North Korean leader Kim Jong Un oversees test of new tactical guided weapon: KCNA

[Dontrike]

The only good US soldier is a dead one.
It's time the world started to kick out this invading military force.

Might want to tone down whatever you are on, taking, or feeling.

[Mormolyce]

I want more of this, i.e. unity and friendship. Aren't you the same people? Separated by external powers? Dragged into a war that should not have existed?

If you found that display convincing, I have some Bitcoin stocks to sell you.

[D Luniz]

Sigh.

It's a start. I am VERY cynical and skeptical. 99.9% of the time. But when it comes to making peace and ending human misery and despair, and bringing the same people together once again, I will take whatever I got. If Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell would be responsible for all this somehow, and if they would say it's a divine miracle, I'd take that too. Peace is incredibly rare.

I find it quite funny though that so many here are deeply skeptical about this Trump endeavor, failed as it might prove to be in the end, but so damn optimistic about other enterprises when it's their side performing it.

Ending a war is miles above petty allegiances and politics.

its not even an issue of "sides" that causes the skeptism, its that its the "best people" that are generally only in their positions due to nepotism, graft or a combination of the two

you never bet on the team thats lost every game and changed nothing
what has changed between time Trump was running his organization, and running this country?

[Mormolyce]

It's a start. I am VERY cynical and skeptical. 99.9% of the time.

Well I'm sorry to round that up to an even 100, but that entire charade was deliberately orchestrated by Kim Jong Un to solidify his position as a power player in the region. It's the reason why no previous Presidents on either side agreed to meet with him, even those that said they would on the campaign trail. Once they got behind closed doors their advisers explained the reality to them - that North Korea has no interest in being a good global citizen and is only looking to legitimise their brutal regime by having world leaders meet with them. Trump fell for it hook line and sinker - the North Koreans got a smiling photo op and a meeting with the President of the US for the first time, and he got diddly squat.

- - - Updated - - -

Ah, the man that thinks Stalin was a hero. This post should be more surprising...

Oh. Maybe he likes dead Russians too?

[Bodakane]

A shame that people have allowed their hatred for Trump affect their opinions about a potential peace process. If you hate Trump and the warmongering right, you should want PEACE. You should want diplomacy. You should want talks. You should want that zone to finally stop being locked in a conflict that no longer exists.

Oh fucking stop it. That is not was it is happening here.

It is that Trump did what he did and he and his blind followers acted like he brokered peace between the Koreas and solved the problem when all he did was get played like the bitch ass punk that he is.

Not to mention these same people lost their collective shit when Obama did a few simple respectful greeting bows.

So set your little incredulous phaser to whomp-whomp.

[Dontrike]

I find it quite funny though that so many here are deeply skeptical about this Trump endeavor

Because of the man behind the endeavor and knowing his history of failure, mostly thanks to his inability to train himself to actually be able to do the thing he wants to do. The man is not exactly been known for his successes. He thinks all you have to do is show up and things get done, but everything takes real work and he is the opposite of diligence.

Again, this has nothing to do about what people think of Trump, but what people KNOW of Trump, and what he is known for is the complete opposite of what you need to make peace in another country.

[beanman12345]

You know what. I call this BS.

You are basically "resisting Trump from the right". You shouldn't do that. If he stumbles or even tries to stumble towards peace, at least shut up, cause there's nothing to lose from DIPLOMACY. Nothing at all.

I will continue to support any attempts to make peace, even when they fail. This is far more important than orangemanbad, whom I suspect that is hating Obama so much and yearning so hard to achieve something, that felt NK might present an opportunity to him. Did he fail? Looks like it. Do I criticize him talking to Kim and "legitimizing" that government? Hell no.

Go back, without advisers and without warmongering neocons like Bolton, and talk some more. And then some more. Until you can do something.

I don't care if I get more shit for this. I am not gonna criticize the talks. I hate war with a burning passion. If there's as much as a sliver of hope, I will take that. Politicians come and go. What matters are the lives of the people living there, not the status of the american empire, and no, I don't think Kim is that smart and great of a politician to have wanted to extract some legitimacy through Trump. I don't know what the hell is in his brain other that greed and disregard for his own people, but a smart dude he ain't.

Now I know I am not gonna convince anyone here, and I'm fine with that. I will stick to my opinion. Diplomacy is the way to go even when it fails.

Maybe try not to overthrow governments in Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, etc before trying to tackle peace with NK. It won't work otherwise.

[Bodakane]

You know what. I call this BS.

You are basically "resisting Trump from the right". You shouldn't do that. If he stumbles or even tries to stumble towards peace, at least shut up, cause there's nothing to lose from DIPLOMACY. Nothing at all.

I will continue to support any attempts to make peace, even when they fail. This is far more important than orangemanbad, whom I suspect that is hating Obama so much and yearning so hard to achieve something, that felt NK might present an opportunity to him. Did he fail? Looks like it. Do I criticize him talking to Kim and "legitimizing" that government? Hell no.

Go back, without advisers and without warmongering neocons like Bolton, and talk some more. And then some more. Until you can do something.

I don't care if I get more shit for this. I am not gonna criticize the talks. I hate war with a burning passion. If there's as much as a sliver of hope, I will take that. Politicians come and go. What matters are the lives of the people living there, not the status of the american empire, and no, I don't think Kim is that smart and great of a politician to have wanted to extract some legitimacy through Trump. I don't know what the hell is in his brain other that greed and disregard for his own people, but a smart dude he ain't.

Now I know I am not gonna convince anyone here, and I'm fine with that. I will stick to my opinion. Diplomacy is the way to go even when it fails.

No one on the left is against diplomacy. The right are the ones to literally shoot first ask questions later.

But this was not an earnest attempt at diplomacy, nor was it effective and it was sold as resounding success.

Basically, you're acting like we should have respect for a snake oil salesman who gave aspirin to a stage 4 pancreatic cancer patient, who claimed they cured that person even though they died, all because cancer is serious.

[Dontrike]

Now I know I am not gonna convince anyone here, and I'm fine with that. I will stick to my opinion. Diplomacy is the way to go even when it fails.

Yes, diplomacy is correct, but better people have tried and tried better to do the same thing. We are not arguing that diplomacy is wrong, but Trump is FAR from the man to do it. The first time without Bolton it didn't work and Trump gave them quite a bit, so you can't say that it's Bolton's fault. NK has been doing this same shit for decades, so not only is it Trump, who we know doesn't have the ability to do it, but NK's history of never changing.

Diplomacy is great, but at some point you just have to wash your hands of it, stop trying, and let things happen. Either eventually NK will fuck up enough to actually take whatever diplomacy is being offered, an actual sane person becomes their leader, or.....a lot of horrible shit will happen. Either way it is clear outside forces cannot change NK until something drastic happens there.

[Orange Joe]

Sigh.

It's a start. I am VERY cynical and skeptical. 99.9% of the time. But when it comes to making peace and ending human misery and despair, and bringing the same people together once again, I will take whatever I got. If Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell would be responsible for all this somehow, and if they would say it's a divine miracle, I'd take that too. Peace is incredibly rare.

I find it quite funny though that so many here are deeply skeptical about this Trump endeavor, failed as it might prove to be in the end, but so damn optimistic about other enterprises when it's their side performing it.

Ending a war is miles above petty allegiances and politics.

I would say the same for anyone. NK will only accept us denuclearizing with them. Which we all know isn't happening until Russia and other nations denuclearize. Soo essentially it's just a fools errand and is only wasting time/resources/effort.

[Freighter]

You know what. I call this BS.

You are basically "resisting Trump from the right". You shouldn't do that. If he stumbles or even tries to stumble towards peace, at least shut up, cause there's nothing to lose from DIPLOMACY. Nothing at all.

I will continue to support any attempts to make peace, even when they fail. This is far more important than orangemanbad, whom I suspect that is hating Obama so much and yearning so hard to achieve something, that felt NK might present an opportunity to him. Did he fail? Looks like it. Do I criticize him talking to Kim and "legitimizing" that government? Hell no.

Go back, without advisers and without warmongering neocons like Bolton, and talk some more. And then some more. Until you can do something.

I don't care if I get more shit for this. I am not gonna criticize the talks. I hate war with a burning passion. If there's as much as a sliver of hope, I will take that. Politicians come and go. What matters are the lives of the people living there, not the status of the american empire, and no, I don't think Kim is that smart and great of a politician to have wanted to extract some legitimacy through Trump. I don't know what the hell is in his brain other that greed and disregard for his own people, but a smart dude he ain't.

Now I know I am not gonna convince anyone here, and I'm fine with that. I will stick to my opinion. Diplomacy is the way to go even when it fails.

It's funny how you think anyone will ever convince them.

[Easo]

Now I know I am not gonna convince anyone here, and I'm fine with that. I will stick to my opinion. Diplomacy is the way to go even when it fails.

It still is a diplomacy even if it says "Either you give up nukes or we will invade, right now". A bad one, with victims, but still a diplomacy. North Korea won't ever change peacefully, unless it breaks up due to internal unmanageable crisis, like hunger.

[Easo]

Well, in case it was not obvious, I would rather want to avoid victims, ESPECIALLY civilians. "Won't ever change peacefully", they did come to talks, so you just assuming here. I can assume the opposite with just as much validity.

Yes, but why they came to talks? I will go to assume, as you said, with the majority - they wanted something out of it (and got it) and it was not the peace deal they were interested in. Trump got played and USA, again, made to look like fools.

[Orange Joe]

Well, in case it was not obvious, I would rather want to avoid victims, ESPECIALLY civilians. "Won't ever change peacefully", they did come to talks, so you just assuming here. I can assume the opposite with just as much validity.

So not that I'm actually suggesting we do anything, but whats the threshold for this? NK already has innocent citizens dying, how many should we let die before we do anything?

[Orange Joe]

"anything" being exactly what? If you do sanctions, the civilians suffer more, not Kim, he's fat and happy. If you invade, civilians will suffer, and if you're lucky, you get to apprehend Kim and his leadership, and if unlucky, you'll get South Korea nuked.

But more importantly, who is "we"? Under which authority is "we" supposed to act in NK? Under which laws? What international coalition has determined, under international law, that this regime is illegitimate and should be deposed through force?

Or is it just the US? Because for the 100th time, the US has no such rights as to interfere in other countries and change their regimes if deemed "bad".

These are complex issues.

If you want a suggestion, here's mine, after actually living my youth in a horrible communist country and participating actively in the revolution that overthrew the government.

Help revolutionaries in NK covertly. Fund them. COVERTLY. Make sure the country is exposed to Western news, television, and Internet content. This is of paramount importance. In Romania, we had illicit radios tuned to "Europa Libera", and we kept listening even under danger of very harsh penalties. Just as an example. Keep exposing NK to capitalism and its material benefits.

And then, have PATIENCE. In the end, it's the responsibility of the NK people to be "free".

I meant we as in I'm not suggesting the US do anything.

You were seemingly trying to draw a line at not hurting innocent people. I was more trying to make the point that that line has already been crossed. So how many getting hurt is acceptable before action is needed?

[Orange Joe]

You don't get it. "Action" in way too ambiguous. What is that even meaning? "Action" can mean more starvation in an already poor country. It can mean war, and all of its consequences.

Give these people the "tools" to overthrow the government and rise up. It will likely still be bloody, but a revolution at least has a chance to getting the army to side with the people, if you invade that army and people will probably stand against you, the foreign entity.

Useless discussion in the end, as what we think is irrelevant, governments already have their own agendas that ignore human lives almost completely.

..... Don't know why you are being obtuse about the word action, then go on to describe an action to take... I was being broad on purpose.... I understand any "action" can cause more damage. As can doing nothing. I was just simply asking where that line is for you.

[Orange Joe]

Sanctions and war are a line. Direct help towards an insurgency as well. Propaganda is fine, and covert material help to revolutionary groups, but it has to be done secretly and properly so people don't get put in more danger than they already are. I've already given you a link to that radio post that had a huge influence in the fall of the Iron Curtain. Do that again.

Since you don't seem to be getting what I'm asking let me try another way.


At what point do you go from passive interference to active interference in how another government treats their citizen. If ever (in your opinion)


For clarity.

passive = information/supply/sanctions
active = force

[Doctor Amadeus]

A shame that people have allowed their hatred for Trump affect their opinions about a potential peace process. If you hate Trump and the warmongering right, you should want PEACE. You should want diplomacy. You should want talks. You should want that zone to finally stop being locked in a conflict that no longer exists.

Give me a fucking break, we really needed a loud mouth physically and morally bankrupt tv reality game show host to humiliate the U.S on the world stage by getting rolled by another 2 bit man child of North Korea who needs his ego stroked as he literally enslaves millions of North Koreans under a brutal fucking regimes while being antagonized by shit terms like rocket man, when he is developing weapons that could seriously put the U.S or one of it's allies under nuclear threat.

Are you fucking serious, everything about this was a shit show by anybody with any fucking sense from the beginning, and nobody needed to wish this fame seeking ego maniacs well as he tried to get nominated for a Nobel Peace prize he has to politic other nations like South Korea to get.

This is a sick joke, there wasn't any real peace talks, and anybody who really paid attention knew that but Trump and his supporters.

[Software]

Are you fucking serious, everything about this was a shit show by anybody with any fucking sense from the beginning, and nobody needed to wish this fame seeking ego maniacs well as he tried to get nominated for a Nobel Peace prize he has to politic other nations like South Korea to get.

This is a sick joke, there wasn't any real peace talks, and anybody who really paid attention knew that but Trump and his supporters.

Indeed. The entire planet knew Trump would fail except his followers who are mabey watching news now once in awhile because their favorite troll TV-star is president.

[Breccia]

Most relevant thread I could find.

North Korea is continuing efforts to strike a deal. As such, they are now reaching out to the man who won the 2016 Presidential election: Vladimir Putin.

Kim's last summit with Trump in February broke down without agreement. Negotiations between the two sides have since stalled, and it appears they still disagree about what "denuclearization" actually means.

And meeting Putin is partly Kim's way of signaling to Trump that he "can shop around for a deal," according to Robert Kelly, a professor of international relations at South Korea's Pusan University.

"Trump, as is his wont, has turned the engagement with Kim into an all-encompassing personal psychodrama, and the U.S. public and media drank that Kool-Aid," Kelly said. "Kim Jong Un is now happy to talk to anyone."

The North Korean dictator's overriding aim may be to protect his family's dynastic rule against regime change, experts believe. But Kim is also keen to ease the international sanctions that are squeezing his country's poor economy.

With the U.S. talks going nowhere, the North Korean ruler is turning to Russia, to see what Putin can offer but also as a message to the other players.

"There are a number of reasons for the trip, and one of them is to show the U.S. that they are not the only game in town," according to Tom Plant at the Royal United Services Institute, a London think tank. "The U.S. will clearly be watching very closely for any outcomes."

Thursday's summit took place on Russky Island

"Russky Island"? That's a joke name, right? Right?

(checks)

Wow, they have an aquarium and beaches and shit. Huh.

near Russia's far-eastern port of Vladivostok.

There was substance as well as symbolism. The two countries share a tiny, 11-mile land border, and Putin wants to build a gas pipeline and rail routes through the North and into South Korea.

Putin would prefer not to have another nuclear power on his doorstep. But while that is a reality, experts say he would at least like to be seen as a major power broker in negotiations currently involving the Koreas, the U.S. and China.

"We talked, of course, about the situation on the Korean Peninsula," Putin said during a break in the talks, Reuters reported. The Russian president said he would be willing to share details of the discussion with Trump, claiming that "there are no secrets" in this process.

The summit, he hoped, would "help better understand what should be done to settle the situation on the Korean Peninsula".

Obviously, Putin has far less motivation to make NK denuke than the USA. What they do have is
a) a higher degree of public trust around the world, and
b) a friendlier relationship with China than the US

With both Russia and China coming to the table in NK's defense, places like SK and Japan -- places Trump has tariffed and extorted -- might find whatever deal they broker more agreeable than Trump's blatant failure. For added fun, the US might be forced to veto a UN resolution on the matter, further making US the bad guy (at least by PR standards).

Again, I don't know where this is going, other than the fact that it's going elsewhere, not here.

Are we tired of winning yet?