What is normal DPS in full Naxx gear

[Rusken]

What we can determine from this thread is that no one has the foggiest idea of what "average" Naxx DPS actually was. This video (Which I believe is a Private Server) shows a Fury Warr with high-end gear (2x Misplaced Servo Arms) pulling just over 1k. The DPS meters are full of Rogues and Fury which all seem to be averaging similar DPS.

Keep in mind this is Loatheb who has big DPS buffs throughout the fight. I couldn't imagine seeing many people topping 700-800 without fight mechanics like that.

[Storfan]

What we can determine from this thread is that no one has the foggiest idea of what "average" Naxx DPS actually was. This video (Which I believe is a Private Server) shows a Fury Warr with high-end gear (2x Misplaced Servo Arms) pulling just over 1k. The DPS meters are full of Rogues and Fury which all seem to be averaging similar DPS.

Keep in mind this is Loatheb who has big DPS buffs throughout the fight. I couldn't imagine seeing many people topping 700-800 without fight mechanics like that.

The guy is horde and with no worldbuffs though. Worldbuffs make an absolutely HUGE difference.

[dreamdaddy]

FruitNut over on youtube has some videos where he runs various classes against a Patchwerk fight (with typical raid buffs but not world buffs) in PreRaid BIS, BWL gear, and Naxx BIS gear.

Here's his shadowpriest video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI4i1b0N3dk

His Fury Warrior only pulled 8-900 dps. The fire mage pulled 1200. World buffs are massive though. Huge attack power and haste buffs.

[garicasha]

Well that's the kind of video I'm looking for, although the results aren't jiving. He did 750 in BWL gear and 800 in BiS Naxx gear. Although I've heard shadow priests scaled poorly with gear that seems pretty harsh. More importantly though, the videos I've watched of actual vanilla don't have the shadow priests nearly that high. But shadow also probably does gain much more from short fights as their mana issues are so severe. Also, the TOP parse on an extra-curricular website for shadow is 834 on Patchwerk, with the #16 parse already under 600. (Warrior top parse is 1800, Rogue ~1700, Hunter ~1300, Druid ~900, Mage 3000!!!, Warlock 1600, Paladin 600, Shaman 1000)

Rallying Cry of the Dragonslayer (Ony or Nef): 10% Spell Crit, 5% melee and ranged crit, 140 attack power (Looks like rogues had about ~350 attack power in pre-raid gear +whatever they had innately)
Spirit of Zandalar: 10% move speed, 15% all stats
Songflower Serenade: 15% stats

Sheesh no wonder I'm having trouble getting answers on this. Can you imagine a modern world-first guild getting roughly 10% crit and +30% to all stats from buffs?


Moving on, man the difference in Patchwerk kill times. A guild that is killing him in 2.5 minutes has to do 7/2.5 = 2.8x as much damage as a guild that killed him in 7. That works out to people going from what...25 toons doing 500 DPS to 30 toons all doing 1166 DPS. That's a huge increase. People on private servers are clearly doing this but I'm unsure if it's because of insane gear levels, private servers being different from vanilla, ridiculous raid stacking, or our knowledge of gearing is really just that much better.

Random links I want to save:
PreRaid gear
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...iS8/edit#gid=0
https://imgur.com/gallery/BhKV0

[Thunderball]

private servers being different from vanilla, ridiculous raid stacking, or our knowledge of gearing is really just that much better.

All of that. Mostly last two tho, cant write off private server to Classic changes actually being buffs in terms of performance.

[Storfan]

Well that's the kind of video I'm looking for, although the results aren't jiving. He did 750 in BWL gear and 800 in BiS Naxx gear. Although I've heard shadow priests scaled poorly with gear that seems pretty harsh. More importantly though, the videos I've watched of actual vanilla don't have the shadow priests nearly that high. But shadow also probably does gain much more from short fights as their mana issues are so severe. Also, the TOP parse on an extra-curricular website for shadow is 834 on Patchwerk, with the #16 parse already under 600. (Warrior top parse is 1800, Rogue ~1700, Hunter ~1300, Druid ~900, Mage 3000!!!, Warlock 1600, Paladin 600, Shaman 1000)

Rallying Cry of the Dragonslayer (Ony or Nef): 10% Spell Crit, 5% melee and ranged crit, 140 attack power (Looks like rogues had about ~350 attack power in pre-raid gear +whatever they had innately)
Spirit of Zandalar: 10% move speed, 15% all stats
Songflower Serenade: 15% stats

Sheesh no wonder I'm having trouble getting answers on this. Can you imagine a modern world-first guild getting roughly 10% crit and +30% to all stats from buffs?


Moving on, man the difference in Patchwerk kill times. A guild that is killing him in 2.5 minutes has to do 7/2.5 = 2.8x as much damage as a guild that killed him in 7. That works out to people going from what...25 toons doing 500 DPS to 30 toons all doing 1166 DPS. That's a huge increase. People on private servers are clearly doing this but I'm unsure if it's because of insane gear levels, private servers being different from vanilla, ridiculous raid stacking, or our knowledge of gearing is really just that much better.

Random links I want to save:
PreRaid gear
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...iS8/edit#gid=0
https://imgur.com/gallery/BhKV0

Also consider the following factors:

1. Armor values and resistances of bosses in private servers are (probably) correct but we dont know 100% for certain. (I am pretty sure Kronos uses lower armor values on their bosses than Lightshope/Lightbringer (Old n*stalrius core)

2. Raids on private servers are stupidly optimized. Everyone perform their class with the optimal raid spec, no meme-specs, no pvp-specs, no frost mages (which suck in Naxx).

3. All tanks (And I do mean ALL) on private servers that are farming Naxx are dualwield tanks with Fury/prot-defiance spec, thus being able to produce ALOT more threat and DPS than a regular protection tank. This means instead of bringing 4-5 sub-optimal protection tanks you only have 100% fury warriors being able to produce maximum DPS when not tanking and still producing really good DPS even when tanking.

4. Private server raids often use less healers than retail vanilla raids did, mostly because private server healers are:
- a) Simply put, better and more experienced players than their counter parts in vanilla.
- b) Better geared/optimized spec

5. The log parses on legacyplayers are very much made of characters/guilds that has been farming Naxx for 1-2 years already, having had 4x the time to farm absolute full 100% BIS gear from Naxx in comparison to the vanilla naxx raiders who only had 7 months of Raiding Naxx before TBC hit. I've been farming Naxx since Fall 2017, almost 1.5 years. I have full BIS tank set and I'm missing 1-2 pieces for fury BIS.

[VanishingAct]

Also consider the following factors:

1. Armor values and resistances of bosses in private servers are (probably) correct but we dont know 100% for certain. (I am pretty sure Kronos uses lower armor values on their bosses than Lightshope/Lightbringer (Old n*stalrius core)

2. Raids on private servers are stupidly optimized. Everyone perform their class with the optimal raid spec, no meme-specs, no pvp-specs, no frost mages (which suck in Naxx).

3. All tanks (And I do mean ALL) on private servers that are farming Naxx are dualwield tanks with Fury/prot-defiance spec, thus being able to produce ALOT more threat and DPS than a regular protection tank. This means instead of bringing 4-5 sub-optimal protection tanks you only have 100% fury warriors being able to produce maximum DPS when not tanking and still producing really good DPS even when tanking.

4. Private server raids often use less healers than retail vanilla raids did, mostly because private server healers are:
- a) Simply put, better and more experienced players than their counter parts in vanilla.
- b) Better geared/optimized spec

5. The log parses on legacyplayers are very much made of characters/guilds that has been farming Naxx for 1-2 years already, having had 4x the time to farm absolute full 100% BIS gear from Naxx in comparison to the vanilla naxx raiders who only had 7 months of Raiding Naxx before TBC hit. I've been farming Naxx since Fall 2017, almost 1.5 years. I have full BIS tank set and I'm missing 1-2 pieces for fury BIS.

Besides the difference in values that there will inevitably be in classic, expect the same for the self proclaimed hardcore guilds when classic servers are up. It will be mixes of old vanilla players and experienced pserver players doing exactly that. Certainly going to be a lot more than 1% of the playerbase beating naxx this time around

[dreamdaddy]

3. All tanks (And I do mean ALL) on private servers that are farming Naxx are dualwield tanks with Fury/prot-defiance spec, thus being able to produce ALOT more threat and DPS than a regular protection tank. This means instead of bringing 4-5 sub-optimal protection tanks you only have 100% fury warriors being able to produce maximum DPS when not tanking and still producing really good DPS even when tanking.

To piggy-back on this, before everyone has Naxx gear fully farmed out, it won't be surprising to see guilds use at least 1 bear druid as the MT when the fight begins because their threat gen is much, much better than pure prot, especially at lower gear levels, and it only requires the druid farming MCPs. There are certainly fights in MC/BWL where you want a Prot War over a Bear, but since threat generation is such a bottleneck in Vanilla, people will no doubt get creative.

[kamuimac]

I want to communicate to new players how big the discrepancy in classes was but I keep getting info that’s absurdly detailed or fanatics for off-specs that claim they can do great DPS if they’re dual-wielding Atiesh on the first full moon of the galactic ecliptic.

Edited: original numbers were too high...still don't know if they're right, but they're closer: There's also an inherent problem in the question (fewer than 1% of players raided Naxx so it wasn't 'normal' to even be in there, and when they were, they tended to have tons of buffs). Also I forgot just how powerful these buffs were, which has made "normal" hard to figure out:
Rallying Cry of the Dragonslayer (Ony or Nef): 10% Spell Crit, 5% melee and ranged crit, 140 attack power (Looks like rogues had about ~350 attack power in pre-raid gear +whatever they had innately)
Spirit of Zandalar: 10% move speed, 15% all stats
Songflower Serenade: 15% stats

Assume very good but not perfect BiS Naxx gear, no legendaries, Ony buff but no ZG or BWL buff, no flask. Assume no Blessing of Salvation or Battle Rez, so have to stay below tank threat.

850 range:
Fury Warrior
Rogue
Fire Mage

750 range:
Warlock

700:
Hunter

Shadow, Elemental, Feral, Ret, Boomkin: 400-600

All the above numbers could go significantly higher if you start factoring in flasks, legendaries, stacking all the world buffs, and all the other buffs, plus if players could chain Blessing of Salvation or Battle Rez and/or stacking the entire raid so the entire fight lasted a very short time.


OP:
1200 range:
Fury War
Rogue
Fire Mage

1100 range:
Warlock

900-1000:
Hunter

Shadow, Elemental, Feral, Ret, Boomkin: 500-600

normal dps is being warrior rogue mage, rest doesnt have anything to look for in raids besides being buff bitches for real (normal) dps.

[epLe]

Loatheb is the worst fight in Vanilla to use as an example for DPS (in naxx gear).

This is because of the spore buff given, which removes any threat issues and grants +50% crit chance.
Making DPS numbers very different on this single naxx encounter than any other.

Secondly, private servers are very poorly tuned. The fights in naxx is nowhere near how it used to be.
Bosses die so quickly that many of the hard attrition fights is just faceroll.

Best example of this is 4 horsemen, how people are able to kill it around mark 40-50 for the first time,
while at same time having very low dps uptime due to using safe zone for half the time.
If you check out the kill videos from original vanilla, even with better tactics (dps uptime) guilds where very close to the 100 "enrage" mark every time.

They tried to address this differense on these servers by modifying the resistance values of bosses / mobs mostly,
but it didnt solve much other than cause some problems with spell hit / resist formulas.

So it led Skeram to be the hardest boss of all on these servers, due to 1.12 base and poorly tuning.
Trying to fathom that 1 if you actually did Naxx in retail vanilla.. is next to impossible, and shows just how important it is to get the tuning right.

[Thunderball]

To piggy-back on this, before everyone has Naxx gear fully farmed out, it won't be surprising to see guilds use at least 1 bear druid as the MT when the fight begins because their threat gen is much, much better than pure prot, especially at lower gear levels, and it only requires the druid farming MCPs. There are certainly fights in MC/BWL where you want a Prot War over a Bear, but since threat generation is such a bottleneck in Vanilla, people will no doubt get creative.

Druids do not have high sustained threat. They have high burst threat, which is why they're good as offtanks.

[StrawberryZebra]

Druids do not have high sustained threat. They have high burst threat, which is why they're good as offtanks.

I'm curious as to why this is. Surely a Druid that's actively tanking would have the Rage to make every attack a Maul and fill in most, if not all, of their GCD's with Swipe, barring cases where they're hugely overgeared of course. Given how Maul couldn't be a glancing blow and would be happening at fixed intervals, that would almost certainly give them solid sustained threat more than threat in bursts, no?

That's a bit of an assumption on my part of course, but given how Tanking Warriors pretty much always had the Rage to use Shield Block, Sunder/Revenge and have enough left over for Heroic Strike too, I don't think it's that much of a stretch.

[garicasha]

Also consider the following factors:

3. All tanks (And I do mean ALL) on private servers that are farming Naxx are dualwield tanks with Fury/prot-defiance spec, thus being able to produce ALOT more threat and DPS than a regular protection tank. This means instead of bringing 4-5 sub-optimal protection tanks you only have 100% fury warriors being able to produce maximum DPS when not tanking and still producing really good DPS even when tanking.

5. The log parses on legacyplayers are very much made of characters/guilds that has been farming Naxx for 1-2 years already, having had 4x the time to farm absolute full 100% BIS gear from Naxx in comparison to the vanilla naxx raiders who only had 7 months of Raiding Naxx before TBC hit. I've been farming Naxx since Fall 2017, almost 1.5 years. I have full BIS tank set and I'm missing 1-2 pieces for fury BIS.

Since I don't play private servers I have two questions:
1. How do fury "tanks" not die? Don't shields have ridiculous amounts of armor on them, plus prevent crushing blows?

2. Why/How has Blizzard not shut down servers that have been up for 2 years?

3. How do you not get tired of farming mats for Loatheb, etc, after 2 years?

[Cempa]

To piggy-back on this, before everyone has Naxx gear fully farmed out, it won't be surprising to see guilds use at least 1 bear druid as the MT when the fight begins because their threat gen is much, much better than pure prot, especially at lower gear levels, and it only requires the druid farming MCPs. There are certainly fights in MC/BWL where you want a Prot War over a Bear, but since threat generation is such a bottleneck in Vanilla, people will no doubt get creative.

Warrior Arms/Prot Hybrid .. Had no issues being guild OT with that spec .. If I want more threat/rage add more DPS gear .. Had full tank set but rarely needed it.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

you're really grasping at straws here, but whatever makes you happy, it was still pre WotLK what ever patch it was. My point still remains the same

No it really wasn't. It's 3.0 = WotLK classes, not TBC classes. You are wrong, he's correct.

[Niwes]

some ppl here obviously never played at a specific level for a longer time in classic. so much stupid statements sometimes in here...

[Adoxe]

you're really grasping at straws here, but whatever makes you happy, it was still pre WotLK what ever patch it was. My point still remains the same

patch 3.0 would make it WOTLK, regardless of it being 70 level cap, he ain't wrong.

[Tehterokkar]

you're really grasping at straws here, but whatever makes you happy, it was still pre WotLK what ever patch it was. My point still remains the same

You are really retarded if you think WotLK pre-patch and 2.4.3 TBC patch are the same. Nearly every class got a real rotation going from TBC to WotLK(the ones that were missing one at least). On top of that, every talent tree got majorly reworked to be turned into something that gave much much more DPS per talent point(on top of getting a very strong 51-point talent that defined the spec).

Plus a lot of classes were simply buffed baseline.

[Thunderball]

I'm curious as to why this is. Surely a Druid that's actively tanking would have the Rage to make every attack a Maul and fill in most, if not all, of their GCD's with Swipe, barring cases where they're hugely overgeared of course. Given how Maul couldn't be a glancing blow and would be happening at fixed intervals, that would almost certainly give them solid sustained threat more than threat in bursts, no?

That's a bit of an assumption on my part of course, but given how Tanking Warriors pretty much always had the Rage to use Shield Block, Sunder/Revenge and have enough left over for Heroic Strike too, I don't think it's that much of a stretch.

Because MTs get a lot of rage and Druids simply dont have enough buttons to convert that rage into threat. Maul however is crazy threat/rage, which makes it great for OTs.

- - - Updated - - -

Since I don't play private servers I have two questions:
1. How do fury "tanks" not die? Don't shields have ridiculous amounts of armor on them, plus prevent crushing blows?

2. Why/How has Blizzard not shut down servers that have been up for 2 years?

3. How do you not get tired of farming mats for Loatheb, etc, after 2 years?

1. Armor has nothing to do with crushing blows. Contrary to popular belief full prot spec gives you nothing in terms of survivability, but your threat is a lot higher if geared probably. Obviously you take more damage while DW tanking but that's just an issue of healers being good enough.
2. It benefits them.
3. What mats?

[Storfan]

Since I don't play private servers I have two questions:
1. How do fury "tanks" not die? Don't shields have ridiculous amounts of armor on them, plus prevent crushing blows?

2. Why/How has Blizzard not shut down servers that have been up for 2 years?

3. How do you not get tired of farming mats for Loatheb, etc, after 2 years?

1. We dualwield-tank some trash and some bosses. Some mob/bosses simply hit too hard so you'll need a shield anyways. Also, having Full t3 and worldbuffs, flask and full consumables gives you like 12k HP. It's only really viable when you've been farming the content for a while, have basically BIS for the content being done.

2. The servers are hosted in countries where Blizzard dont have any legal presence or simply that country might not recognize the copyright. Many are hosted out of eastern europe.

3. We kill Loatheb so fast now so we only need to use 1-2 GSPP. That being said, it's the same which ever content you do in vanilla. All content have their respective consumables that are needed, or atleast recommended to make it easier.