Is it REALLY vanilla WoW that people want or just the mechanics?

[Gratlim]

2-3 months the hype will be over and servers will be ghost towns

Or 2-3 month of proving it's the better version of the game with massive following and BFA servers will ghost towns.
Anyway, same sub and same money for Bli$$. So who cares? Or are you afraid Classic might really emply this last million or two of BFA active players?

[Tumile]

"Actual MMORPG" yet has far worse raid mechanics. Ok.

MMORPG, Not Raid Simulator. as much as i hate Kungen, the guy literally has a viral video on t his subject that is 100% spot on. if raiding is the only part of ur "MMORPG" then it isnt an MMORPG. Classic, and TBC for that matter, 80% of the gameplay was outside of raids. you literally spend more time preparing for raids than u do in the raids, consumeables, gold grinds, out of raid gear grinds etc.

the only thing blizzard has done well in a long ass time is raid mechanics. and to be honest, even they have gotten pretty shit. anyone who thinks Mythic Jaina is mechanically interesting or difficult is a mouthbreathing downy. It's about as close as we can get to Vanilla level of raid mechanics. The rest of the raid was 100x better mechanically, but was sadly undertuned, and uldir was just a joke, antorus was a buggy poorly tuned mess as well unless you got to the bosses extremely late. requiring ur entire raid to have immunities for 2 bosses, what a joke.

[Kolvarg]

They want a raid or die MMorpg only reason they want classic.Iill stick to my retail non raid or die instead BFA FTW!

Both versions can be "raid or die", depending on your taste, expectations and state of your character, and of course your definition of what "raid or die" is exactly.

Personally with BfA (or really most of the recent expansions) have been mostly about raiding for me. Both Legion and now BfA I was only active for a few weeks after the expansion launch, and after that I almost exclusively only log in on raid nights because everything else in the game is just unattractive to me and feels fairly boring to play. I could get some entertainment from the completionist stuff and overall just getting achievements done, but I realized I can get much better use of that time simply playing other more entertaining games and also get more variety. Classic on the other hand I'm mostly looking forward to because of the leveling, I'm not sure yet if I'll even do any endgame content, let alone raiding

With that said I'd argue Classic can't really be considered "raid or die" at least for the first few months of its existence. Classic is basically impossible to be "raid or die" without first having invested a reasonable amount of game time in your character doing many other things, between leveling, initial gearing (without catch-up), attunements, different gear sets for specific boss fights, consumables, etc.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

If Blizzard or any other company could capture the RPG back into MMORPG like vanilla had I think it could gain ground. But it likely wouldn't be a hot fire out of the box. It would have to grow, be recognized, and seen to be supported. The problem is in the current economics of gaming companies time and growth are impossible. It has to be made as cheaply has possible, released as fast as possible, make as much money as fast as possible, be exploited as long as possible, and then finally replaced as fast as possible with the next thing that does all those things as well.

[exochaft]

Yes, that's true for me.

I miss RPG feeling that old WoW had, I miss big open world, I miss talking to other players who aren't members of small guild, I miss when professions took time and effort to level up and there was some depth in each profession, I miss when there were no daily/weekly artificial limits, I miss when there was no offline progression bullshit, I miss when characters were separate and each character mattered, I miss when I wasn't called hero (and every other player too) one and only saviour that makes me want to cringe, I miss slow paced enjoyable game, I miss not having artificial modes to replace content, I miss not being shoved into whatever latest patch offers, I miss having to work myself towards goals and setting those goals myself, I miss not having artificial schedule, I miss not having account-wide progression idiocy, I miss not being showered in gear on every turn, I miss simple classes when game was more focused on social aspects than mechanics, I miss little things like runes of teleportation to teleport.... and many other things.

It was completely different game. Looking forward to playing it again. I will enjoy it much more than I enjoyed modern WoW after MoP.

There's quite a few things that you listed that I miss from older versions of WoW. Back in classic, my work schedule was pretty demanding, and the best part about WoW back then was that I never felt behind if I missed a day or a week of game time. Even if I didn't have much time to play, anything that required effort to do felt meaningful on some level. World PvP wasn't some forced or artificially generated activity, as it pretty much spawned naturally in SS/TM and STV quite often due to player-instigated escalations. There wasn't cheesy quick-escapes like sharding/phasing to avoid PvP if you're losing, and mobs in the world were actually dangerous compared to what live servers have us easily handling, making them a useful tool in besting your enemies. And that's just the tip of the iceberg as to the many things I've been missing in WoW.

What I find extremely boring in a game is when there's a certain amount of hand-holding to make it so you cannot fail. In classic, you could die extremely easily in the world if you weren't careful. I remember trying to tackle quests in the orange/red difficulty for my level, and pulling more than one mob was instant death. In BFA content, I can easily pull 20 mobs while leveling or at max level without death even entering my mind. Even beyond surviving in the world, so many aspects of current WoW make it so you cannot fail in essence, or certain aspects of the game are just trivial despite potentially being centerpieces. To be fair, it's not BFA's fault, it's just the culmination of all the design decisions since classic leading up until now. Many things about the current game that drive me nuts almost have to be there for what the game is designed to be now, and a portion of the subscriber audience has been conditioned to want certain things from WoW as it currently is.

If anything, I kind of hoped Legion would be the last expansion to some degree, especially from the RP standpoint of our characters. Classic was all about us being random, no-name adventurers making a name for ourselves in the world. Legion was sort of the pinnacle of making a name for ourselves, as we became the leaders of our classes... and there's not much room for character growth beyond that, unless we start placing ourselves on the thrones of our kingdoms. In BFA, I almost feel like I'm a glorified errand boy, especially since we pretty much tossed our class leader mantles aside and lead... no one. It's almost like a demotion in some respects, although I'm not sure what my char did to deserve such a demotion and no longer lead a large company (even WoD, for it's flaws, had us in charge of a garrison and mass of followers/troops). Maybe we're tactical advisors/emissaries now?

[MoanaLisa]

2-3 months the hype will be over and servers will be ghost towns

Or 2-3 month of proving it's the better version of the game with massive following and BFA servers will ghost towns.

Neither one is likely. I think there will be a lot of cross-traffic going both directions. You're correct that with one subscription for both it doesn't matter. That makes the whole argument pointless and I really wish people would stop it. It really seems to be about forum posters with a desire to see one game or another "win". In that case both games likely lose. The "win" is if both games do really well. Victory laps are stupid in this case.

[Perkunas]

Neither one is likely. I think there will be a lot of cross-traffic going both directions. You're correct that with one subscription for both it doesn't matter. That makes the whole argument pointless and I really wish people would stop it. It really seems to be about forum posters with a desire to see one game or another "win". In that case both games likely lose. The "win" is if both games do really well. Victory laps are stupid in this case.

You'd think there's room for 2 different versions of the game in 2019 but both sides love spitting venom towards the other.

[jakeic]

You'd think there's room for 2 different versions of the game in 2019 but both sides love spitting venom towards the other.

One side is bitter because their game was changed to fit a model that is unpalatable to them and the other side is worried that the game will be changed to favor someone else. I don't think it really matters for people who enjoy BfA, the game is so completely different that shifting it back toward vanilla seems impossible.

[Perkunas]

One side is bitter because their game was changed to fit a model that is unpalatable to them and the other side is worried that the game will be changed to favor someone else.

Oh, I understand why, but it doesn't change the fact that there's still room for both models. Neither infringing on the other. I despise what the game has become but it's too late for the devs to massively change their vision and goals for retail and now that I have Classic I really hope people who enjoy retail stick to that and leave us alone.

[kendro1200]

Classic is popular now because it's new. I still say the majority of people who play it quit by 40. Blizz doesn't, and shouldn't, use Vanilla as a blueprint to create a 2020 MMO. The hard ship sailed when Wildstar shut down.

Now that said, I do think from browsing the forums long enough this beta, a whole lotta people didn't ask for what they wanted. They played Private Servers and it tainted their memories of Classic. So when they wanted a game like Nost, they asked for Classic when what they wanted was Mythic Difficulty WoW.

Wildstar had a lot of issues, but I wouldn't say that difficulty really was the problem. I played Wildstar, I loved the idea, I loved the difficulty, but there were choices they made to try and simplify some parts of the game and other parts they seem to pointlessly make as convoluted in a blind chase for "hardcore". Reducing active abilities to a small number, as was the trend at the time to make games more appealing to the MOBA crowd, was the biggest. Another problem was the combat was not smooth. The combat was better than SWTOR, but not as good as WoW. The game had a great world setting, but they didn't use it, relying on an early WoW and EQ-like system for dispensing lore. WoW had a lot of world building already done, and points of interests already existing before it was released because of the RTS's, and the word of mouth of those bringing friends into the game. WC3 was a huge success because of its campaign and map making tool (which led to DotA), it got the premise of the world that the Warcraft series inhabits out to a lot of people. Wildstar was building a franchise from scratch, they only thing they had going for them was that people were interested in an MMO better than WoW. If people want something better than something else, that means all aspects have to be greater, not just some. The rant could go on and on though. As much as I'm sad that Wildstar did fail, because it did have a really interesting setting, Vanilla WoW is not a bad blueprint.
What was good about WoW when it first came out, was that it was an RPG. There was a lot of concepts taken from D&D, Diablo 2 and EQ when the gameplay was being made for the game that housed the Warcraft Universe. Having a variety of tasks mixed together that may require more than a few people, and making activities matter. That is probably the biggest thing about early WoW that is lost the most in the current iteration. Your activities in the early parts of WoW mattered. Each level meant something, each gear drop meant something and had a use. Each quest was useful and budgeted for. Every stat point on a piece of gear mattered. Today none of that matters because there is something 5 minutes away that will do the exact same thing. Levels 31 through 44 really don't matter because your next talent point until 45. The gear you get is normalized to keep you moving at the same pace at every level. Every aspect of the game is just so thoroughly over-engineered, with an intent for user retention for quarterly reports.
Granted the end game gear farming aspects of Vanilla WoW were like this. It took me 34 runs through Undead Strat to get my Wildheart pants, but that was only one aspect of the game. The entire aspect of WoW now is like that, a lot of wasted effort with the very plain and bland attempt to keep you playing.

[Nobleshield]

i think it's a bit of both. The main thing people are missing is the RPG elements that have slowly been taken away from the game over the years. Classic still had major issues (class design) which weren't fixed until expansions later, which I think will turn some people off because a key point in RPGs is that YOU get to pick what you play, and it has to be viable. However that's something that they fixed later and then went way too far with which is the crux of the problem.

It's my hope that Classic is successful and shows that people want the game to feel like an RPG again.

[AceofH]

"Actual MMORPG" yet has far worse raid mechanics. Ok.

the fact that you think that all that matters to an MMORPG is raid mechanics tells me all i need to know about you.

[Perkunas]

i think it's a bit of both. The main thing people are missing is the RPG elements that have slowly been taken away from the game over the years. Classic still had major issues (class design) which weren't fixed until expansions later, which I think will turn some people off because a key point in RPGs is that YOU get to pick what you play, and it has to be viable. However that's something that they fixed later and then went way too far with which is the crux of the problem.

It's my hope that Classic is successful and shows that people want the game to feel like an RPG again.

I personally think BC was the sweet spot. Niche roles were present and the game was at it's least homogenized state role-wise.

[AceofH]

Wildstar failed because it wasn't WoW and was targeting WoW customers.

To a lesser degree the same will be true with classic. It won't fail, but it will certainly fall to a niche part of the total player base. Vanilla wasn't a boom, Lich King was the boom player base wise. The majority of ex WoW players are Wrath Babies and they aren't gonna stick around with antiquated ass classic mechanics as they started playing the game when blizzard started drifting towards more QoL.

The people that actually want classic, played classic and properly remember classic are the ones who will stick around. That my friends is called a niche.

ummm this is wrong. the playerbase of wow saw very little growth during wrath at all. most the growth occured during vanilla and burning crusade.

- - - Updated - - -

Sure if you want to keep believing this you can go right ahead, but vanilla WoW wasn't even the top selling PC game in 2004-2006 and PC gaming was in shambles during that time, and using subscriber numbers that have always been propped up by pay by the hour cafes in Asia has always been a bad way to analyze the success of WoW.

Lich King was when the game became main stream. Classic WoW was simply the largest MMO, which was a niche market until the game actually exploded years later.

of course it wasn't the top selling game during that time frame. pc was incredibly niche to begin with and mmos were even smaller.
and no, wow was mainstream before wrath of the lich king sorry.
i know you deluded lich king fans like to herald it as the best ever, but stop lieing.

[sam86]

what i want is 3 things the most:
1- actual rpg instead of rng lottery, i want to count in weeks at most how long i can get my new cheat, not in decades, and no getting normal version of a gear now isn't best gear like in old times, u can lie all u want but the second u inspect someone with a titanforge max cheat u'll know that ur chest isn't best chest
2- strong community : mostly death of lfr of any form, be it cross realms zones, lfg/lfr, etc, the idea to invite ppl NOT from ur server makes ppl just random npcs that u (ab)use to do a dungeon then discard them and probably never will talk to them again, i don't remember i saw same person twice in m+ dungeons during legion
3- NO pruning : warlock had many different curses that don't even exist anymore, paladin had seals, and so on, blizz try to reduce abilities for easier pvp balance f8cked the game, i can't believe that my paladin had more spells 10 years ago than today, yes loads were situational but that what create a RPG game in first place : lot of situational spells + 2-3 core, i have more core abilities now and zero optional
probably worst victim of BFA is class identity, classes are the worst since game started, even WoD classes still had more unique abilities, i don't main shaman and i feel pissed on the remove of their most iconic feature: their totems, and so on

The hard ship sailed when Wildstar shut down.

did u play wildstar ? u can have max of 5 abilities to use entire FIGHT, u can 'cheat' that by buffing (some classes has 2 buffs) then change asap the buff buttons with active buttons before game start
i hate pruning blindly and consider it 2nd worst thing in game after LFG, and unlike LFG that i was idiot celebrating it way back in wrath (and i still beat myself mentally for how stupid i was) i'm against pruning since day 1, imagine play a game with only 5 spells
even dota had multiple heroes with more active spells in a fight than wildstar, if they wanted to mimic vanilla they f8cked the base core of the class itself

[MoanaLisa]

One side is bitter because their game was changed to fit a model that is unpalatable to them and the other side is worried that the game will be changed to favor someone else. I don't think it really matters for people who enjoy BfA, the game is so completely different that shifting it back toward vanilla seems impossible.

Instead of sitting on the sidelines the message should be "Play both. Enjoy them for what they are or not. But give each of them a chance and know that you can play both if you want." This other stuff is poisonous.

[AceofH]

I personally think BC was the sweet spot. Niche roles were present and the game was at it's least homogenized state role-wise.

bingo. my only real problems with bc were flying and arenas.

[Perkunas]

100% but at least flying was dumb expensive and you couldn't fly in the old world.

[Triceron]

For me, the spirit.

Mechanics can change all they want as long as the spirit of Vanilla is captured. Meaning Classes have a significant role, and overall teamwork is more important than balance. What really drove me to playing WoW was exploring a world that I was familiar with, but had never seen before. It's a hard thing to recapture today, but I'm definitely not one of the few who have fond memories of Vanilla for its minute-to-minute gameplay and for grinding up levels to fill in where quest chains simply ended and left me in the middle of nowhere.

[Ahlae]

Bit of everything, really. Classic is more of an RPG I like than BFA, same with the combat system. Though I liked BC, Wrath, and Cata more in those regards. I used to enjoy PvP immensely, and now I can't even do regular BGs without hating it.