Tim Cook: 'I Don't Think a Four-Year Degree is Necessary to Be Proficient at Coding'

[Kelathos]

Proficiency doesn't matter to employers. I can debug C# scripts and code some very basic shit but that won't even get me an entry level position. However, if I had a degree and zero actual ability to do the limited stuff I can do, I'd be much more likely to find a job.

That's because the jobs are filtered. No human will ever see you without enough checks by those boxes on the form.

[Themius]

Coding is more about being able to think on a certain abstract level and practical experience rather than 4 years of experience learning about the history and syntax of javascript.

What cs degree is history and just syntax of javascript? A lot of courses have literally 2 courses one in python and one in java and then it is all in on theory.

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You don't need a degree to do some coding, that's true, but someone with 4+ years of academic exerience will have a broader perspective and a wider portfolio of abstract abilities than some autodidact will have. Maybe the programmer being the mechanic and the academic being the engineer that designs the car is an apt analogy.

And Cooks main motivation will be having to pay less for able programmers anyway.

People often hate on cs degree if they just want to be a coder but what about longer term? What if you decide to go into research or what if you decide you want to make the switch into other areas of cs that require a firmer understanding on the theory?

If all you want to do is code and build websites or applications then a CS degree may be overkill. If you want to maybe do those things but unsure what else you want to do a degree is perfect because you get a deeper understanding and can move into many areas.

[Adam Jensen]

Absolutely true, but you need more than coding skills to be truly successful.

Sure. Understanding an AGILE environment, understanding teamwork and negotiation, those are necessary too, but can't really be taught in college (well AGILE can be) and rather come from experience.

Critical thinking, logic and problem solving can be learned through MOOCs and other online courses. Understanding environment and DevOps concepts, like Git, CI, testing, etc, can also be done through cheap or even free MOOCs and demonstrated by building personal portfolio projects.

Most of the skills required to be a good programmer can be achieved without a degree.

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If you want to get into any cs that includes heavy statistics.. typically you would need to.

I mean, if you're doing some crazy ML or big data stuff, I can see the need for a degree being much more prominent, as those fields require a lot of mathematical and statistical knowledge.

But if you're making basic web apps or mobile apps for a company, no. Those don't really need a degree.

[OmniSkribe]

People seems to forget few simple things:

1) Computer Science degree is not about coding. It's about math and engineering. There is difference to being front-end developer that works with web-forms and engineer that knows computer from A to Z.
My bet is average self-tought front-end developers never heard of game theory and discrete mathematics.

2) Degree means that you can actually educate yourself and university is not only about sitting and listening lectures about 50-90's eras of computer science. It's about self-education, control and ability to work in groups.

[Themius]

Sure. Understanding an AGILE environment, understanding teamwork and negotiation, those are necessary too, but can't really be taught in college (well AGILE can be) and rather come from experience.

Critical thinking, logic and problem solving can be learned through MOOCs and other online courses. Understanding environment and DevOps concepts, like Git, CI, testing, etc, can also be done through cheap or even free MOOCs and demonstrated by building personal portfolio projects.

Most of the skills required to be a good programmer can be achieved without a degree.

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I mean, if you're doing some crazy ML or big data stuff, I can see the need for a degree being much more prominent, as those fields require a lot of mathematical and statistical knowledge.

But if you're making basic web apps or mobile apps for a company, no. Those don't really need a degree.

Well yeah which is why basic web design, if that's what you truly want to do then a CS degree, may be overkill.

[Kelathos]

I would assume the degree is also meant to impart some industry standards onto people.

[Kataroku]

"I don't think a four-year degree is necessary to be proficient at coding" - a perspective from your typical outsider.

What does he mean by "proficient"? Yes, a self-taught programmer can build an application, but is the code they wrote maintainable? Efficient? Secure?

I saw many self-taught programmers entering college and believing that they were "top shit" and knew everything already - which was probably true for the introductory first year, but whom quickly began to drown in their second and third year because *gasp* designing software on paper without typing a single line of code is hard!

Such people might be "proficient" at building games and general business applications; but I sure as hell wouldn't want one working on a mission-critical project.

Having said that, however, I do concede that I wouldn't hire 90% of the students who graduated from their four-year degree. Most still couldn't code their way out of a wet paper bag - how does THAT happen?

[Zandalarian Paladin]

One thing I noticed with people who have a degree versus people who act in a more autonomous way is that individuals with degrees will often limit themselves to what they learn in class.

A lot of the time (but not always, mind you), I think a lot of people assume that a degree will score you a job and thus they don't feel the need to push farther. Whereas an autonomous learner will constantly push themselves beyond what a regular class would show since it comes from an innate will to learn.

This is a massive generalization, I know, but still it's pretty accurate when you look at the big picture.

[Nobleshield]

Do you know good coders who don't have a 4 year degree?

Yes. I only have a 2-year degree and I'm fairly proficient at C# and SQL. Enough to make over $70k a year as a developer.

[Sinyc]

Do you know good coders who don't have a 4 year degree?

Me. Transferred to Dev in January 2018, been promoted twice in a year and a half in DEV. Gotten a perf bonus every 6 months (my company doesn't do every quarter, we do every 6 months).

We have a Dev on my team that has a degree from Carnegie Mellon, and they are an idiot unless its something specifically referenced in a book (think regurgitating answers to a standardized test). Aka book smarts, but not real world job smart.

[NoRest4Wicked]

Very true, I have a 4 year CS degree and have been a Software Engineer for several years. I know several self taught programmers that are great and have more passion than a lot of degree holders.

It comes down to where you want to work too, like for my current job the Government contract requires everyone we hire to have at least a 4 year BS CS degree, preferably a CEG degree. We can't even interview you if you don't have a degree, based on our contract alone.

[bmjclark]

A degree for programming gets your foot in the door. A lot of people won't give you the time of day without the degree or without job experience. Without the former it's pretty hard to get the latter.

[xGLxAnubis]

You can tell the incels are out and about when they're bitching about gold diggers when it was the woman who got scammed.

Wrong thread.

[Kataroku]

an autonomous learner will constantly push themselves beyond what a regular class would show since it comes from an innate will to learn.

Exactly this.

College, in my opinion, is only meant to broaden a student's overview of their chosen field. Too many people go into CS expecting it to be all about learning the syntax of a single programming language, when that's only around 5% of the course material.

Self-taught programmers aren't going to start googling system design on their own, because they don't even know how it would help them.

In layman's terms, college is about filling your toolbox up with tools. If you never knew what a screwdriver was, then you'd be living blissfully unaware of how much easier your job could be.

[Celista]

Wrong thread.

Oh weird, I will move my snarky comment over to the right one lol.

[Sluvs]

Well, I don't know about coding, but in my area, people rarely use the skills that they learn at college.

In a lot of jobs, experience will trump what you learn at college, no matter what. And I could see coding being one these jobs.

[OmniSkribe]

Serious question: is game theory a good math course to take for computer programming, and why?

I'm a compsci major pursuing a math masters, already have discrete, and I have a few options for electives, want to take ones that are closely aligned with compsci.

Obvious answer: It depends on IT field i presume. Where I studied it was mandatory course, you either pass it or get out. But never found much use it in my daily work.

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Well, I don't know about coding, but in my area, people rarely use the skills that they learn at college.

In a lot of jobs, experience will trump what you learn at college, no matter what. And I could see coding being one these jobs.

That's the problem of many colleges/universities. You are given theory but not how to apply it. That's why successful people usually find their field during college and hone skills at that time graduating with actual experience.

[Cosmic Janitor]

An overwhlming amount of programmers that I encountered switched over to programming after they got a degree in something else entirely. It's not like this discipline has been around for 80 years.. Most of the older guys were practically self taught, some might have closer related foundations from things like systems engineering or EE, but I've seen plenty mechnical engineers that went for it as well. It also depends heavily on your country when official programms even became available.

[xGLxAnubis]

Yes. I only have a 2-year degree and I'm fairly proficient at C# and SQL. Enough to make over $70k a year as a developer.

Where? 70k in California means you're a pretty bad coder; in Georgia you're practically the best.

OT: Depends on the goal. Strictly coding? 4 year degree isn't necessary. However, I've noticed 2 things:

1. Entry level Engineers with a degree tend to start out worse, but learn new languages, frameworks, and architecture much quicker (When compared to self taught/bootcamp), because they have less practical experience but a lot more theory and understanding of why/how.

2. People who complete a 4 year degree vs none (regardless of the degree), tend to be better at things like deadlines, interacting with people, staying focused/on task/self motivated, and seeing long projects through to end. This is because these are skills that help complete a 4 year degree. Not only does having these skills help obtain one, but you also learn and strengthen these skills. A 4 year degree isn't just about the manifest knowledge you acquire, but the most important thing are the latent skills.

Of course, the above are generalizations and based on my experienced. I've met people with and without degrees who don't fit into the above, but the majority of the Software Engineers I interact with follow this pattern pretty verbatim.
Source: I'm a Senior Software Engineer/Team Lead

[Vash The Stampede]

So what Tim Cook is saying is that College degrees are overrated. Thanks Cook for the obvious.