Pro-lifer argument: "what if your parents decided to abort you?!"

[slitheroutfromtherocks]

The "absurdity" is the pro-life position.

Nothing I presented as a counterpoint was absurd. It was a description of exactly how things are, pretty much throughout the developed world, as far as I'm aware.



Do you support forced harvesting of body tissue from the unwilling, if they're a match for a patient in need? Same argument; the life of one person, the right to control the use of one's body on the other.

Seriously, I don't think people consider what they're arguing on this topic. Someone yells "but the BABIES" and people's minds shut down.

Organ donation could be forced and no one would properly care that much all the major religions are fine with it. The main reason more people aren't organ donors is they're just lazy all the opinion polls have an overwhelmingly majority of people who support it but simply just don't check the box or go back to check the box just isn't something you really ever think of doing. As well as family members simply not knowing what the person wanted. The only other reason is conspiracy theory/fake news about how the doctors won't work as hard to save them. So it's not really a comparable argument and I guess there is no political will to force the issue and make it mandatory. It's also not a comparable argument because your removing organs from a dead person nothing will bring them back they won't go on to live another long life. There are two lives in the abortion argument.

[Chernobyll]

The whole my body my choice crap really falls apart when discussing a child. These women are arguing they they can terminate a pregnancy whenever they don't want a child or "can't afford it" then turning around and telling any father that they have no right to the choice. If the baby isn't alive why in the hell is the dad responsible for it? It takes TWO people to create a LIFE, and all this crap about how a dad can't choose to walk away because he can't afford it or doesn't want it just really make me laugh at this whole pro choice movement.

If you heathens wanna murder children and the law allows it, fine. But don't you dare go grandstanding that someone else has to make sure you can provide for your child when apparantly everyone should be free to do whatever they want.

That life belongs every bit as much to the man as to the woman, so we either need to stop forcing dads to pay child support for unwanted children, or stop letting women kill them off at their choosing. This whole damn abortion debate is all about people being selfish, no one gives a damn about life unless it's their own.

When the child support for unwanted children comes into topic, pro-choice rather walk away than debate.
Like abortion, it will be inevitable. Once abortion ban is lifted everywhere, child support will no longer be enforced - because the woman will be empowered by the choice of not having the children, thus, no child support is needed.

[Lollis]

Military killings the exception, of course

Military killings are not murder because the declaration of war is a legal status which says that killing during war conditions is legal.

Murders happen in wars, and there are conventions written out that state under exactly what terms a killing during wartime is considered illegal and therefore murder; killing people who surrender for example is considered murder.

[Ghostpanther]

Brain death is misdiagnosed sometimes.

And medical doctors can be flat out wrong at times.

[ohwell]

Pretty different from being braindead (ie: no consciousness), don't be disingenuous.

You're the one being disingenuous. A baby is NOT brain dead. That's a fact.

[Thage]

My response to that argument: what if I wish that they did?

My go to is generally, "I suppose I'd be significantly less interested in this topic, but here we are."

[Jonnusthegreat]

Military killings are not murder because the declaration of war is a legal status which says that killing during war conditions is legal.

Murders happen in wars, and there are conventions written out that state under exactly what terms a killing during wartime is considered illegal and therefore murder; killing people who surrender for example is considered murder.

The US hasn't declared war in almost 80 years. So everything post WW2 has not been through a declaration of war. It's just some people telling other people to go places and murder people to get shit done.

[Kapadons]

I used to be pro-life. Then I met every democrat post Trump and have become staunchly pro-choice. I think your mom should abort you now with no consequence if she chooses.

[Heladys]

Being declared brain dead does not mean the person is no longer a person because cases like this do happen. https://www.lifenews.com/2016/01/12/...from-the-coma/

That's fucking bullshit. An openly pro-life propaganda site posts an extreme drinker's word that "doctors thought I was brain dead" at her word.

Show me the actual brain death diagnosis. These things aren't in debate. There is a medical standard here, and it is real.

[Th3Scourge]

I struggle to find how anyone can be firm on their position on either side. I fully get the argument for body autonomy but reject this new wave where abortions seem to be promoted. At the same time I fully understand why pro-lifers would see the killing of an unborn as murder. It's certainly not a black and white argument.

I guess I'd find myself on the pro-life side after a certain time period has elapsed. I think once you are past the point where severe defects are detectable (downs etc) and choose not to terminate then there's no turning back. I wouldn't hesitate to abort if there was a severe defect.

[Ghostpanther]

That's fucking bullshit. An openly pro-life propaganda site posts an extreme drinker's word that "doctors thought I was brain dead" at her word.

Show me the actual brain death diagnosis. These things aren't in debate. There is a medical standard here, and it is real.

I do not think you would accept any other cases from whatever website. And sure they are debatable. Which is why the thread was created in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -

I struggle to find how anyone can be firm on their position on either side. I fully get the argument for body autonomy but reject this new wave where abortions seem to be promoted. At the same time I fully understand why pro-lifers would see the killing of an unborn as murder. It's certainly not a black and white argument.

I guess I'd find myself on the pro-life side after a certain time period has elapsed. I think once you are past the point where severe defects are detectable (downs etc) and choose not to terminate then there's no turning back. I wouldn't hesitate to abort if there was a severe defect.

I am firm in my belief a human life begins at conception. But I know most are not going to agree with that. A law forbidding abortions after a heartbeat or 8 weeks, is better than none.

[Kapadons]

I struggle to find how anyone can be firm on their position on either side. I fully get the argument for body autonomy but reject this new wave where abortions seem to be promoted. At the same time I fully understand why pro-lifers would see the killing of an unborn as murder. It's certainly not a black and white argument.

I guess I'd find myself on the pro-life side after a certain time period has elapsed. I think once you are past the point where severe defects are detectable (downs etc) and choose not to terminate then there's no turning back. I wouldn't hesitate to abort if there was a severe defect.

Surprisingly coherent answer. Rarity for these boards. I commend you sir/madam/ze

[Xkiller9000]

There are no pro-life arguments.

Seeing that this is still a topic of contention and discussion in the US is evidence in itself that the US socially is a few decades behind on the rest of the modern world.

this, pro choice doesnt mean people HAVE to, for obvious reasons lmfao, its just keeping hte option available.

A big reason i see, is why have a child at a time in your life that you cant support it sufficiently, when you can abort, wait, and have another child when you are capable of support it, whether it be financially, mentally, etc.

[Theodarzna]

My response to that argument: what if I wish that they did?

3edgy5me.

In truth, though I think a valid case can be made that as awful and horrific as abortion is, a good case can be made that its wrong to require someone to bare burdens such as a cripple or mentally handicapped child. So you make a solid case, not all life necessarily should exist, and not every person has value or worth, and in the end it is a lot to ask a couple to bare the burden for a lifetime of a defective child.

But the culture of celebrating Abortion, praising it, or hating children and despising family is a bad look for Lefties.

[Th3Scourge]

Surprisingly coherent answer. Rarity for these boards. I commend you sir/madam/ze

It's a topic that's so charged with emotion for obvious reasons (killing of an unborn, the loss of a potential child) that it's just so hard to just 'pick a side'. I know women who've had the procedures done and it emotionally changed them. Was it the right thing to do? Maybe, but at what cost?

What I find disturbing is vicious physical and verbal attacks on pro-lifers that have circulated in recent times (I think it was that Democrat politician, and some others of what look like peaceful protesters being physically attacked). I don't know how this adds any value to discussion

[Endus]

You're the one being disingenuous. A baby is NOT brain dead. That's a fact.

We're not talking about babies. We're talking about a fetus.

And the only reason you can't call an early-term fetus "brain-dead" is because it was never "brain-alive" in the first place. That occurs somewhere around the 21st week at the earliest.

I do not think you would accept any other cases from whatever website. And sure they are debatable. Which is why the thread was created in the first place.

Brain-death is the definition of death. If you were brain-dead, you were a corpse. By definition.

You seem to be confusing comas and vegetative states with brain-death. They aren't the same thing.

[ohwell]

Some*thing* braindead in the hospital isn't a some*one* with rights, apart from the residual body autonomy right that presists past death.

How is that something whereas the other is a someone? You're now going in circles claiming that brain activity makes the person and now it doesn't? By the logic presented in all of these threads and earlier in this one, a person is no longer a person if they are brain dead.

[Endus]

But the culture of celebrating Abortion, praising it, or hating children and despising family is a bad look for Lefties.

Also not something anyone does. Nobody says "hooray, I'm pregnant, now I get to have an abortion!"

Stop making up utter tosh and pretending that's what reality is.

[ohwell]

We're not talking about babies. We're talking about a fetus.

And the only reason you can't call an early-term fetus "brain-dead" is because it was never "brain-alive" in the first place. That occurs somewhere around the 21st week at the earliest.



Brain-death is the definition of death. If you were brain-dead, you were a corpse. By definition.

You seem to be confusing comas and vegetative states with brain-death. They aren't the same thing.

You seem to be confusing and injecting this idea that the vagina has magical life powers. It's a hole/tunnel. If there is brain activity it's a baby.

[Endus]

You seem to be confusing and injecting this idea that the vagina has magical life powers. It's a hole/tunnel. If there is brain activity it's a baby.

Did you not read my post?

That occurs around Week 21 at the earliest.

Also, nothing I said even mentioned the word "vagina". I'm talking about the biology of human development, and medical and legal definitions.