Pro-lifer argument: "what if your parents decided to abort you?!"

[Machismo]

What if I had contraception, that got "needled" by a woman? Or what if she lied to me she used hormones? Or what if i got raped by a woman?

Well, if you can prove it in court, let me know.

People are allowed to lie.

If she raped you, then you are a victim of a crime, and she should go to prison.

So, you have any other things you want to try and deflect with?

[Yarathir]

Exactly, they both made a conscious decision, and if no other actions are taken, the result is a baby in 9 months. They are both equally responsible for the consequences.

Yes, so if she can choose to forfeit all responsibility and end said baby's life, he can choose to forfeit his responsibilities whenever she chooses to not end it, if he so wishes.

Sounds good, doesn't it?

[MatadorMedia]

I assume this is intended as a philosophical debate and - as with any hypothetical situation - the thread title presents an unanswerable question. We don't know what we would do (or what our parents would do) in an imagined circumstance because there are incalculable mitigating factors that play into actual decision-making. Your parents basically decide whether you live or die every day for the first several years of your existence so...

[Machismo]

If she does't want it and neither does he, there's adoption or they can leave it at a fire station.

It then becomes a ward of the state, so I hope you are also a huge fan of welfare and socialism.

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Yes, so if she can choose to forfeit all responsibility and end said baby's life, he can choose to forfeit his responsibilities whenever she chooses to not end it, if he so wishes.

Sounds good, doesn't it?

Sure, so long as she can also dump the newborn baby on him, just like you want him to be able to do to her.

In the end, you are either arguing against bodily autonomy, or in favor of men not being responsible for the consequences of their actions.

[Endus]

They do have that right, it's called abortion.

How can you even bring up the welfare of the child when you support abortions? That seems a little contradictory.

Abortion does not end parental obligations; there aren't any such obligations to end at that point. You're basically just lying about really basic shit, here.

As for the second; a fetus is not a person.

[crewskater]

It then becomes a ward of the state, so I hope you are also a huge fan of welfare and socialism.

Are you against adoption? It sort of comes off that way.

I don't mind welfare at all, my mom was on it when she divorced my dad with me and my 2 sisters. Some parts of socialism are good. I don't get why you support women giving up their responsibilities but not men.

[Yarathir]

Sure, so long as she can also dump the newborn baby on him, just like you want him to be able to do to her.

In the end, you are either arguing against bodily autonomy, or in favor of men not being responsible for the consequences of their actions.

You are acting like women have no choice. He "opened his legs" and put his seed in her, so he should support the offspring if she so desires to keep it, but she should be able to terminate its life against his wishes, freely, because sex is not consent to pregnancy?

Which is it? Or are you just terribly sexist?

[Machismo]

You are acting like women have no choice. He "opened his legs" and put his seed in her, so he should support the offspring if she so desires to keep it, but she should be able to terminate its life against his wishes, freely, because sex is not consent to pregnancy?

Which is it? Or are you just terribly sexist?

I'm not acting like that at all, I'm saying they both willingly took an action, knowing that the consequences of that action could be a baby. Any other stance you think I'm taking, is merely you trying to project your obvious issues.

Like I said, you guys are either arguing that women should not have bodily autonomy, or that men should not be responsible for their actions.

[Rennadrel]

Bragging that you can make fallacious appeals to emotion to avoid having to come up with a rational defense for your position isn't the strong argument you seem to think it is.

Seems to work with a lot of current left leaning philosophies, much like right leaning philosophies of the present and years gone by.

[Pony Soldier]

What if I was aborted? Well first of all I'd be relieved from living in this shit society we live in now where there's 101 different genders, women are precious life forms and deserve to be treated like goddesses, and are always the victims no questions asked, everything you say, think or do is racist/sexist or both, and black people are never at fault for anything, they are constantly being oppressed everyday and it's all because of the straight white male. Second of all I'd be dead so I wouldn't give a shit one way or another.

My ultimate stance on this is kind of mixed because it depends on the situation. In the case of rape let the woman do what she wants with HER body. It belongs to no one else but her so she has to right to do whatever she wants with the baby. What these "pro-lifers" are saying, the ones who think abortion is totally wrong regardless of the situation, is that if the woman gets raped and ends up being pregnant she's forced to have that baby and care for it OR she can put it up for adoption and let the kid live a life without knowing who his/her parents are. Imagine the kid's reaction when he/she finds out that he/she is the product of a serial rapist who has no interest in knowing or meeting him/her. It might even lead to the kid developing severe depression and ultimately committing suicide. Is that what these "pro-lifers" want? Who would want a child to grow up that way? It'd be more humane to abort the unborn child to keep him/her from growing up in such a shit way.

Now there's the complicated issue of the father wanting the child while the mother doesn't. If this were the situation my previous statement would become questionable as I would feel the father has a right to see the kid born if he is fully willing to raise the child on his own. If it's one of those situations where the father really wants the kid but the mother doesn't who gets the final say? This is what should be discussed not whether or not abortion is wrong. What's wrong is complete strangers wanting control over a woman's body. It's wrong and a bit scary to be honest.

[Machismo]

Are you against adoption? It sort of comes off that way.

I don't mind welfare at all, my mom was on it when she divorced my dad with me and my 2 sisters. Some parts of socialism are good. I don't get why you support women giving up their responsibilities but not men.

I'm not against adoption at all. I'm saying that before a baby is adopted, it will be a ward of the state. if it doesn't get adopted, it will be a ward of the state. That's a lot of welfare, so you better be prepared for a massive tax increase. As it stands, you are arguing that people should not be responsible for the consequences of their actions.

I have already addressed your last sentence, and you are simply wrong. You either need to go back and read what i said, or you are being disingenuous.

[Thirza]

f

You couldn't keep it on topic and your perceptions about fringe justice crusaders are unrealistic.

[Machismo]

What if I was aborted? Well first of all I'd be relieved from living in this shit society we live in now where there's 101 different genders, women are precious life forms and deserve to be treated like goddesses, and are always the victims no questions asked, everything you say, think or do is racist/sexist or both, and black people are never at fault for anything, they are constantly being oppressed everyday and it's all because of the straight white male. Second of all I'd be dead so I wouldn't give a shit one way or another.

My ultimate stance on this is kind of mixed because it depends on the situation. In the case of rape let the woman do what she wants with HER body. It belongs to no one else but her so she has to right to do whatever she wants with the baby. What these "pro-lifers" are saying, the ones who think abortion is totally wrong regardless of the situation, is that if the woman gets raped and ends up being pregnant she's forced to have that baby and care for it OR she can put it up for adoption and let the kid live a life without knowing who his/her parents are. Imagine the kid's reaction when he/she finds out that he/she is the product of a serial rapist who has no interest in knowing or meeting him/her. It might even lead to the kid developing severe depression and ultimately committing suicide. Is that what these "pro-lifers" want? Who would want a child to grow up that way? It'd be more humane to abort the unborn child to keep him/her from growing up in such a shit way.

Now there's the complicated issue of the father wanting the child while the mother doesn't. If this were the situation my previous statement would become questionable as I would feel the father has a right to see the kid born if he is fully willing to raise the child on his own. If it's one of those situations where the father really wants the kid but the mother doesn't who gets the final say? This is what should be discussed not whether or not abortion is wrong. What's wrong is complete strangers wanting control over a woman's body. It's wrong and a bit scary to be honest.

We get it, the world hates you, and you are always a victim.

/s

[Yarathir]

I'm not acting like that at all, I'm saying they both willingly took an action, knowing that the consequences of that action could be a baby. Any other stance you think I'm taking, is merely you trying to project your obvious issues.

Like I said, you guys are either arguing that women should not have bodily autonomy, or that men should not be responsible for their actions.

No, I am saying that if one party gets to spread their legs and drop all responsibility as they see fit, so too should the other party. Simple as that, no need to make it seem more confusing in order to dodge.

[Endus]

No, I am saying that if one party gets to spread their legs and drop all responsibility as they see fit, so too should the other party. Simple as that, no need to make it seem more confusing in order to dodge.

And the first doesn't happen.

Next social issue to solve?

[Yarathir]

And the first doesn't happen.

Next social issue to solve?

You are advocating for it to happen.

Next clever comment?

[Endus]

You are advocating for it to happen.

Next clever comment?

No. I'm not.

Abortion in no way gives anyone an "out" to any legal obligations.

[Yarathir]

No. I'm not.

Abortion in no way gives anyone an "out" to any legal obligations.

Dress it up however you want.

You know you're wrong, though- so you're just dancing around it, and it's cute.

[unfilteredJW]

Dress it up however you want.

You know you're wrong, though- so you're just dancing around it, and it's cute.

No, watching you bitch out over Endus rubbing your nose in the giant shit you just left on the rug is what’s cute.

[Machismo]

No, I am saying that if one party gets to spread their legs and drop all responsibility as they see fit, so too should the other party. Simple as that, no need to make it seem more confusing in order to dodge.

So, make them both be able to dump responsibility, by dropping the baby in the lap of the other.

Like I said... two arguments. You either want to take away bodily autonomy, or you don't want men to be responsible for their actions.