Classic WoW Tier sets / offspec gear itemization

[Tantaburs]

oh man, i forgot about druids not having a real rez spell.

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You know what's better than spirit? Having more health, killing the enemy before it kills you, and a bandage. Health regen is faster for warriors, but it's still not anywhere near fast enough with any reasonable amount of spirit to justify taking it over something that can actually help you survive.

Unless your gear is really bad (like only white gear at level 30 bad) then you will be able to kill at least one mob without dying. I did a test on private servers (since i don't have beta) on the effect of Str vs Spirit. at level 42 i have 55 strength from gear. This adds an extra 29 damage to my weapon damage of ~251 which is about 11%. this means that assuming i never overkill a mob (which you obviously do often) i would kill mobs 11% slower if i had 0 strength on my gear. I have 22 spirit from gear which gives me 17.6 hps using the vanilla spirit formula. Level 25 food (which is the food i use as high level food is expensive and caps my health to quickly to be efficient gives me 32 hps. Which mean the difference that my fairly limited spirit gear gives me is equalt to half of the regen i get from eating this mean if i didn't have the amount ouf spirit i have i would spend about 25% longer regening my health. Those who can do math may notice that 25% is a larger number than the 11% perfect increase to mob kill speed.

But wait this isn't even what this shows this is my current gear not if we swapped the two stats. So lets instead assume i have as much str as i currently have spirit and as much spirit as i currently have strength. So that means i would have about 40% of the strength i have now so i would lose 60% of my added 29 weapon damage which is ~17 damage. 17 damage is ~7% of my current damage so again we will assume a perfect kill efficiency so i lose 7% time killing mobs. Now i gain 33 Spirit. 33 Spirit is 26.4 hps. My OOC Regen while eating currently is 64 so my OOC regen increases by 40%.

This means if I swapped my spirit and strength stats entirely I would spend 5% more time in combat but spend 40% less time in between combat.

Now lets look at spirit versus stam. I have 62 Stam on my gear. stamina give 10.5hp per point (I'm a tauren) for 62 stam is 651 HP. Again lets swap the numbers so i go to 22 Stam and lose 420 hp but gain 32 HPS OOC. This mean i have to spend a total of 14 seconds outside of combat between regen sessions before Spirit had given me more HP than the stamina would have given me.

You can say that Spirit is pointless all you want but the math shows you are wrong. I can do this with the other stats as well if you would like. Strength and Spirit are close and you obviously need a certain amount of strength but Spirit is at least as beneficial to leveling efficiency as Strength is and none of the other stats are close. Again in cases where you are trying to fight one big monster like an elite then spirit loses alot of its value or when you accidentally pull one too many mobs and don't have time spent OOC between regen seesions but for most situations spirit is at least as good as strength and better than any other stat.

[Shaetha]

Unless your gear is really bad (like only white gear at level 30 bad) then you will be able to kill at least one mob without dying. I did a test on private servers (since i don't have beta) on the effect of Str vs Spirit. at level 42 i have 55 strength from gear. This adds an extra 29 damage to my weapon damage of ~251 which is about 11%. this means that assuming i never overkill a mob (which you obviously do often) i would kill mobs 11% slower if i had 0 strength on my gear. I have 22 spirit from gear which gives me 17.6 hps using the vanilla spirit formula. Level 25 food (which is the food i use as high level food is expensive and caps my health to quickly to be efficient gives me 32 hps. Which mean the difference that my fairly limited spirit gear gives me is equalt to half of the regen i get from eating this mean if i didn't have the amount ouf spirit i have i would spend about 25% longer regening my health. Those who can do math may notice that 25% is a larger number than the 11% perfect increase to mob kill speed.

But wait this isn't even what this shows this is my current gear not if we swapped the two stats. So lets instead assume i have as much str as i currently have spirit and as much spirit as i currently have strength. So that means i would have about 40% of the strength i have now so i would lose 60% of my added 29 weapon damage which is ~17 damage. 17 damage is ~7% of my current damage so again we will assume a perfect kill efficiency so i lose 7% time killing mobs. Now i gain 33 Spirit. 33 Spirit is 26.4 hps. My OOC Regen while eating currently is 64 so my OOC regen increases by 40%.

This means if I swapped my spirit and strength stats entirely I would spend 5% more time in combat but spend 40% less time in between combat.

Now lets look at spirit versus stam. I have 62 Stam on my gear. stamina give 10.5hp per point (I'm a tauren) for 62 stam is 651 HP. Again lets swap the numbers so i go to 22 Stam and lose 420 hp but gain 32 HPS OOC. This mean i have to spend a total of 14 seconds outside of combat between regen sessions before Spirit had given me more HP than the stamina would have given me.

You can say that Spirit is pointless all you want but the math shows you are wrong. I can do this with the other stats as well if you would like. Strength and Spirit are close and you obviously need a certain amount of strength but Spirit is at least as beneficial to leveling efficiency as Strength is and none of the other stats are close. Again in cases where you are trying to fight one big monster like an elite then spirit loses alot of its value or when you accidentally pull one too many mobs and don't have time spent OOC between regen seesions but for most situations spirit is at least as good as strength and better than any other stat.

It makes you more vulnerable and loses you basically all the time you would have saved if you die ONCE ever because of it, and it makes you more likely to die because I'm not rolling troll. I also didn't say it was pointless. I just said it was basically always better to take a stat that lets you survive fights, you'll notice. A heavy silk bandage is 80/s and you can definitely have those at 42. In abundance if you've been grinding humanoids, which I always did. I don't know how long I spent grinding the ogres in Arathi. Nevermind the fact you could just carry and switch to the spirit gear if you really want to min max.(side question: where are you getting the numbers? I'm working off memory, which is that of spirit doing almost nothing for health regen. I can't find any data that's applicable to Classic. Just private server stuff, which are shown to be wrong in many places, and stuff from the demo, which was also off in many places(like 200% spell crits and WotLK regen changes.)

The fastest thing, though, for a warrior was just killing lower level mobs. You get so much better xp/time that way.

[Charge me Doctor]

While alot of things the OP has said are pretty meaningless and dumb this is not one of them. Spirit is close to as good if not better than strength for a leveling warrior. It the example you posted of 3str vs 3 spirit 3 str is probably less than 1 weapon damage maybe 1 weapon damage. That's nothing. 3 spirit is 2.4 hps which is not nothing. If you can find the bag room for a full spirit set (unlikely but doable for some pieces) you literally dont need food if you can get some spirit gear then you can use lower level cheaper food which saves you a bunch of money.

Spirit Regen for warriors is very good.

3 str is actually 6 AP and it's almost 0,5 DPS.

But anyways, say you are a tauren warrior with a shitty one-hander (14-28 damage, 7,8 DPS and 2,7 speed) and a shield in your 20s, you have about:
60 str = 120 AP (+40 for being level 20, +35 from battle shout) = 195 AP. Which brings us to: 51,6 min damage - 65,6 max damage and 21,7 DPS.
65 stam = about 650 health?
30 spirit = 30 health per 2 seconds out of combat (30*1,33 +23 = 62,9 while eating food)
Time to recover 30% health after killing a mob: 214,5 health will regen over 7,1 out of combat, 5,3 sitting, 3,4 while eating

now when picking a new statstick with either +3str or +3spirit you'll have next upgrades:
+3 str =52,8 min - 66,8 max 22,1 DPS
+3 spirit = 32,4 ooc; 43,1 sitting; 66,1 while eating.
So implying you lose 30% health per mob, you'll have to regen 214,5 health, it'll take 6,6 out of combat, 4,9 sitting or 3,2 eating.

So there is that, difference is minuscule 2,4 health per tick (2 seconds) is really nothing, but keep in mind that spirit ooc health regen grows linearly and gets less effective the more of spirit you stack (due to health regen formula being "spirit*0,8+const") the higher level you are (because it can't keep up with HP growth), and all it achieves - reduced downtime between mobs, it doesn't provide enough of a bonus to trump eating (or bandaging) completely (time it takes to regen by simply standing/running around is twice as long as eating food of appropriate level), but reduces your DPS (which makes you spend more time IN combat, taking damage and not regening health). While your str gain also affects AP linearly (AP=str*2+(level*3-20)), so stacking more of it doesn't slow down at any point and DPS is always useful for leveling, as it reduces amount of time you spend in combat (you lose less HP and get XP faster).

I have excel spreadsheet open right now but can't be bothered uploading screenshots, if you wish to see comparison (how it affects H regen and AP) between "spirit gear set" and... regular gear. Specify level, race, and your definition of "spirit gear set" and i'll do it in free time

[Tantaburs]

It makes you more vulnerable and loses you basically all the time you would have saved if you die ONCE ever because of it, and it makes you more likely to die because I'm not rolling troll. I also didn't say it was pointless. I just said it was basically always better to take a stat that lets you survive fights, you'll notice. A heavy silk bandage is 80/s and you can definitely have those at 42. In abundance if you've been grinding humanoids, which I always did. I don't know how long I spent grinding the ogres in Arathi. Nevermind the fact you could just carry and switch to the spirit gear if you really want to min max.(side question: where are you getting the numbers? I'm working off memory, which is that of spirit doing almost nothing for health regen. I can't find any data that's applicable to Classic. Just private server stuff, which are shown to be wrong in many places, and stuff from the demo, which was also off in many places(like 200% spell crits and WotLK regen changes.)

The fastest thing, though, for a warrior was just killing lower level mobs. You get so much better xp/time that way.

Spirit Regen numbers are here

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Health_regeneration

And can be verified on the Classic Beta and Stress Tests.

3 str is actually 6 AP and it's almost 0,5 DPS.

But anyways, say you are a tauren warrior with a shitty one-hander (14-28 damage, 7,8 DPS and 2,7 speed) and a shield in your 20s, you have about:
60 str = 120 AP (+40 for being level 20, +35 from battle shout) = 195 AP. Which brings us to: 51,6 min damage - 65,6 max damage and 21,7 DPS.
65 stam = about 650 health?
30 spirit = 30 health per 2 seconds out of combat (30*1,33 +23 = 62,9 while eating food)
Time to recover 30% health after killing a mob: 214,5 health will regen over 7,1 out of combat, 5,3 sitting, 3,4 while eating

now when picking a new statstick with either +3str or +3spirit you'll have next upgrades:
+3 str =52,8 min - 66,8 max 22,1 DPS
+3 spirit = 32,4 ooc; 43,1 sitting; 66,1 while eating.
So implying you lose 30% health per mob, you'll have to regen 214,5 health, it'll take 6,6 out of combat, 4,9 sitting or 3,2 eating.

So there is that, difference is minuscule 2,4 health per tick (2 seconds) is really nothing, but keep in mind that spirit ooc health regen grows linearly and gets less effective the more of spirit you stack (due to health regen formula being "spirit*0,8+const") the higher level you are (because it can't keep up with HP growth), and all it achieves - reduced downtime between mobs, it doesn't provide enough of a bonus to trump eating (or bandaging) completely (time it takes to regen by simply standing/running around is twice as long as eating food of appropriate level), but reduces your DPS (which makes you spend more time IN combat, taking damage and not regening health). While your str gain also affects AP linearly (AP=str*2+(level*3-20)), so stacking more of it doesn't slow down at any point and DPS is always useful for leveling, as it reduces amount of time you spend in combat (you lose less HP and get XP faster).

I have excel spreadsheet open right now but can't be bothered uploading screenshots, if you wish to see comparison (how it affects H regen and AP) between "spirit gear set" and... regular gear. Specify level, race, and your definition of "spirit gear set" and i'll do it in free time

So if we assume that you have 10 seconds of downtime per regen cycle (which is probably low) 2.4 hp regen will gain you 24 hp per regen cycle. 3 stam will give you 30hp (31.5 for tauren) per regen cycle. 3 strength which gives you 1 extra weapon damage saves you what maybe one swing if you are lucky.

This doesn't take into account that higher spirit levels means you can purchase cheaper food and still regen to full which means you are far more likely to afford your mount at 40 which is the largest time saver in leveling.

There is a reason basically every warrior leveling guide will tell you that spirit is one of the best leveling stats for a warrior. And that is using private server data which was largely undervaluing spirit for warriors using the Post BC rate of .5/spirit or lower instead of .8 to the point that the high effect of spirit on the beta was reported as a bug many times.

[Shaetha]

Spirit Regen numbers are here

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Health_regeneration

And can be verified on the Classic Beta and Stress Tests.




So if we assume that you have 10 seconds of downtime per regen cycle (which is probably low) 2.4 hp regen will gain you 24 hp per regen cycle. 3 stam will give you 30hp (31.5 for tauren) per regen cycle. 3 strength which gives you 1 extra weapon damage saves you what maybe one swing if you are lucky.

This doesn't take into account that higher spirit levels means you can purchase cheaper food and still regen to full which means you are far more likely to afford your mount at 40 which is the largest time saver in leveling.

There is a reason basically every warrior leveling guide will tell you that spirit is one of the best leveling stats for a warrior. And that is using private server data which was largely undervaluing spirit for warriors using the Post BC rate of .5/spirit or lower instead of .8 to the point that the high effect of spirit on the beta was reported as a bug many times.

I didn't trust that because it has the unverified data tag, but did you actually read the second thing you quoted? It is arguing the opposite of the point you're trying to make. Carry spirit gear for ooc if you want to be cheap(but not really because the gear costs money)because the benefit is not nothing, but don't wear it in combat, and for god's sake don't steal it from a mana class.

[Tantaburs]

I didn't trust that because it has the unverified data tag, but did you actually read the second thing you quoted? It is arguing the opposite of the point you're trying to make. Carry spirit gear for ooc if you want to be cheap(but not really because the gear costs money)because the benefit is not nothing, but don't wear it in combat, and for god's sake don't steal it from a mana class.

I did read it I know it argues the opposite of what i'm saying I wanted to respond to both of you but didn't want to make two posts. You can not trust it if you want but those numbers are verifiable on the Classic Beta which i would assume you would trust since you know its the game.

carrying Spirit gear in bags to swap to for OOC regen takes up bag space which means you either a) have to go bak to town more often to sell which slows down your leveling speed or B) limits the amount of items you can vendor which means you wont have a mount at 40 which also slows down leveling speed.

[Mirain1]

It also means fights taking longer, which is more relevant than waiting a few seconds (of >1min) less until you're full again.
It means fleeing mobs having more of a chance to add, it means your health maybe not being high enough to survive the mob. Stamina was a far more useful levelling stat than Spirit.

But when given the choice, you picked the item with more Str or Agi or Int.

Well the leveling times have been tested with str vs spirit. Spirit really isn't far off.

[Kithelle]

??? Mate if you had more spirit for example it means less downtime, doesn't matter how you look at it.

Except it isn't less downtime, like I said....you don't sit around twiddling your fingers waiting to naturally regen...you eat something.

It's a worthless stat on any spec that did not have the 30% regen while in combat, which was almost no one but healers.

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Well the leveling times have been tested with str vs spirit. Spirit really isn't far off.

If you're a cheap bastard and don't want to waste money on food....but who is that cheap? I guess you are since you seem to think it's worth it.

[anon5123]

If you are showing up to a raid with a non maxed weapon skill then you dont deserve to be there.

That's some ridiculous min-max there, m8.

OOC regeneration is also pointless for raiding

Someone hasn't raided naxx, I see.

Stop responding to legitimate criticisms of your idea with ad hominem attacks.

Please look up what "ad hominem" means before you insult someone with it, kthx

[Mirain1]

Except it isn't less downtime, like I said....you don't sit around twiddling your fingers waiting to naturally regen...you eat something.

It's a worthless stat on any spec that did not have the 30% regen while in combat, which was almost no one but healers.

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If you're a cheap bastard and don't want to waste money on food....but who is that cheap? I guess you are since you seem to think it's worth it.

Mate, it's been tested before and spirit is definitely not a bad stat when leveling. No you obviously don't wait around for your HP to regen, but your HP will be higher by the time you reach your next mob.

[Nathanyel]

Mate, it's been tested before and spirit is definitely not a bad stat when leveling.

Sure, but "not bad" doesn't mean "pick this over offensive stats".

[schwank05]

Itemization was one of the biggest downfalls of Vanilla, there’s a reason it was changed for TBC and never looked back on.

I still think TBC did it better than Retail, I loved how Prot Pally's had to use Spellpower and how I still rocked a bunch of Cloth pieces on my Resto Druid because it was just better.

[Veggie50]

I guess that's why both TBC and WotLK was a lot more successful than Vanilla, don't get me wrong I love Vanilla and will play the living crap out of it (haven't been invested in live WoW since WoD, and that killed me)... but TBC and WotLK were better games.

Depends by what measure you look at it though... in total subs, tbc and wotlk both win, sure. Wotlk starter the decline in wow though, subs lvled out. Don’t get me wrong, I loved parts of wotlk, but they also went quite heavy on catchup mechanics, which I hated. I think TBC hit the sweet spot on that aspect

[Aggrophobic]

With Tier 1-3 the sets were designed for the main spec of each class: Warriors sets for tanking, Paladins for healing, etc...

I feel they did this perfectly and should bring it back. Where the sets are only designed for the main spec / role of that class.

Now I hear it.. What about the BOOMIES / RETADINS?!?!! THAT ISNT FAIR..

look at how itemization was back in classic. Main specs had the tier set to make them stronger (Their own little Nitch) then offspec had the random gear that dropped off Dungeon/raid bosses. I feel this made the items dropping off bosses be more unique instead of the tier sets transferring its bonuses depending on what spec you are.

This Focus could even go farther into the fact that each tier set is designed to strengthen that classes healing / tanking / dps but make it more focused on what the main raid requires... a little more customization for each raid. Fire res increase in the set bonus etc.. increase dmg to UD... increase stun resist (bosses that stun).. just some random things that make the set unique and powerful to that raid that it drops from and then also over all.

Why? What a garbage idea. There is a reason why every spec has a set or traits now.

[Z a v i u s]

Why? What a garbage idea. There is a reason why every spec has a set or traits now.

the fact that you can swap specs and the tiers would swap with you is yes convenient but makes gathering that gear less impactful.

had me thinking on the subject of the specs and how they could with similar to how they did in classic or make it even better, when they introduce a new set of raids. each one doesn't trump the other but they go hand in hand from patch to patch, so you play the full expansion and not just the patch how it is today. Meaning new xpac drops with 1 big raid and a little raid, that set gear is set up for a certain spec for each class (Gives the Devs more room to be creative instead of coming up with 48+ different tier sets) then when the next patch drops that raid and tier is still important and not just forgotten about like the one in BfA with the lasers and things? what was it called? Uldone? Uldir? whatever it was. But then the tier in the new raid is a combo of spec together or just focused on a totally different one (First raid War tank, Second tier Fury warrior, etc) but make it so that the whole expansion still has replay ability so no huge power lvl jumps

[Aggrophobic]

the fact that you can swap specs and the tiers would swap with you is yes convenient but makes gathering that gear less impactful.

had me thinking on the subject of the specs and how they could with similar to how they did in classic or make it even better, when they introduce a new set of raids. each one doesn't trump the other but they go hand in hand from patch to patch, so you play the full expansion and not just the patch how it is today. Meaning new xpac drops with 1 big raid and a little raid, that set gear is set up for a certain spec for each class (Gives the Devs more room to be creative instead of coming up with 48+ different tier sets) then when the next patch drops that raid and tier is still important and not just forgotten about like the one in BfA with the lasers and things? what was it called? Uldone? Uldir? whatever it was. But then the tier in the new raid is a combo of spec together or just focused on a totally different one (First raid War tank, Second tier Fury warrior, etc) but make it so that the whole expansion still has replay ability so no huge power lvl jumps

Sorry, but I really do not agree with this in any way. The current system might not be awesome in every way but limiting people like you suggest will not make the game better in any way.

Say you do want to play enhancement but it's only really resto that is viable for raiding - You'll never get others to join that raid. Not 40 of them at least. Nope, that is a bad system.

Also, Uldir is a hundred time more mermorable than any of the vanilla raids where 99% of the bosses have either no mechanics or that one ability that is "don't stand in fire". I have a hard time beliving that you played any of the raids in vanilla or in retail to be fair.

[Mirain1]

Sure, but "not bad" doesn't mean "pick this over offensive stats".

No of course, but that wasn't my point to begin with. Someone came with the nonsense of "Spirit sucks for anyone but healers".

[Akka]

Then why didn't Plate have Str and Agi, why didn't Leather&Mail also have Str?

It did, so I don't get your argument.

[Revamp Man]

No it wasnt. It makes sense that items are not perfectly suited to your spec and class. Inperfections makes world more real and imerssive. It is absolute nonsense that every loot drop would have pefect stats for everyone.

Can you tell me why warrior gear had spirit on it for a bit

[Akka]

uh, stable subscriber numbers were (by far) the largest during WotLK?

That's a pretty bad argument "it stopped growing, but it was higher than when it was growing". That's supposed to be good ?

It has the highest rated raids

Nope. Ulduar was highly rated, but the others went from "average" (ICC) to "pile of shit" (ToC) and "rehashed" (Naxx)..

and 5 man dungeons

Wat ? Dungeons in WotLK were shit due to being short AoE facerolling bores.

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Weapon skillups are absolutely worthless in raiding.

Are you daft ? Weapon skill is THE SINGLE MOST POWERFUL STAT in raiding in Vanilla.

Except it isn't less downtime, like I said....you don't sit around twiddling your fingers waiting to naturally regen...you eat something.

Depending on your class, you can actually rely on spirit to drastically reduces downtime that can allow you to skip eating most of the time.

Guys, stop trying to argue about how Vanilla was played when you have no Vanilla experience, thanks.