldnt Alliance actually do a twist and... ally with next Big Bad? Sounds weird? Unrealistic? Why not though? Join with Azshara - old Queen did less harm to “current” NE then Sylvanas or Anduin. Yes that will be slightly humiliating to beg her forgivness byt not like NE race and players have any pride left anyway. Kul’Tirans are already sea worshippers. Anduin can be a leader of “good-good” part of the Alliance and refuse to join forces with “evil” but why should all other races suffer and die fighting against “big threats” if in an aftermath they will be stabbed by the Horde and left to hang by their High King, denied vengeance or meaningful restoration? Or if Old Gods and tentacles are not up your alley... Why not join some radical Light faction? Pull the Yrel forces from the Draenor, throw in Scarlet Crusade reformed in Stormwind from countless war refugees and raging fanatics who had enough of this peacenick crap that Anduin issues. Night Elfs can join on a basis that Elune is kinda Light alligned or just because they are against Horde i guess.
So, whats your opinion on that? Any ideas/suggestions?
P.S.
As president Putin said recently “World without my country in it is not worth existing. They will go to hell and we as martyrs go to heaven.” (very rough translation) basically hinting that without Russia he would prefer Earth to be a post-nuke Wasteland.

[Varodoc]

I hope that the Gift of N'zoth storyline leads to something big. My Void Elf character would love the opportunity to dump Disney Golden Child and join N'zoth. Frankly it doesn't seem so bad. The Naga under N'zoth recovered from near-extinction and rose to become one of the most powerful and prolific races in the world. In light of this, would serving N'zoth be that bad?

Bear with me, but I'd rather serve N'zoth, a smart, calculating, and elusive God, than Anduin, the dumbass who was played like a violin by Sylvanas. So Yes, I fully hope that many in the Alliance leave the sinking ship and join N'zoth instead, like Azshara did 10.000 years ago. Why do we keep following Anduin and the Humans when they doomed the Kaldorei with their stupidity (looking at Shaw screwing up in the War of Thorns). At this point, Anduin and the Humans have caused more harm to the non-Human Alliance races than N'zoth.

Funny how the game wants the player to hate N'zoth, and yet N'zoth isn't shown to be such a bad choice. He gets results, and those who serve him gain astonishing powers, as can be seen by the Naga and the Black Dragons. And what did Azshara and the Naga pay for their newfound power? They seem to retain their free-will, since there's one Naga who turned rogue and joined Neptulon if I am not mistaken.

[VladlTutushkin]

I hope that the Gift of N'zoth storyline leads to something big. My Void Elf character would love the opportunity to dump Disney Golden Child and join N'zoth. Frankly it doesn't seem so bad. The Naga under N'zoth recovered from near-extinction and rose to become one of the most powerful and prolific races in the world. In light of this, would serving N'zoth be that bad?

Bear with me, but I'd rather serve N'zoth, a smart, calculating, and elusive God, than Anduin, the dumbass who was played like a violin by Sylvanas. So Yes, I fully hope that many in the Alliance leave the sinking ship and join N'zoth instead, like Azshara did 10.000 years ago. Why do we keep following Anduin and the Humans when they doomed the Kaldorei with their stupidity (looking at Shaw screwing up in the War of Thorns). At this point, Anduin and the Humans have caused more harm to the non-Human Alliance races than N'zoth.

Funny how the game wants the player to hate N'zoth, and yet N'zoth isn't shown to be such a bad choice. He gets results, and those who serve him gain astonishing powers, as can be seen by the Naga and the Black Dragons. And what did Azshara and the Naga pay for their newfound power? They seem to retain their free-will, since there's one Naga who turned rogue and joined Neptulon if I am not mistaken.

Yes and those Naga who joined Illidan also kinda not serving N’zoth directly and yet still alive and well. And yes there was naga who deserted to Neptulon (got busted by other naga but still...)

[Florena]

I hope that the Gift of N'zoth storyline leads to something big. My Void Elf character would love the opportunity to dump Disney Golden Child and join N'zoth. Frankly it doesn't seem so bad. The Naga under N'zoth recovered from near-extinction and rose to become one of the most powerful and prolific races in the world. In light of this, would serving N'zoth be that bad?

Bear with me, but I'd rather serve N'zoth, a smart, calculating, and elusive God, than Anduin, the dumbass who was played like a violin by Sylvanas. So Yes, I fully hope that many in the Alliance leave the sinking ship and join N'zoth instead, like Azshara did 10.000 years ago. Why do we keep following Anduin and the Humans when they doomed the Kaldorei with their stupidity (looking at Shaw screwing up in the War of Thorns). At this point, Anduin and the Humans have caused more harm to the non-Human Alliance races than N'zoth.

Funny how the game wants the player to hate N'zoth, and yet N'zoth isn't shown to be such a bad choice. He gets results, and those who serve him gain astonishing powers, as can be seen by the Naga and the Black Dragons. And what did Azshara and the Naga pay for their newfound power? They seem to retain their free-will, since there's one Naga who turned rogue and joined Neptulon if I am not mistaken.

Sure, until you think for two seconds about the kind of world that an old god would make and the consequences of said old god corrupting the world soul of Azeroth. If your old god wants to serve N'zoth the whispers must have eroded their mind pretty good.

[Dakhath]

How are Naga one of the most powerful and proliific races in the world? Every time they've made a move onto land, they get beat back by some regional power. Not even the full might of one of the factions, just whatever area happens to occupy the area of the assault. They rule the ocean because nobody gives a shit about the ocean.

[Varodoc]

Sure, until you think for two seconds about the kind of world that an old god would make and the consequences of said old god corrupting the world soul of Azeroth. If your old god wants to serve N'zoth the whispers must have eroded their mind pretty good.

As opposed to the Forsaken winning and everyone being forced to serve the Lich Queen, starting from the people of Stormwind? Thank you very much, but I'd prefer an Old God victory than a Forsaken victory. At least I get to keep my free will.

How are Naga one of the most powerful and proliific races in the world? Every time they've made a move onto land, they get beat back by some regional power. Not even the full might of one of the factions, just whatever area happens to occupy the area of the assault. They rule the ocean because nobody gives a shit about the ocean.

They have remained uscathed through most conflicts, so they have had 10.000 years to grow in population without any interference. And of course they got beaten back by regional powers, they never showed their full might. The expedition in Legion were but a fraction of the Naga army led by Tidemistress Athissa. Their attacks on the Kul Tirans and Zandalari were once again led by fractions of the army, not the bulk.

No one gives a shit about the ocean? Except Neptulon and his elementals, the Kul Tirans, the Zandalari, the Alliance, and the Horde.

[Super Dickmann]

I can sympathize. I know I'd prefer the Horde getting Nero Decree'd to becoming an Alliance colony because of muh honor at the end of this. Neither will happen though.

Discussing the concept outside of preferences, I'd like to see the Alliance interact more with Bolvar.

[VladlTutushkin]

I can sympathize. I know I'd prefer the Horde getting Nero Decree'd to becoming an Alliance colony because of muh honor at the end of this. Neither will happen though.

Discussing the concept outside of preferences, I'd like to see the Alliance interact more with Bolvar.

Spare me this "Alliance colony" stuff. Even in worst days of SoO Horde was just sliiiightly bowing its head to make sure Alliance goes and dies there on the Garroshe's blades so Horde wouldnt. When i play Horde i never felt like faction was a colony or bowing to Alliance. Even when it wasnt playing the first role it was strong, it was original and it was well-defended. When i play Alliance i feel the world tightening around me - bits and piece falling apart and entire races being herded to Stormwind to sulk there with their unhealed wounds and empty stomaches. Enemies surround the land and people have no hope against them because of how weak High King is and how limpid responses are. Actually Alliance now "the honorable underdog faction" and was this way since Cata. But unlike Horde we do not have Thrall to make it better.
But your idea about Bolvar is kinda good, although i would prefer Yrel or Void stuff.

[Varodoc]

In a normal story, you would be rooting for the young King against the evil and tainted God. Interesting how Blizzard has made many Alliance players welcome even the villain bat if only to get rid of the Disney Golden Child.

[VladlTutushkin]

In a normal story, you would be rooting for the young King against the evil and tainted God. Interesting how Blizzard has made many Alliance players welcome even the villain bat if only to get rid of the Disney Golden Child.

Because it came to the point where self preservation is more vital then preservation of the world, since nobdy can guarantee your race's survival (as we saw with night elfs currently.) I remeber one post where it was discussed why Horde is completely insane and cant enter Cold War because MAD (*Mutually Assured Destruction) is not wroking with them! Each time they get MAD level stuff they just use it non stop! Mana-Nukes? They use them. Sha-Cursed relics of Mogu? They use it. Azerite? They use it! Basically its impossible to make them stop, they dont listen to words and "precision strikes" dont work on them either so only way is total war undtil world is dead or they are dead.

[Florena]

Just wait, Azshara and N'zoth will end up as loot pinatas sooner or later, but the Alliance and Horde will still be going strong.

[VladlTutushkin]

Just wait, Azshara and N'zoth will end up as loot pinatas sooner or later, but the Alliance and Horde will still be going strong.

Alliance and "going strong" in one sentence is a wrong statement. Alliance never goes strong.

[Aresk]

Why wouldnt Alliance actually do a twist and... ally with next Big Bad? Sounds weird? Unrealistic? Why not though? Join with Azshara - old Queen did less harm to “current” NE then Sylvanas or Anduin.

Azshara's actions have split the elves into multiple factions (kal'dorei, quel'dorei, and shal'dorei). Her alliance with the Burning Legion further split some elves into satyrs. Her alliance with Nzoth have caused elves to be turned into naga. She destroyed a giant empire that spanned most of the central world. Meanwhile Sylvanas burned a tree that had stood for around twenty years and Anduin failed to stop her. Not to mention that Azshara has continued to attack the NE lands along the coast, even confronting Malfurion in Darkshore back during Cataclysm.

I like the idea of adding more conflict within the Alliance, and who doesn't like Old God tentacles? But I just don't see the alliance with Azshara marking narrative sense (not that this has ever stopped Blizzard in the past).

[VladlTutushkin]

Azshara's actions have split the elves into multiple factions (kal'dorei, quel'dorei, and shal'dorei). Her alliance with the Burning Legion further split some elves into satyrs. Her alliance with Nzoth have caused elves to be turned into naga. She destroyed a giant empire that spanned most of the central world. Meanwhile Sylvanas burned a tree that had stood for around twenty years and Anduin failed to stop her. Not to mention that Azshara has continued to attack the NE lands along the coast, even confronting Malfurion in Darkshore back during Cataclysm.

I like the idea of adding more conflict within the Alliance, and who doesn't like Old God tentacles? But I just don't see the alliance with Azshara marking narrative sense (not that this has ever stopped Blizzard in the past).

Alliance dosent need internal conflict as much as they need to finally stop stabbing themself in the feet. That "conflict" must lead to a great rise of revenge through extremely questionable and dark means , to make sure they bloody survive. Plus as i said Super-Light faction of fanatics is also good enough for me. And maybe i am wrong but in percentage Sylvanas killed more then Azshara? If we count all the dead and then compare the percent... Sylvanas currently stands at 1/3 dead plus some number risen.

[Super Dickmann]

Spare me this "Alliance colony" stuff. Even in worst days of SoO Horde was just sliiiightly bowing its head to make sure Alliance goes and dies there on the Garroshe's blades so Horde wouldnt. When i play Horde i never felt like faction was a colony or bowing to Alliance. Even when it wasnt playing the first role it was strong, it was original and it was well-defended. When i play Alliance i feel the world tightening around me - bits and piece falling apart and entire races being herded to Stormwind to sulk there with their unhealed wounds and empty stomaches. Enemies surround the land and people have no hope against them because of how weak High King is and how limpid responses are. Actually Alliance now "the honorable underdog faction" and was this way since Cata. But unlike Horde we do not have Thrall to make it better.

Underdog is a weird term, with the exception of Cataclysm and an off-handed few lines in Mists, the Alliance is depicted as more powerful. This isn't really a downside, it logically should be, but it causes a lot of plot problems. All the problems you note though are problems that will spread to the Horde, hence why I'd rather not have them here.

But your idea about Bolvar is kinda good, although i would prefer Yrel or Void stuff.

Both would work. Yrel is a weird case because i can't see her tolerating the void elves and rightly so. Teaming up with void ethereals and that kind of thing could work in that vein since Alleria has already been alluded to being capable of usurping N'zoth.

The reason I like Bolvar is because the retconned Arthas take in Chronicle would fit with the Alliance about as much as any undead do. I.e, seeing undeath as an extension of their duty to protect. Bolvar can easily occupy the same mindset and they wouldn't introduce Taelia if they were never going to interact.

[VladlTutushkin]

Underdog is a weird term, with the exception of Cataclysm and an off-handed few lines in Mists, the Alliance is depicted as more powerful. This isn't really a downside, it logically should be, but it causes a lot of plot problems. All the problems you note though are problems that will spread to the Horde, hence why I'd rather not have them here.



Both would work. Yrel is a weird case because i can't see her tolerating the void elves and rightly so. Teaming up with void ethereals and that kind of thing could work in that vein since Alleria has already been alluded to being capable of usurping N'zoth.

The reason I like Bolvar is because the retconned Arthas take in Chronicle would fit with the Alliance about as much as any undead do. I.e, seeing undeath as an extension of their duty to protect. Bolvar can easily occupy the same mindset and they wouldn't introduce Taelia if they were never going to interact.

More powerful? Where? Alliance has whole zones which are famine and poverty stricken while Horde despite being maybe (maybe) less powerful always has things tight in the fist and never lets anybody thread on them and if somebody does they murder them to death and satisfy even most raging hate boners while Alliance constalty turns to needless appeasing and spineless defeatism giving up on a fight because enemy will feel bad or doing some clearly suicidal moves. Or even helping an enemy who REALLY does nothing to warrant that. (Btw Baine and Jaina? Baine literally owes Jaina more gold then he can earn in a decade, if you want to be that shallow.) Velonara wuest incoming for example. Alliance just feels like a huge, brightly colored punching bag open for every strike and weakly swinging back. Every time Horde is defeated is either due to Horde infighting or because Horde already “got what they wanted” and we only score pathetic Pyrrhic vcitory. Oh and later Anduin comes to rain on our quite gloomy parade to make it even worse. I literally cant enjoy the game as Alliance and cant enjoy it as a Horde for two separate but after all linked reasons.

- - - Updated - - -

P.S.
She can went ham on Void Elfs but then for example Naaru can talk to her and tell her how they (as she knows) have two sides so Void Elfs are necessary evil and will work under strict watch of Light for the greater good of the people. So kinda like “sanctioned psykers” or mutants in Imperium.

[Super Dickmann]

She can went ham on Void Elfs but then for example Naaru can talk to her and tell her how they (as she knows) have two sides so Void Elfs are necessary evil and will work under strict watch of Light for the greater good of the people. So kinda like “sanctioned psykers” or mutants in Imperium.

Since we're not gonna get anywhere on the earlier topic since it's just our feelings on the factions, I'm cutting to this one.

The sanctioned psyker approach would be a good idea, ditto with a riff on daemon hosts. Be it binding demon hunters or void elves in a way similar to how the Qunari do their mages in Dragon Age, or flat out using purified demons as shock troops. What matters is that she needs to actually get a warm reception, which the Alliance will obviously not do because of the ditch you describe, but would nevertheless be interesting plot-wise. Though my personal wish fulfillment in things that won't happen to the Alliance is for a popular uprising after Anduin decides to start paying reparations to the Horde, simultaneously with a house of nobles one for the same reason.

[VladlTutushkin]

Since we're not gonna get anywhere on the earlier topic since it's just our feelings on the factions, I'm cutting to this one.

The sanctioned psyker approach would be a good idea, ditto with a riff on daemon hosts. Be it binding demon hunters or void elves in a way similar to how the Qunari do their mages in Dragon Age, or flat out using purified demons as shock troops. What matters is that she needs to actually get a warm reception, which the Alliance will obviously not do because of the ditch you describe, but would nevertheless be interesting plot-wise. Though my personal wish fulfillment in things that won't happen to the Alliance is for a popular uprising after Anduin decides to start paying reparations to the Horde, simultaneously with a house of nobles one for the same reason.

Basically Anduin trying something dumb (dumber then he did before) and getting exiled from the faction and allowed to go on his merry way to spread the greater good as he wants while Alliance sits down with their minds wnadering all over the place about “what to do” and then Yrel busts in with her army and leads the way not as High King but as someone who will finally bring some semblance of safety to the Alliance through quick and merciless reponse to agression. And i think you CAN agree with me. Horde feels good to play as because they are safe and decisive but REALLY BAD to play as because they constantly doing really, really dark shit for crappy reasons and Alliance feels good to play because they are not crazy but bad because they fucken limp and appeasing and cant play tough even for survival and suffer needlessly.
And maybe not binding but doing as humans of White Chantey do - organising Circles and such. Hell DH should be fine with them because they have “purified” demons so DH can be equally purified.

[UnluckyAmateur]

How are Naga one of the most powerful and proliific races in the world? Every time they've made a move onto land, they get beat back by some regional power. Not even the full might of one of the factions, just whatever area happens to occupy the area of the assault. They rule the ocean because nobody gives a shit about the ocean.

The sad truth, as powerful as azshara is, the race is kinda weak as fuck overall.

[Jastall]

In a normal story, you would be rooting for the young King against the evil and tainted God. Interesting how Blizzard has made many Alliance players welcome even the villain bat if only to get rid of the Disney Golden Child.

Blizzard has made almost every player, regardless of faction, pine for the good old days of punching the monster of the week in the face because simple as it is, it's something far less likely for them to fuck up than the pathetic excuse for a faction war we have now.

Not that you're wrong, wanting to get rid of Saint Anduin is a worthy cause, but the sentiment is in no way limited to the Alliance.