Unfortunate Implications with Sylvanas

[Skytotem]

What do you mean unpalatable? Nothing beats acting against your faction in Baine's name. That's all the Horde is about.

It's also really stupid for Baine to be the face of reconciliation with the Alliance when he's never HAD a problem with the Alliance in the past, it's EASY for him to support peace, but it also makes it impossible for anyone who has had issues with them to get behind him.

[Mehrunes]

It's also really stupid for Baine to be the face of reconciliation with the Alliance when he's never HAD a problem with the Alliance in the past, it's EASY for him to support peace, but it also makes it impossible for anyone who has had issues with them to get behind him.

Never had issues? What? The Alliance constantly makes him suffer. Poor Baine just wants to become a rug in Anduin's restroom and the Alliance constantly tells him "Not today, we still need you as our asset within the Horde". At this point he's already a martyr in the name of reconciliation with them.

[Aresk]

Never had issues? What? The Alliance constantly makes him suffer. Poor Baine just wants to become a rug in Anduin's restroom and the Alliance constantly tells him "Not today, we still need you as our asset within the Horde". At this point he's already a martyr in the name of reconciliation with them.

Just because the tauren tribes owe the Alliance for aiding them in their struggles for their homeland (be it most tribes vs the Grimtotem or the Grimtotem vs the Horde), I never got the impression that Baine wants to abandon the Horde. I think he really just doesn't want to have to defend another Warchief for war crimes (which still baffles me given that we've seen no evidence of any laws of war in Azeroth). At least he was never part of the Alliance, unlike Sylvanas and Lor'thremar. I think Rokhan, Gallywix, and Talanji are the only faction leaders left in the Horde who never benefited from the Alliance at any point in their life (Mayla and Thalyssra had their homes saved in Legion by Horde and Alliance; Ji was rescued during Siege of Orgrimmar by Horde and Alliance; Geya'rah had the Legion driven from Draenor in part to the Alliance).

[formerShandalay]

Just because the tauren tribes owe the Alliance for aiding them in their struggles for their homeland (be it most tribes vs the Grimtotem or the Grimtotem vs the Horde), I never got the impression that Baine wants to abandon the Horde. I think he really just doesn't want to have to defend another Warchief for war crimes (which still baffles me given that we've seen no evidence of any laws of war in Azeroth). At least he was never part of the Alliance, unlike Sylvanas and Lor'thremar. I think Rokhan, Gallywix, and Talanji are the only faction leaders left in the Horde who never benefited from the Alliance at any point in their life (Mayla and Thalyssra had their homes saved in Legion by Horde and Alliance; Ji was rescued during Siege of Orgrimmar by Horde and Alliance; Geya'rah had the Legion driven from Draenor in part to the Alliance).

We have seen rules against 'warcrimes' laid out, though not agreed upon by any mortals. The 'warcrimes' we have heard about so far and that actually usually cost people their powers (if they weren't in league with some "evil" power instead) are:
You do not eat your Loa.
You do not plan genocide (or, I guess, actually go through with it) or if the spirit of Rulkan is anything to go by, a war of conquest on a large scale.
You do not enslave elements
You do not destroy the land to the point that you can't inhabit it anymore. Or the point where the elements get angry (which, again I guess, is probably the same thing.)

[Mehrunes]

Just because the tauren tribes owe the Alliance for aiding them in their struggles for their homeland (be it most tribes vs the Grimtotem or the Grimtotem vs the Horde), I never got the impression that Baine wants to abandon the Horde. I think he really just doesn't want to have to defend another Warchief for war crimes (which still baffles me given that we've seen no evidence of any laws of war in Azeroth). At least he was never part of the Alliance, unlike Sylvanas and Lor'thremar. I think Rokhan, Gallywix, and Talanji are the only faction leaders left in the Horde who never benefited from the Alliance at any point in their life (Mayla and Thalyssra had their homes saved in Legion by Horde and Alliance; Ji was rescued during Siege of Orgrimmar by Horde and Alliance; Geya'rah had the Legion driven from Draenor in part to the Alliance).

Hard to abandon something you were never truly in to begin with. Because the reason why most tribes "owe" the Alliance is because during Grimtotem rebellion Baine engaged in mental gymnastics to justify not asking other Horde leaders for help just so he could crawl to the Alliance instead. And that debt Baine and his Alliance sycophancy forced upon the Tauren has already been paid years ago, by Baine's own admission, when he betrayed the Horde and delivered confidential military information to Jaina. Arguably he paid it off even before that, when he banished Tauren for wanting to fight against Jaina's forces invading their lands.

And if his Alliance-loving ass didn't want to have to defend Sylvanas in a trial, instead of helping out the Alliance and sabotaging the Horde - which only makes the scenario where Sylvanas is put in from of another Celestial kangaroo court and needs someone in the Horde to defend her ever more likely - he could have, I dunno, not sabotaged the Horde's war effort and made that scenario less likely?

On a side note, Geya'rah wasn't born yet during WoD, so she only benefited indirectly.

[tilatequila]

So what was the tea with Ashvane, Sylvanas and how did she get to Azshara? has this been discussed before?

[Skytotem]

So what was the tea with Ashvane, Sylvanas and how did she get to Azshara? has this been discussed before?

Presumably she's on the horde ship when it crashes and just runs off to Azshara.

[Aresk]

Hard to abandon something you were never truly in to begin with. Because the reason why most tribes "owe" the Alliance is because during Grimtotem rebellion Baine engaged in mental gymnastics to justify not asking other Horde leaders for help just so he could crawl to the Alliance instead. And that debt Baine and his Alliance sycophancy forced upon the Tauren has already been paid years ago, by Baine's own admission, when he betrayed the Horde and delivered confidential military information to Jaina. Arguably he paid it off even before that, when he banished Tauren for wanting to fight against Jaina's forces invading their lands.

He didn't go to the Horde because Magatha had the Warchief's support; Garrosh had chosen her to bless his weapon during the Mok'gora that killed his father, and Baine would be turning to his father's killer for aid. Only after Garrosh learned of the poison did he cut ties with the Grimtotem, and by that time Baine was already in hiding. He could have reached out to Vol'jin, but that was really his only influential ally left in the Horde at that point, and Vol'jin didn't exactly have Garrosh's favor anyway.

[formerShandalay]

So what was the tea with Ashvane, Sylvanas and how did she get to Azshara? has this been discussed before?

Ashvane had an ally in Azshara who was holding the Kul Tiran fleet in a magical storm so Ashvane could attack Boralus (It wasn't only Azshara, Lord Stormsong, a minion of N'Zoth, did conspire with her to that end) This is shown in the Alliance questline. Sylvanas got Ashvane out of the Alliance prison, after her plan with Boralus had backfired and they went off on Sylvanas's ship planning something, leaving the player, Valtrois and Rexxar behind. We don't see Ashvane afterwards anymore, as far as I know, until she shows up in Nazjatar.
Sylvanas sends Nathanos out to the ocean to lay a trap for the Alliance and get rid of dissenting voices in the Horde along the way. Both fleets (or the parts of the fleet that were sent) crash as the ocean opens up underneath them and Nazjatar rises.
Sylvanas is not in Nazjatar as far as I know.

[Whitedragon]

Meanwhile Anduin will call an end to the war while the night elves and Gilneans will justifiably insist on holding the rest of the Horde accountable too, which Blizzard will use to excuse the "faction tension" nonsense for a few more expansions until the MoP plot comes back around on the cycle and Baine decides to kill all dwarves or something.

No no no, you skipped a step, Baine dies to a rando twilight cultist (most likely some rather pathetic looking one that we have murdered thousands of in the past), after which Galywix takes the lead. He will have an expansion or so where hes okay... ish, but doesn't actually do much, then out of nowhere he will drink "New" Kaja kola (Now with 70% more titan blood, but it still has that thirst quenching taste) pushing him over the edge.

Subnote: Ji firepaw will have to fill the Zillia position this time because we ran out of orcs when Geya'rah died as Zillia.

[Skytotem]

He didn't go to the Horde because Magatha had the Warchief's support; Garrosh had chosen her to bless his weapon during the Mok'gora that killed his father, and Baine would be turning to his father's killer for aid. Only after Garrosh learned of the poison did he cut ties with the Grimtotem, and by that time Baine was already in hiding. He could have reached out to Vol'jin, but that was really his only influential ally left in the Horde at that point, and Vol'jin didn't exactly have Garrosh's favor anyway.

Too bad he never checked with Garrosh afterwards

Garrosh sent Magatha a death threat over what she did.

[formerShandalay]

Too bad he never checked with Garrosh afterwards

Garrosh sent Magatha a death threat over what she did.

Baine did check with Garrosh afterwards, but Garrosh didn't want to help him. He wanted to see if Baine was even worthy of the Horde and if he could enforce his rule alone.

I personally think it's a dick move and also in itself quite unworthy of the Horde, but it aligns with Garrosh's view of the Horde as an alliance of only strong and powerful people, not the 'we help out the downtrodden' or 'ragtag band of underdogs united against all enemies threatening them' that it was supposed to be before Garrosh.

[Skytotem]

Baine did check with Garrosh afterwards, but Garrosh didn't want to help him. He wanted to see if Baine was even worthy of the Horde and if he could enforce his rule alone.
.

You made that up, Baine didn't talk to Garrosh until after Magatha was dead

[Amarisus]

I'm just waiting for the crazy level of bullshit they're going to unleash when they bring up Syl's redemption. I'm half expecting that it's going to involve her merging with a bunch of wisps at Elune's behest somehow reviving her back into a normal elf whilst at the same time becoming a true avatar of Elune who is forgiven by the goddess of all her crimes and eternally culture cucking Tyrande and Malf in order to allow her to beat down Final Form Two N'zoth in his last phase. She then apologises to everyone for her evil deeds as this was what she had always intended to do as Baine sheds a tear and Anduin secretly affirms that he knew she was good all along and Thrall just looks all chummy whilst Saurfang breaks down as his whole life is a lie. Sylvanas (now identified as Elvunas, idk I'm expecting some stupid naming convention) then says she intends to make up for all her crimes and resurrects Teldrassil as an even greater altar to Elune and inhabits it with the spirits of all elves lost during the Battle of Azeroth and starts to fade away like Ysera's spirit did during Legion. She waves goodbye to her sisters who just happen to both be there and closes her eyes as she looks to be at eternal peace at last...

Both Jaina and Alleria call her a bitch to top it all off. Next expansion comes about that unfortunately Elvunas unknowingly opened a portal to the Shadowlands when resurrecting Teldrassil and re-establishing it's connection to the Emerald Dream and in order to stop Azeroth (who's just had a big gooey bandaid of Azerite spread over the wound) from being mind controlled by the agents of the Dead working with the agents of the Void we have to travel through both the Emerald Dream and Shadowlands to achieve victory at the Soul of Azeroth.

I can definitely see this happening.

I almost kinda hope that happens just for the awfulness. The lore is already bad, might as well make it super bad on purpose so we can laugh at it, kinda like The Room lol

[Revamp Man]

I am telling you now it's going to be
Makes herself the villain
Unites both sides against her
Reveals goals
Goes into exile or something similar into the shadow lands
The end

She has the dagger
She led us to free the final old good
This was not done to join him or destroy azeroth but to end n'zoth once and for all.

She has never been a follower
She is not so weak that n'zoth can control her
She is on neither side of the balance

[Dartz1979]

Hopefully a no on that i hate the loss of any of my female favorite lore waifus.

[mickybrighteyes]

Voss has her good moments.

And Faol seems like the decent sort, if you can forgive him for being involved in the whole Calia thing.

pretty sure most people will view it as specifically 'FORSAKEN' and not undead.

Faol isn't forsaken much like how Jaina or Turalyon aren't of Stormwind.

It's a very knit picky way of looking at things and honestly most of the obviously non-evil FORSAKEN are very down played or eventually found as associated with some other organization.

Honestly it's a bit of a blind spot since they really hammered in some serious ptsd tropes along side a hefty helping of murder the living tropes back pre-cata.

[Soon-TM]

@Darknessvamp either you are Danuser on a smurf account, or you read his mind. Sounds silly and contrived enough as to actually appear in-game

[sillag]

theres no way to redeem sylvanas by any laws of morality known to mankind. thats just how it is. sadly the horde playerbase has a good number of alt-right neo nazis, mostly blood elf rpers, who will argue against this but you dont need to listen to their opinions because they think hitler was right

now theres 4 ways it can go down

1. sylvanas stays pure evil and leaves to become a main antagonist. most likely option because they are hard telegraphing a laughable horde redemption through baine, and theres no way sylvanas can stick around if the factions are ever going to be friends again. they cant kill sylvanas because she makes too much money so this is whats going to happen

2. sylvanas gets her redemption by conveniently dying, thus making her unaccountable for her war crimes. this is what they should have done with grom but for some reason the imbeciles who write this game thought they could have their cake and eat it too. this is what they did do with grom 1.0 so why they didnt understand that they needed grom 2.0 to die for his redemption is a mystery. this isnt advanced storytelling this is a common thing that happens. i mean it happens with darth vader.

3. sylvanas gets killed and not redeemed. doubt they will have the balls to kill her but who knows. the problem is theres no real successor and dont even tell me nathanos could do it because nathanos is not a character but an accessory to sylvanas. its like saying anduin's hat could be king after him. theres just no substance to nathanos without sylvanas.

4. sylvanas gets the full kerrigan treatment we're all dreading. i dont think they will do this honestly. in 8.0 it was a chance but they have taken her so far off the deep end now i just cant imagine them trying the reversal. however there is a suggestion now that sylvanas is gonna be controlled by xal'atah and there is a very real possibility that blizzard's gaggle of shit-eating neanderthals who we laughingly refer to as "storywriters" only because there is no better polite term for them may very well try to tell us "she was only crazy because of xal'atath, thank goodness you heroes got it off her. she's back to normal now" and when people ask didnt she burn down teldrassil and kill all those kids before she got the dagger, blizzard will just ignore them like they always do when little things like "their previous writing from earlier in this same expansion" gets in the way of their epic storytelling

man i really dont think they will go for kerrigan but i hope they do because sheer retarded entertainment value is the only avenue bfa has left to be good

Infracted.

[Mehrunes]

@Zulkhan In case you needed an updated version of your sig.