Belfs turned into traitors and scumbags

[Super Dickmann]

The issue isn't exclusively that the title of Warchief is a dictatorship. It's if one who is mentally unfit to lead the Horde should have the sole power to lead it unchallenged. Both Garrosh and now Sylvanas are unfit for the role.

If the Warchief's rule could not be challenged, there would be no provision for a Mak'gora. Why do you think the Mak'gora exists? Because the one making the challenge believes the current Warchief has lost his way. Technically, somebody should challenge Sylvanas to one, but we all know she has no honor and would cheat by probably using poisoned arrows anyway. So the only way to take her down is a rebellion.

The Horde itself makes no provision for this. The only thing the Warchief needs to be legitimate is to be appointed, then they're the object of the oath and presto, that's it. It's kind of what you get when succession is based around whether the previous guy in charge liked what he heard about someone he just met, or the candidate's dad was big buds with the present Warchief or he was dying and high off his ass and just selected whoever was closest.

That having been said, the Mak'gora being ignored argument still doesn't work. Setting aside that Sylvanas wouldn't really need to cheat to beat any of them though, refusing the challenge or cheating discredits her basis for power. Think of what happened in the movie with Gul'dan and Durotan. If they challenge Sylvanas and win, cheers, they can redirect the Horde to be whatever they want as they'll be the Warchief. If they lose because she cheated, they're a martyr that turns the Horde against her by proxy, so they still win. Same if she refuses to accept the challenge. The only scenario where they'd lose is if they lost fairly.

[GetCrunk]

The issue isn't exclusively that the title of Warchief is a dictatorship. It's if one who is mentally unfit to lead the Horde should have the sole power to lead it unchallenged. Both Garrosh and now Sylvanas are unfit for the role.

If the Warchief's rule could not be challenged, there would be no provision for a Mak'gora. Why do you think the Mak'gora exists? Because the one making the challenge believes the current Warchief has lost his way. Technically, somebody should challenge Sylvanas to one, but we all know she has no honor and would cheat by probably using poisoned arrows anyway. So the only way to take her down is a rebellion.

Why do you say they are unfit to rule the Horde, because some people cry for a few elfs and a World Tree? To tell you this even the Nelf druids did not give a shit about that tree and I doubt that the Horde Druids care for the tree , that tree exist because of Malfurion stupid obsession with the dream and Fandral Staghelm piss on him and planted the tree.


And for some of you that do not remember Thrall put Garrosh in charge of The Horde to bring to some of it old ways and wanted a Warchief that will not answer to no Human.

[InTheEnd]

And for some of you that do not remember Thrall put Garrosh in charge of The Horde to bring to some of it old ways and wanted a Warchief that will not answer to no Human.

Thrall put him in charge because there was no alternative at the time and he saw how popular Garrosh had become with the orcs in general after Northrend. He certainly didn't want the Horde to revert to the old ways under Garrosh.

[bowlink]

Blizzard painted itself in the corner with this ham fisted knee jerk reaction. That the war in warcraft stand for the alliance and horde need to be at eacht other throats. Thats fine in RTS. But in a bi faction MMO that won't work.
They 3 options now.
Rehash MoP sorta and piss of the horde players

Pull a kerrigan on sylvanas and piss of the alliance players.

Or do neither and return to the status quo. And piss of both. Because the faction war in BfA would a red herring like most had expected

[Evilfish]

Thrall put him in charge because there was no alternative at the time and he saw how popular Garrosh had become with the orcs in general after Northrend. He certainly didn't want the Horde to revert to the old ways under Garrosh.

Shame he didn't listen to his advisors who were, you know, advising him not to put Garrosh in charge cause he was too unstable. In fact Baine's dad challenged Garrosh to a duel as a protest to Thrall's... or should I say Go'el's choice.

As far as I'm concerned Thrall can drop dead the moment he decides to work with the Alliance.

[Syegfryed]

Thrall put him in charge because there was no alternative at the time and he saw how popular Garrosh had become with the orcs in general after Northrend. He certainly didn't want the Horde to revert to the old ways under Garrosh.

Garrosh were pretty popular with other races of the horde, not just orcs, he was northrend hero.

[Kumorii]

Shame he didn't listen to his advisors who were, you know, advising him not to put Garrosh in charge cause he was too unstable. In fact Baine's dad challenged Garrosh to a duel as a protest to Thrall's... or should I say Go'el's choice.

As far as I'm concerned Thrall can drop dead the moment he decides to work with the Alliance.

Wasn't Garrosh himself against being appointed warchief?

[Super Dickmann]

Thrall put him in charge because there was no alternative at the time and he saw how popular Garrosh had become with the orcs in general after Northrend. He certainly didn't want the Horde to revert to the old ways under Garrosh.

That's explicitly what he wanted. Thrall was disillusioned with his own beliefs and put Garrosh in charge because of his popularity, chiefly with the orcs but also with all other races that were part of the campaign in Northrend. Even two expansions later people cheer for Theramore. It's not until later into Mists that he loses support.

[Yarathir]

I'm going to miss these kinds of posts when Sylvanas is dead or her existence is brushed under the rug.

[FlubberPuddy]

I'm going to miss these kinds of posts when Sylvanas is dead or her existence is brushed under the rug.

To me it shows an interesting display of what some players believe the Horde is (and there's various beliefs with just players alone), versus what Blizzard believes it to be.

[Gaidax]

What do you mean "turned"?

[Mehrunes]

I'm going to miss these kinds of posts when Sylvanas is dead or her existence is brushed under the rug.

Given how Garrosh is discussed to this day, good luck with that. I mean, sure, the Alliance posters that keep derailing every thread to her because they can't handle her will find a new character to be unable to handle, making that character the new target of @Super Dickmann's law, but Sylvanas will still remain a frequent topic.

[Yarathir]

Given how Garrosh is discussed to this day, good luck with that. I mean, sure, the Alliance posters that keep derailing every thread to her because they can't handle her will find a new character to be unable to handle, making that character the new target of @Super Dickmann's law, but Sylvanas will still remain a frequent topic.

Even better.

[Traveler Voltin]

only Lorthemar is the traitor.

[Aeula]

I'm going to miss these kinds of posts when Sylvanas is dead or her existence is brushed under the rug.

Sylvanas being dead or not is irrelevant at this point. People will rightfully hate the ones who replace her. It’s not that they took up arms against her, it’s how.

Ultimately it’s Blizzard’s fault for killing any semblance of faction pride a bulk of the Horde had by going with this stupid, rehashed plot.

[Jastall]

The Horde only looks like a worse system than an absolute monarchy where the leader has basically all the same rights because no one uses the checks and balances. Nobody challenged Garrosh and now Sylvanas to Mak'gora, they leapt directly to armed uprising in the middle of war. The issue is with the writing staff, not one of the last remnants of the Horde's identity as an organisation. If they want to make you evil, they will.

@InTheEnd

The New Horde is a meaningless meme. It didn't spring from the aether fully formed, different from the Horde as it was prior and with a separate demography or organisation. There's direct continuity between Orgrim Doomhammer and Thrall, as Orgrim gave the position to Thrall. Even what Thrall was doing and what he intended to do were just Orgrim's plans. At no point did the Horde stop being an absolute dictatorship, Thrall just used said power in a fashion that was more agreeable to modern sensibilities.

I mean the check and balance is bad, in fairness. If the Warchief is a total incompetent but too powerful to duel (as we have now), you have no recourse except rebellion. And the one time in recent memory that an actual Mak'gora against the Warchief was carried out, someone sabotaged it. Only time it was done right and proper is by Doomhammer thirty years ago That's hardly a good way to put anyone's faith in the institution.

[Evilfish]

I mean the check and balance is bad, in fairness. If the Warchief is a total incompetent but too powerful to duel (as we have now), you have no recourse except rebellion. And the one time in recent memory that an actual Mak'gora against the Warchief was carried out, someone sabotaged it. Only time it was done right and proper is by Doomhammer thirty years ago That's hardly a good way to put anyone's faith in the institution.

You know, if Baine challenged Sylvanas to a one on one fight, even if he lost he would still win by becoming a martyr, but that would require him to sacrifice for the Horde and sadly he's saving himself for the Alliance. Or better said, for Anduin.

[formerShandalay]

So, as we've had this 'becoming a martyr' topic a few times since the BfA release and I used to agree Baine should have done that, I just re-read some passages from The Shattering and... I was wrong, 'becoming a martyr' in a Mak'gora is not possible. If you lose in Mak'gora, you were wrong by 'higher power' decree. In the Shattering Baine says, Garrosh won and so he is in the right, the Earth Mother has spoken. If it was by treachery he won, it doesn't matter, he won and so Cairne was decreed in the wrong by the Earthmother and Garrosh in the right. Which is also why Baine doesn't choose to challenge Garrosh afterwards, because it would be defying the will of the Earthmother to do so.
Now, if he actually expects Sylvanas to win, no matter how, he gives her the ultimate win, the proof that she is right and he is wrong. He doesn't turn into a martyr, he just becomes the one who lost in the Mak'gora and was decreed in the wrong by the Earthmother.
So if you expect the other to cheat and thus fear you'll lose unless the Earthmother herself shows up to help you, you don't go for a Mak'gora. Simple as that.

[Magnagarde]

The Sunreavers getting smoked by Sylvanas' Horde because of dissenting views would be poetic justice for the way Lor'themar exiled those high elves who would later end up (re)joining the Alliance, only to be killed by Nathanos afterwards. If that truly was to happen, then it would be karma performing a boomerang headshot on Lor'themar.

[Fetus Rex]

Kael'thas should return to lead them. Fire and Blood, not some regent wimp.