Is Western society becoming more coddled and infantilized?

[Endus]

This is really just a weak straw man. There's been plenty of discussing the individual points and their merits and how society is changing (different parenting styles, media fearmongering), what effects those changes will have (higher levels of anxiety, depression, suicide in young girls especially) you've basically just come in to shitpost because you can't see the trees for the forest. Saying "things have always changed" is a level of abstraction that is just ignorant and intellectually incurious.

Haven't seen any direct causal connection proposed. Checking suicide rate data, I'm not seeing a huge bump when looked at in terms of rate per capita, over a long enough time frame 30+ years). If anything, there was a record-setting low point in suicide rates in the '90s in the Western world.

I'm not accepting base correlation as an explanation for anything.

The problem with prolonging adolescents is that it may not be all that healthy for individuals who are biologically compelled to seek independence or sexual comradery to not take those steps required to have those things. It's also not good to block people from experiencing all negative outcomes of their actions or from taking risks, it's pretty crucial for healthy development against problems that will arise in the future.

If they were "biologically compelled", then they'd take those steps regardless. Plus, such "compulsions" differ by individual.

As for the second, you're still presuming your conclusion as part of your argument. Plus, the idea that we can mitigate harm is not a negative, just because you'd prefer to see the harm done.

[Techno-Druid]

Haven't seen any direct causal connection proposed. Checking suicide rate data, I'm not seeing a huge bump when looked at in terms of rate per capita, over a long enough time frame 30+ years). If anything, there was a record-setting low point in suicide rates in the '90s in the Western world.

I'm not accepting base correlation as an explanation for anything.



If they were "biologically compelled", then they'd take those steps regardless. Plus, such "compulsions" differ by individual.

That's sort of the point, they have the same biological imperatives, but aren't going through the necessary changes to properly fulfill those imperatives. Say what you will about Jordan Peterson's rhetoric, but there's a reason why he's so popular with the young adult male demographic. He provides basic advice for some people that helps to steer them into the direction of a more fulfilling life.

As for the second, you're still presuming your conclusion as part of your argument. Plus, the idea that we can mitigate harm is not a negative, just because you'd prefer to see the harm done.

It's pretty objectively beneficial, at least if we're judging on society's ability to make emotionally well-adjusted adults. People need to face moderate/normal levels of stress in certain situations at an early age so they can cope with it better in the future. It's essentially the same principle that guides your immune system. Sometimes it needs to be challenged so that it can strengthen itself.

[Doctor Amadeus]

I wonder if it's just that we haven't had a huge struggle like WWII or the Great Depression. Such things would mature you quickly.

Like Don Corleone said: BE A MAN!

HAHAHAHA NO!

Most of that shit was fable and made up, DON'T get me wrong they really did struggle, but honestly each generation has dealt with it's own struggles, going to war to kill other people in a battlefield isn't the only way people fight, struggle or died.

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That's sort of the point, they have the same biological imperatives, but aren't going through the necessary changes to properly fulfill those imperatives. Say what you will about Jordan Peterson's rhetoric, but there's a reason why he's so popular with the young adult male demographic. He provides basic advice for some people that helps to steer them into the direction of a more fulfilling life.


It's pretty objectively beneficial, at least if we're judging on society's ability to make emotionally well-adjusted adults. People need to face moderate/normal levels of stress in certain situations at an early age so they can cope with it better in the future. It's essentially the same principle that guides your immune system. Sometimes it needs to be challenged so that it can strengthen itself.

Jordan Peterson is popular for the same reason Kim Kardashian is, because stupid people want to believe whatever the fuck they want to comfort them in whatever pre made up ideas they already have.

Which isn't unique, but Jordan Peterson isn't saying anything ground breaking, the dude is a dishonest academic hack, who basically sold out and makes up stupid shit to sell books.

There is not such thing as properly fulfilling imperatives. That is just a construct or outline set up as tradition, the only thing is each generation explicitly doesn't follow that tradition.

Things always change, and it isn't the WILL of Nature, or at least not any more than any other faith.


I hate using the Matrix outline but humans being the virus vs the cure yaddah yaddah whatever edgy monologue yeah that is more realistic if we are going to go with objective truth of fact.

However facts or truth without context is meaningless, kind of like nature vs nurture. Guess what they are the same thing.


In some ways humanity is very advanced and developed however in terms of any and every other life we know maybe not. It just depends on what value is placed on whatever life.

But whatever value that becomes it't not objective.

[Michh]

I married my wife 10 years younger than me, I was 35 at the time and accepted that I was going to have a child in my late 30s. I’m 49 now with a 12 y/o boy. When he was about 8 he bought himself a trampoline with his Xmas money. It came with nerf pads and a net that completely surrounded it to prevent him from falling off. I’m being as honest as I can here, I never once thought about using the pads or net and my son never questioned it.

Couple years before that he was 6 and I carried him skating. I was a very big roller skater in my youth, worked at the rink to get free entry and basically spent Friday night and all day sat for many years. When we entered the place for the first time they had kids using these homemade walker type things with wheels on them, built from 1.5” pvc pipe - they were neat little things. My son started skating without one and of course he was falling some as I taught him the basics of standing in place and how to make yourself go. He kept looking at kids with those walkers and I eventually told him that wasn’t happening. He didn’t complain and a few months later he was learning to skate backwards and could go foreword very well. Imo you learn much faster when you can fall. These kids are so young it doesn’t hurt them in the slightest. I imagine the kids that went a few times and used the walkers never learned how to skate. Of course this isn’t a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

Another instance; at the bowling alley they now have rails you can ask for that keep the ball from going in the gutter. Kids with this up don’t even try to roll it straight, and a strange thing happens when you lower the rails, they actually start paying attention, concentrating and trying to roll the ball straight. Prolly a stupid analogy, but it’s something I’ve noticed a few times at bday parties. Parents willfully put the rails up and make no attempt at teaching their kids how to actually bowl, while watching them fail over and over.

Back to the trampoline; shortly after he got it of course a couple of his friends came over. They were all jumping and having fun. Their mom walked over to get them and saw them jumping without all the safety stuff and told them to never come back. I didn’t know this, Tyler told me when he came in. I asked why, he said she said it was too dangerous. This made me start paying attention to a few things. Most people who have kids Tyler’s age are my wife’s age and look at things much differently than I do. She later told my wife if I’d put the stuff on they could come back, the wife told her I let the garbage pick it up.

I never bought Tyler a helmet or pads to ride his bike. He started riding without TWs at 4, and started riding a motorcycle the next year. Of course for that he had everything he needed. Once I started paying attention I started really noticing these differences. I set up a cinder block in the road with a board on it for a ramp. Showed Tyler a few things and he was off and jumping. Other parents told their kids not to try it.

I question whether 10-12 years gap in age made that much difference and I’m not sure if it’s the way we were raised, or the difference in times now. With helicopter parenting and out of control protectivity of today, versus in the 70s when I was the same age. Most of these parents grew up in the 80s and I don’t remember a big change from the 70s to the 80s, or the 90s for that fact.

With this wall of text I’m not saying that protecting your kids is bad, not at all. I worry deeply about my son and when he’s out of my sight over at someone’s house I do worry quite a bit. But protecting them from failing at basic things seems like too much. I do want him to learn how to deal with and work out situations on his own, I think that’s very important. As well as the decisions he makes will always have consequences, some good and some bad. Knowing how to deal with both is critical in life. Tyler is an outside kid, though he likes some video gaming too. He’s got a few friends that can come outside and play, and some that barely get to come outside. I don’t agree with that. Keeping your kids bottled up inside for fear of something bad happening to them is a very poor decision. You don’t have to let them roam the neighbor hood unsupervised of course, but they play in the culdesac on our end of the street.

There’s no doubt things are vastly different now than they were 20 years ago, and not even in the same universe as it was when I grew up. Good or bad, better or worse? Eh, who knows. I’m often around parents that coddle their kids so much it’s embarrassing when they’re out in public and the kid acts like a spoiled brat. Have to get their way or throw a tandrum until they do. Tyler would never act like that and never has. I have no idea if the way I’ve raised him has helped with that, or it’s more in his genetics. It’s just not his way to act spoiled when he doesn’t get his way.

Good lord jeevus that’s a wall of text. Not sure if I’ve added anything here. Most is anecdotal at best.

[Endus]

That's sort of the point, they have the same biological imperatives, but aren't going through the necessary changes to properly fulfill those imperatives.

1> "Biological imperatives" only matter insofar as they contribute to passing along genetics. If they lead to propagation, they're adaptive. If not, maladaptive. As long as people are still having kids, it doesn't matter if they take till their late 20s to "grow up".

2> "Biological imperatives" can be maladaptive. Just because they exist doesn't mean they should be catered to. You have a biological imperative to acquire things; that's why toddlers pretty much all go through a "mine!" phase. We drum that out of them, because it's maladaptive.

These aren't things that have to be "fulfilled". They're yearnings. Some are more often positive, some less so. That's it. We expect civilized people to rise above that shit.

Say what you will about Jordan Peterson's rhetoric, but there's a reason why he's so popular with the young adult male demographic. He provides basic advice for some people that helps to steer them into the direction of a more fulfilling life.

It's the same reason that televangelists are popular. Why Hitler was popular. Why any demagogue is popular.

There's always a demand for people who act smarter than you, tell you everything's not your fault, and give you reductively simplistic advice that lets you shut off your own brain and just coast.

[Halicia]

It's the same reason that televangelists are popular. Why Hitler was popular. Why any demagogue is popular.

There's always a demand for people who act smarter than you, tell you everything's not your fault, and give you reductively simplistic advice that lets you shut off your own brain and just coast.

"If you give me power, I will solve your problems for you and make your life better."

At its peak, 'they' even identify or create their rivals as the "problem" that needs solving.

[Mormolyce]

Clickbait title, but the article is fairly interesting. The "teen phase" is as old as the 20th Century so this is not a new phenomenon.

More likely, trends of this kind are caused by increasing population density - look at Japan. We've been heading into Hikikomori territory for a few decades now.

[White Goodman1]

Yes, and then you just watch some videos on internet to disctract you from this shit that is going on.