Class identity for Druid, already fine?

[FAILoZOFF]

For me Druid is or was about switching forms to fit your needs. Not having one form for every spec that has no downsides besides being a neutered version of other classes *cough* feral *cough*

This again. I feel the same. There are no druids in WoW anymore. Just cat form spec, bear form spec, moonkin spec and no form spec XD
So again: what identity?

[Wangming]

This again. I feel the same. There are no druids in WoW anymore. Just cat form spec, bear form spec, moonkin spec and no form spec XD
So again: what identity?

It's the shared resource that only druids have. Oh wait, that doesn't exist. The roll they play in parties. Oh wait that's different for each spec. Being exclusive to Night Elves and Tauren. Oh wait, not true either. You don't even need to follow Cenarius. You can be a dinomancer, a Harvest Witch or practice Drust druidism. Well you channel the powers of nature....which is also used by Shamans(Shamen?).

But you swith into a form that doesn't show your gear.....like shadow priests or demon hunters.

I've got nothing. Sorry. Druid has nothing.

[huth]

For me Druid is or was about switching forms to fit your needs. Not having one form for every spec that has no downsides besides being a neutered version of other classes *cough* feral *cough*

Which would just doom us to being avoided everywhere. Master of none type characters only make sense when you have a limited set that you cannot easily change and has to go up against varying challenges. Otherwise, you're better off picking fitting specialists.

[FAILoZOFF]

this type of mentality is reason wow class design is such a trash ex di

[Sylar Hao]

The class has completely lost the two core aspects of it: hybridity and shapeshifting. We spend 99,99% of the time in our spec's form and hardly ever shapeshift for any other reason. That's sad.

I'm more than willing to pay the so called hybrid tax to get all four affinity talents baseline for the four specs and then build each spec around that. I miss being the dps guy who saves wipes by casting tranquility, rebirthing dead allies, going to tank that pack of adds or even the main boss for a while, innervating the starving healer... All of that while also putting a reasonably aceptable dps with my cat form.

That true hybrid I fell in love with when I created my very first character that's still my main, that made me feel super useful, the guy who helps everyone in every situation even if I focused on dps'ing. Too bad that hybrid class has been gutted every single expansion. Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying feral now more than ever (I will never miss you baseline Savage Roar), but I do miss being so versatile and survivor as we used to. Right now all that's left is an affinity talent I must choose that doesn't help that much even in the chosen affinity role.

Also, bring back Symbiosis!

[Wangming]

Which would just doom us to being avoided everywhere. Master of none type characters only make sense when you have a limited set that you cannot easily change and has to go up against varying challenges. Otherwise, you're better off picking fitting specialists.

How about every spec having multiple forms with various weaknesses? Like a caster form for better damage, one for better mana regen, one with more survivability...etc

In this case we would have a reason to change forms and not just get stuck with a worse version of other specs.

[huth]

I'm more than willing to pay the so called hybrid tax [...] All of that while also putting a reasonably aceptable dps with my cat form.

So you aren't actually willing to pay the hybrid tax after all? Because that's the price you and your group would have to pay for that.

How about every spec having multiple forms with various weaknesses? Like a caster form for better damage, one for better mana regen, one with more survivability...etc

In this case we would have a reason to change forms and not just get stuck with a worse version of other specs.

That doesn't solve anything, it just puts a new coat of paint on the issue. You'd still spend the majority of time in whatever form is best suited to your primary role in the group, and put effort into maximising that time.

[Wangming]

So you aren't actually willing to pay the hybrid tax after all? Because that's the price you and your group would have to pay for that.


That doesn't solve anything, it just puts a new coat of paint on the issue. You'd still spend the majority of time in whatever form is best suited to your primary role in the group, and put effort into maximising that time.

Then maybe dungeon and encounter design can reflect this. Different bosses or traps tha require different party setups. What worked for D.eadmines might not work for Shadowfang Keep. For example as a healer you could bump into a boss that hits for large ammounts of damage. that needs to be healed quickly. A different one has sustained damage that isn't as big in one chunk, but needs you to heal constantly and it burns your mana reserve. Two forms for that. See? It is simple. You just have to look at what makes a game interesting. Instead of what makes it easy.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Class identity is a dirty word.

Spec identity is where it's at, yo!
I wish I could say /s, but the class design is where it is.

I'm hoping for 9.0, but knowing them and their 180 turns, it might be another disaster in a fresh coat of paint.

[huth]

Then maybe dungeon and encounter design can reflect this. Different bosses or traps tha require different party setups. What worked for D.eadmines might not work for Shadowfang Keep. For example as a healer you could bump into a boss that hits for large ammounts of damage. that needs to be healed quickly. A different one has sustained damage that isn't as big in one chunk, but needs you to heal constantly and it burns your mana reserve. Two forms for that. See? It is simple. You just have to look at what makes a game interesting. Instead of what makes it easy.

And if you're stuck with a healer that can't cope with both, the encounter becomes undoable, preventing you from progressing through no fault of your own.

You need to have a broader look at the design requirements of the game. Hybrids are only useful if your group setup is essentially locked in and the challenges vary, but that's not something that would work in a game like WoW.

[Fistfighter]

(P.S. Treeform should be made a baseline form like owl, bear and cat to enchance healing tech for resto. Give it
a new model while you're at it.) (writer's own agenda)

It totally should.
I absolutely don't understand why they ever removed it. Feral, Guardian and Balance have these cool forms, and poor Resto druids are stuck in their boring race form.

Of course they should also add a glyph to let you heal without tree form, like the glyph that let's you play Balance without your Moonkin form, so people could costumise their druid character and enjoy both of the variants.

I would also love a glyph that let's you play Guardian and Feral in your humanoid form, something like the old Claws of Shivarla in WoD, or just your base model with some claws and fur added, like Druids of the Claw have before the transformation. But I don't believe this is in the druid fantasy blizzard wants.

[jellmoo]

Then maybe dungeon and encounter design can reflect this. Different bosses or traps tha require different party setups. What worked for D.eadmines might not work for Shadowfang Keep. For example as a healer you could bump into a boss that hits for large ammounts of damage. that needs to be healed quickly. A different one has sustained damage that isn't as big in one chunk, but needs you to heal constantly and it burns your mana reserve. Two forms for that. See? It is simple. You just have to look at what makes a game interesting. Instead of what makes it easy.

The problem with that is that right now you just zerg through a Dungeon as quiclly as possible. Everything is a pure DPS race with little nuance. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a cool idea to have different setups and strategies, but it would be a massive change to how Dungeons function and could turn off the player base.

You run the risk of making the Druid either more or less required to succeed, or the hybrid tax makes them the default worst choice. I don't think it's simple at all as there would be a very fine line.

[Wangming]

And if you're stuck with a healer that can't cope with both, the encounter becomes undoable, preventing you from progressing through no fault of your own.

Again, the encounter won't require both. But different dungeons would require different forms. Or maybe to simplify things each spec could have a form better suited for solo play and one better suited for dungeons. There has to be a way to preserve the original class fantasy of druids without fucking over the game.

- - - Updated - - -

You run the risk of making the Druid either more or less required to succeed, or the hybrid tax makes them the default worst choice.

A fair point. But it's not like the classes don't need a redesign anyway. Let's do a proper overhaul. As for the risk of alienating players.. BfA is already doing it. I think risks can be taken at this point.

[jellmoo]

fair point. But it's not like the classes don't need a redesign anyway. Let's do a proper overhaul. As for the risk of alienating players.. BfA is already doing it. I think risks can be taken at this point.

I think we also have to be aware of what high end group content used to be like for a Druid back in the day. We don't want to go back to "Listen. Get out of Cat Form. You're here to give us MotW, cast some heals and Innervate when we tell you to. Stop pretending you matter."

I love the idea of a Druid jumping from form to form to fill in as needed. But the game has moved so far from that dynamic at this point that it raises a ton of questions that would need to be worked through:

[Wangming]

I think we also have to be aware of what high end group content used to be like for a Druid back in the day. We don't want to go back to "Listen. Get out of Cat Form. You're here to give us MotW, cast some heals and Innervate when we tell you to. Stop pretending you matter."

I love the idea of a Druid jumping from form to form to fill in as needed. But the game has moved so far from that dynamic at this point that it raises a ton of questions that would need to be worked through:

Okay. The old class fantasy needs to go away. But what of the new one? The current one can hardly be called a class fantasy. We have four totally unrelated specs that are simply just lamer versions of others.

[jellmoo]

Okay. The old class fantasy needs to go away. But what of the new one? The current one can hardly be called a class fantasy. We have four totally unrelated specs that are simply just lamer versions of others.

Well, across the board the class fantasy for all classes is spec over class. You're Feral, not a Druid. You're Demonology, not a Warlock. I think that the devs have realized they went too far in this regard, but it is a matter to see how they choose to swing it back.

My personal take is that the current Talent system is the main culprit. There's very little in the way of real customization. Couple that with the spec being the totality of what you are and you have characters that get pigeonholed into "Single target or AOE" rather than having real fluidity.

The Druid isn't really unique in this regard, but they seem more obvious because of the shape shifting mechanic. The thing is that it's a rather large change as it will have to hit all classes and specs, not just Druids. It raises questions like:

- Do we revisit the hybrid tax?
- Does CC become a valid role again?
- How do we let Hybrid classes tackle multiple roles?

[huth]

Again, the encounter won't require both. But different dungeons would require different forms. Or maybe to simplify things each spec could have a form better suited for solo play and one better suited for dungeons. There has to be a way to preserve the original class fantasy of druids without fucking over the game.

It has to require both to make hybrids a viable option. If it's different encounters, you can just swap specialists and be better off.

[Wangming]

Well, across the board the class fantasy for all classes is spec over class. You're Feral, not a Druid. You're Demonology, not a Warlock. I think that the devs have realized they went too far in this regard, but it is a matter to see how they choose to swing it back.

But I'm not Feral. I'm a shitty Rogue who can't see his gear.

[Pheraz]

I really miss to double shift out of snares/roots :

I think it's okay with what they did with affinities though.

I also really miss to stance dance on my arms warrior :/

[jellmoo]

But I'm not Feral. I'm a shitty Rogue who can't see his gear.

Honestly, one thing that I think would go a long way is if all Druids had the Kul Tiran and Zandalari treatment. Their forms should be different and actually representative of their culture and surrounding. And within that sphere extra customization is really sorely needed. The fact that it took to Legion to have any is a shame, and the fact that it's still so limited makes little sense.

The shitty Rogue part is kinda unique right now though. As Feral... well... Sorry, this isn't your expansion.