So many spec's left out of Mythic plus

[Th3Scourge]

Every class can have a weakness and be viable... I never said making everyone similiar.

I think it's perfectly fine to have some specs for classes be better suited to certain content over others. I'm perfectly happy to play Affliction in raids and switch to Demo for M+, I think that adds more variety than just playing Affliction in both raids and M+. Besides, we will all gravitate to whatever sims highest anyway

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

I think it's perfectly fine to have some specs for classes be better suited to certain content over others. I'm perfectly happy to play Affliction in raids and switch to Demo for M+, I think that adds more variety than just playing Affliction in both raids and M+. Besides, we will all gravitate to whatever sims highest anyway

I think everyone should be able to do a bit of everything but it different ways. Warlocks and deathknights should slow casting and attack speed. Rogues stun lock and warriors interupt and spell reflect. I think everything should be viable and competitive cause that adds more reason for people to play your game. It's in blizzards best interest.

If everything is viable than you can just play whatever though that's my point... If your bored of aff just go demo or destro.

Just like it's in valves to make developer cordinate release dates and use there pull for free advertising. Their bottom line just gets bigger by expanding there networking. They don't have to and the only consequence is they make less money or create room for a competitor but they should do everything that increase there bottom line without pushing away customers. Ea for example is bad at this they milk franchise and piss off there fanbases in the long run for a quick buck.

[Nitros14]

Hmm I don't so much mind the fact that Affliction is shit for M+ but a beast in Raids. Every spec and class having no weakness across content is more boring than what we have now.

You could play a mage where all your specs are trash in raids and people bring a token mage for intellect.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...metric=bossdps All three Warlock specs are above the one mage spec specialized in single target damage on the only mostly single target fight in the tier.

And on most every other fight mage just gets trashed by most specs. Demo Warlock is a full 20% above mage on mythic Jaina.

[sirethas]

The variety of the content hurts the balance for each of them. When rebalacing spec they always have to have in mind other aspects of the game such as raiding, arenas, bgs, world content etc. It would be much easier if the game had only one of this but it doesn't.

So, in my opinion instead of nerfing and pruning classes devs should rather look at the content itself to give other specs place to shine. Make dungeon layout or put some specific trash which favours other classes/specs to the extend they become desirable for it. Same can be said about raid encounters etc.
As it is now, there's nothing special in any dungeon (beside freehold) so most teams just take the highest possible AoE specs and go for it. For this alone I enjoyed Legion dungeons a lot more

[boz0]

[...]makes it a little more difficult for somebody who isn't playing a "mainstream" class to pug a high key (highlighted pug, because not everybody has a luxury to have a stable m+ group ready to go on demand ), you just don't get invited regardless of your gear, score or raid progress

Yup, the problem is definitely vastly different between someone who plays with guildmates and someone who pugs.
I've long been a member of that second group because my casual guild wasn't playing M+ early on, and shifting from Frost DK to Havoc DH helped immensely in getting invited (though it was still a pain more often than not).

[Gungnir]

How about this.
Not every spec or class should be viable..... Gasp.

That logic stopped working when WotLK rolled around.
When the entire game is built around endgame nowadays, not being viable for said endgame is pretty fucking detrimental.

[Super Kami Dende]

Without total homogenization there will always be Classes at the top and Classes at the Bottom. This comes from many things like the way Ilvl and gear scales, the way the Content is designed (AoE vs ST), What utility is useful for different situations etc.

Classes and Specs over the last few years have been some of the closest and most balanced ever in WoW's lifespan.

At this point EVERYTHING is Viable. There are just some that are better. Which is better than Vanilla/TBC ever was.

[Nitros14]

Without total homogenization there will always be Classes at the top and Classes at the Bottom. This comes from many things like the way Ilvl and gear scales, the way the Content is designed (AoE vs ST), What utility is useful for different situations etc.

Classes and Specs over the last few years have been some of the closest and most balanced ever in WoW's lifespan.

At this point EVERYTHING is Viable. There are just some that are better. Which is better than Vanilla/TBC ever was.

Laughable. By that standard everything was viable then too (and in truth, it actually was because nothing in vanilla or TBC until Sunwell was all that harshly tuned except like two Naxxramas bosses). The difference between the top specs and bottom in mythic+ is around 30%. In raids 20%.

BFA is really bad, WoD and Legion were alright balance wise.

[Super Kami Dende]

Laughable. By that standard everything was viable then too (and in truth, it actually was because nothing in vanilla or TBC until Sunwell was all that harshly tuned except like two Naxxramas bosses). The difference between the top specs and bottom in mythic+ is around 30%. In raids 20%.

BFA is really bad, WoD and Legion were alright balance wise.

Except it wasn't. Vanilla is still the most trash this game ever was in regards to class design.

[Nitros14]

Except it wasn't. Vanilla is still the most trash this game ever was in regards to class design.

Oh balance was awful in vanilla for sure. Though to be fair the design back then was balancing classes not specs. And if you could heal, you were balanced as a healer.

But vanilla was also tuned to be doable for extremely bad, clueless players so you actually could complete almost all content with very bad specs, so by that standard they're "viable."

I mean back in the day Loatheb was considered an incredibly tough dps check and guilds flasked, turned in Onyxia heads and Hakkar hearts, used a shit ton of elixirs and consumables to beat it.

But you can see people on private servers beating the soft enrage by like a full minute. So they could've used some bad specs and still completed the content. And nothing else in vanilla comes close to the tuning of Loatheb and Kel'Thuzad.

[ID811717]

Yup, the problem is definitely vastly different between someone who plays with guildmates and someone who pugs.

Playing with guildmates is only a temporary bandaid solution. This will help you get a couple of key levels higher than in pugs, but at some point even guildmates and friends will start to riot against you playing a sub-optimal spec. You'll have to reroll or get replaced by someone else.

There is a reason the difference between top druid healer and top shaman healer is 3.8k vs 2.7k score.

[Orwell7]

Whoever said balance is "impossible" with this number of specs..

Have you seen the real world outside? The MASSIVE shit people built? What do you think how can the "balance" all those numbers so skyscrapers won't fall off?
Yes, people can do marvellous things, it's just a matter of skill and execution.

Which Blizzard hasn't got much lately...

[Roxyfoxy]

https://www.darklegacycomics.com/558

This comic sums it up pretty good.

[Koor]

Whoever said balance is "impossible" with this number of specs..

Have you seen the real world outside? The MASSIVE shit people built? What do you think how can the "balance" all those numbers so skyscrapers won't fall off?
Yes, people can do marvellous things, it's just a matter of skill and execution.

Which Blizzard hasn't got much lately...

While perfect dps/hps balance may be impossible to achieve, we aren't even there yet. There are huge imbalances in utility that blizzard can easily fix.

Resto druid being the only healer with combat res is one of them, even before we look at throughput (which druids also happen to excell at). This can be easily fixed by giving CR to all healers, or disabling it in mythic+ altogether. At the very least they could make the engineering CR castable from ranged. Having to go into melee range to use it often means a party wipe since it takes time, and sometimes just can't be done it someone died inside a void zone.

Another glowing imbalance is rogue shroud, it's so important that rogue often takes a mandatory DPS spot. Can be fixed by disabling it in mythic+, or maybe require additional trash percentage for each time shroud is used.

[Th3Scourge]

You could play a mage where all your specs are trash in raids and people bring a token mage for intellect.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...metric=bossdps All three Warlock specs are above the one mage spec specialized in single target damage on the only mostly single target fight in the tier.

And on most every other fight mage just gets trashed by most specs. Demo Warlock is a full 20% above mage on mythic Jaina.

Or you could play a frost mage in M+ and be the most represented ranged dps spec in the game at all keystone levels. I'm glad that different classes have different strengths and weaknesses.

- - - Updated - - -

I think everyone should be able to do a bit of everything but it different ways. Warlocks and deathknights should slow casting and attack speed. Rogues stun lock and warriors interupt and spell reflect. I think everything should be viable and competitive cause that adds more reason for people to play your game. It's in blizzards best interest.

If everything is viable than you can just play whatever though that's my point... If your bored of aff just go demo or destro.

Just like it's in valves to make developer cordinate release dates and use there pull for free advertising. Their bottom line just gets bigger by expanding there networking. They don't have to and the only consequence is they make less money or create room for a competitor but they should do everything that increase there bottom line without pushing away customers. Ea for example is bad at this they milk franchise and piss off there fanbases in the long run for a quick buck.

I feel that it detracts from the RPG elements of a game. I think it's healthier for the game for specs to have limitations and weaknesses. Classes and specs have been like this since day one.

[Garymorilix]

Perfect balance is possible at the cost of class identity. Which basically translates to "we sacrifice balance in some aspects in order to keep classes different".
This is the class deign philosophy of Blizzard now. Which is totally fair.

Not everything has to be balanced around doing 17+ keys. Those are the highly competitive spots, and the highly competitive environment needs the best of the best to min-max. It is that simple. In order for every spec to be competitive at the highest level, every spec would need to do the exact same dmg and utility, which would just mean that every spec is the same.

Damage-wise every spec to very close to each other. I've been playing a survival hunter for the past month and it's really good, I have to say. It just doesn't provide the same utility that a rogue has, that's all.
Every class has its own strength and weakness, some are just better for some content than others. Like, with Reaping affli is pretty lacking in M+, but it finally let Demo shine, which was a very underplayed spec before. This will all change once we get the new seasonal affix, we'll have another top performer group and then people will be whining about those.

This is why you, as the player, should set your own goals: if you wanna play your class for fun you need to accept that it may be harder for you to do extremely high-end content without a group of friends. If your goal is to be at the top of charts, you need to sacrifice your preferences. This is the exact case with most of online multiplayers that include a variety of options. Balancing different playstyles around an "equal outcome" would just make less difficult specs be on top, for obvious reasons. People choose the path of least resistance. You can't change that.

[Kokolums]

M+ is designed for a TV show. Its not designed for players.

- - - Updated - - -

Perfect balance is possible at the cost of class identity. Which basically translates to "we sacrifice balance in some aspects in order to keep classes different".

Nonsense. You could introduce time penalties for picking FOTM classes.

[slickwilly]

Most of the players running high keys are simple minded chest puffers that fellate themselves. Gotta have the meta derrrr

[Garymorilix]

M+ is designed for a TV show. Its not designed for players.

- - - Updated - - -



Nonsense. You could introduce time penalties for picking FOTM classes.

Smart idea.
So what if you introduce -5 mins for rogues. Pro's just pick up the next best thing that is only like 5% worse stat wise but they keep those 5 mins.
Now you introduce a -5 min for that class too. Then they pick the next one.
At the end, we're at the start again, but we have -5 mins off the timer baseline.

You managed to create a system that creates the FotM classes for the players, instead of players finding those out themselves.

[Temp name]

Smart idea.
So what if you introduce -5 mins for rogues. Pro's just pick up the next best thing that is only like 5% worse stat wise but they keep those 5 mins.
Now you introduce a -5 min for that class too. Then they pick the next one.
At the end, we're at the start again, but we have -5 mins off the timer baseline.

You managed to create a system that creates the FotM classes for the players, instead of players finding those out themselves.

And before anyone says "Well just add differing time penalties depending on the class" then you'll end up either hurting or allowing gimmick classes like UH DK's who are only good in very specific situations.