Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[mvaliz]

Between aforementioned attacks and this type of gaslighting it's small wonder that people are turned off by the Bernie campaign.

What aforementioned attacks? I'm seriously asking here, did I miss something recently?... this isn't meant to be any "gaslighting". This is me FFS! =/

[beanman12345]

Hah, gawds I remember that... also remember when he claimed he was going to finance his own campaign fund? LOOOOOOL! >_<



I'd like to see this as well, as Pritzker here in Chicago has been opening my eyes well. He's passing the Minimum wage law, legalized Weed, and is so far pushing all the right policies he promised so far - and I was worried he was just going to turn into another Dumbass Dump.

I honestly don't know much about Bloomburg other than his own city hates him with a passion for some reason I haven't bothered to look up yet. One thing I'd ask in regards to Bloomberg is the same thing I say with Yang: "What Bloomberg talks about economically sounds great... but can that guy engage with Kim Jong-Un in demilitarization talks?"

Yang and Bloomberg being Billionaires doesn't qualify them to be peace-negotiators with foreign dignitaries, and nothing in their resumes suggest that as well. Their resumes simply suggest they're good at acquiring wealth and building a business.

Agreed on Pritzker. He's has been great so far.

[cubby]

Does there need to be, especially if you consider Trump's behavior a symptom of the American class structure and not solely a function of him being a twat? As evidenced by the main criticism of establishment elites have against him - that he's rude.

Plutocracy dressed up in blue clothing is still plutocracy. America's democracy has failed hard enough without people buying their way into office.

No, it's not. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, and Elon Musk all called to say hi.

Come back to me with real criticisms of his behavior, his policies, he tenure in office - anything but "I hate billionaires". I get you hate them, that's fine, but I want to know why you don't like this guy in particular for public office. If you're entire argument is "because he's a billionaire" then please say that as well.

[matt4pack]

Between aforementioned attacks and this type of gaslighting it's small wonder that people are turned off by the Bernie campaign.

Yet looking at this thread the ones spreading the most hate are the anti-bernie people like yourself.

[JohnBrown1917]

No, it's not. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, and Elon Musk all called to say hi.

Come back to me with real criticisms of his behavior, his policies, he tenure in office - anything but "I hate billionaires". I get you hate them, that's fine, but I want to know why you don't like this guy in particular for public office. If you're entire argument is "because he's a billionaire" then please say that as well.

Gates and Musk are horrible people, you should think a bit longer about your examples lol.

Billionare bootlicking is not that hard.

[Elegiac]

No, it's not. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, and Elon Musk all called to say hi.

Come back to me with real criticisms of his behavior, his policies, he tenure in office - anything but "I hate billionaires". I get you hate them, that's fine, but I want to know why you don't like this guy in particular for public office. If you're entire argument is "because he's a billionaire" then please say that as well.

*turns on megaphone* Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, and Elon Musk can all also eat shit and die because existing as a billionaire is unethical in of itself, as I literally just said.

I don't think billionaires should be in office and I won't endorse the blatant form of vote buying that Bloomberg is engaging in.

Like I said, "do anything to win" is Republican speak.

[cubby]

Oh I see. That was my fault, I thought your post was meant for Elegiac, not me. My goal was to get people to say some positive things about various candidates as compared to always tearing each other down.

I am not vehemently against him. Right now, he is close to a blank slate to me. I share the distrust of him due to him being a billionaire.

But right now I am tired of looking for things to dislike about various candidates. Unfortunately, I did a poor job of trying to elicit something positive. I am sorry for my communication mess up.

Ah, ok - that does make a lot more sense. And no worries, been there, done that, got the t-shirt myself.

I could not agree more with you about looking for the positives. Obviously I'm stuck in a rut re Bloomberg because he's pretty much a blank slate to me as well. I don't even know much about his time as Mayor of New York.

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*turns on megaphone* Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, and Elon Musk can all also eat shit and die because existing as a billionaire is unethical in of itself, as I literally just said.

I don't think billionaires should be in office and I won't endorse the blatant form of vote buying that Bloomberg is engaging in.

Like I said, "do anything to win" is Republican speak.

Ok, gotcha. Thanks for clarifying your position on the candidate's merits. I do love that you're grouping people into a category based on one condition and assuming almost vile attributes based on that one condition, despite objective evidence to the contrary.

If Bloomberg got the Democratic nomination, would you vote for him in the general election? Or would you let Trump win?

[beanman12345]

Ah, ok - that does make a lot more sense. And no worries, been there, done that, got the t-shirt myself.

I could not agree more with you about looking for the positives. Obviously I'm stuck in a rut re Bloomberg because he's pretty much a blank slate to me as well. I don't even know much about his time as Mayor of New York.

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Ok, gotcha. Thanks for clarifying your position on the candidate's merits. I do love that you're grouping people into a category based on one condition and assuming almost vile attributes based on that one condition, despite objective evidence to the contrary.

If Bloomberg got the Democratic nomination, would you vote for him in the general election? Or would you let Trump win?

All i know about him is the stop and frisk bullshit he implimented. but he was re-elected twice so they can't hate him too much in NYC.

[Telogrus]

- He has no major legislative achievements to his name relative to his tenure in office.
- He clearly doesn't vet people in his inner circle considering their behavior and a lot of suspect opinions floating around.
- He reduces every issue to a function of economics while ignoring that animus is a thing.
- He uses the DNC like a whore when it's convenient despite apparently being the 'purity candidate'.
- He clearly has difficulty admitting fault.

You're welcome.

Even if this is true, I wouldn’t care since getting M4A as just a Senator through Congress would be nearly impossible when even the Democrats are bought out by the health insurance industries. Obama was a first term Senator when he ran and no one cared that he didn’t have any major legislation to his name. Disingenuous, bad faith argument that no voters would actually care about.

Yeah he really needs to do a better job at vetting people so that way they won’t accuse corrupt Joe Biden of being corrupt.

Because a lot of social/cultural issues are just symptoms of economic issues? How dare Bernie try to point out the causes of social/cultural issues instead of just going full SJW.

If he ran as an independent, you guys would hate him even more and accuse him of being a spoiler. No one actually cares that he wasn’t registered as a Democrat. We care about his ideas. Stop it with this partisanship / identity politics.

You mean the guy who apologized because one of his supporters told the truth about Joe Biden?

[cubby]

I'd like to see this as well, as Pritzker here in Chicago has been opening my eyes well. He's passing the Minimum wage law, legalized Weed, and is so far pushing all the right policies he promised so far - and I was worried he was just going to turn into another Dumbass Dump.

I honestly don't know much about Bloomburg other than his own city hates him with a passion for some reason I haven't bothered to look up yet. One thing I'd ask in regards to Bloomberg is the same thing I say with Yang: "What Bloomberg talks about economically sounds great... but can that guy engage with Kim Jong-Un in demilitarization talks?"

Yang and Bloomberg being Billionaires doesn't qualify them to be peace-negotiators with foreign dignitaries, and nothing in their resumes suggest that as well. Their resumes simply suggest they're good at acquiring wealth and building a business.

I think the real question is not if he can do it, but whether he would surround himself with smart people who could give him good advice, and then will he take that good advice. To me that's what a leader is all about.

[mvaliz]

Like I said, "do anything to win" is Republican speak.

Well, more of a "Spend all my money to win"... Bloomberg isn't turning to the BS Smear campaigns like Dump did. The Tratorpublicans do anything to win, and that doesn't always involve spending money.

The people he sited aren't bad people though. I think both you and he agree on the Billionare part in general, but are you seriously telling me if you developed an idea that sprung into a multi-Billion-dollar company, you'd see yourself as an unethical villain? =/

[Somewhatconcerned]

Like I said, "do anything to win" is Republican speak.

Then enjoy continuing to lose elections, I guess?

[Elegiac]

Ok, gotcha. Thanks for clarifying your position on the candidate's merits. I do love that you're grouping people into a category based on one condition and assuming almost vile attributes based on that one condition, despite objective evidence to the contrary.

If Bloomberg got the Democratic nomination, would you vote for him in the general election? Or would you let Trump win?

If we get to the point where the US electoral system has reached a choice between an actual fascist and someone who entered the primary race at the last second and still won by virtue of buying votes, I won't be shamed for refusing to participate in a sham election.

Also, miss me with that "billionaire is a slur" nonsense. This isn't generalisation of a demographic based on cock and bull pseudoscience, it's a basic fact that the existence of billionaires is a sign of a massive wealth imbalance and thus a failed economy and the continued pursuit of acquisition of wealth and prestige by these people is a clear sign they do not see anything wrong with what they are doing.

It's not malice, but insulation. That is not a good quality for an elected official, much less one who doesn't seem to be able to tell the political temperature is highly hostile to the mega wealthy.

I really don't know how to tell you that being a participant of a class of people whose existence is predicated on the exploitation and suffering of others is a bad thing, otherwise. /upshrug

[mvaliz]

I think the real question is not if he can do it, but whether he would surround himself with smart people who could give him good advice, and then will he take that good advice. To me that's what a leader is all about.

very true... i even said that out loud while I was reading that. :P

I guess the question here is, has he surrounded himself with smart people who could give him good advice on this topic, as that needs to be addressed before he takes office rather than later? (example: Dumbass Dump)

[Elegiac]

Well, more of a "Spend all my money to win"... Bloomberg isn't turning to the BS Smear campaigns like Dump did. The Tratorpublicans do anything to win, and that doesn't always involve spending money.

The people he sited aren't bad people though. I think both you and he agree on the Billionare part in general, but are you seriously telling me if you developed an idea that sprung into a multi-Billion-dollar company, you'd see yourself as an unethical villain? =/

Yes.

Because the invention of something does not necessitate an administrative structure designed to extract as much value as possible for the owners at the expense of everyone else.

Christ and Allah, Americans seem to have brain worms when it comes to the subject of money.

[cubby]

If we get to the point where the US electoral system has reached a choice between an actual fascist and someone who entered the primary race at the last second and still won by virtue of buying votes, I won't be shamed for refusing to participate in a sham election.

Yes, you will. And not only will you be shamed, the intellectually honest part of your personality will remind you time and again that it was your fault Trump won a second term.

Also, miss me with that "billionaire is a slur" nonsense. This isn't generalisation of a demographic based on cock and bull pseudoscience, it's a basic fact that the existence of billionaires is a sign of a massive wealth imbalance and thus a failed economy and the continued pursuit of acquisition of wealth and prestige by these people is a clear sign they do not see anything wrong with what they are doing.

It's not malice, but insulation. That is not a good quality for an elected official, much less one who doesn't seem to be able to tell the political temperature is highly hostile to the mega wealthy.

I really don't know how to tell you that being a participant of a class of people whose existence is predicated on the exploitation and suffering of others is a bad thing, otherwise. /upshrug

Fine, billionaires are a sign of massive wealth imbalance. Can we get past that in this conversation in this thread, or will you banging that drum till the end? I'd like your opinion on the candidates, but it won't help if you're so over the top biased that you won't be able to step back and provide some objective kudos or criticism of candidates because you're stuck on one particular issue.

For what it's worth, I agree about billionaires and wealth imbalance. We can definitely talk about that another time, in another thread.

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very true... i even said that out loud while I was reading that. :P

I guess the question here is, has he surrounded himself with smart people who could give him good advice on this topic, as that needs to be addressed before he takes office rather than later? (example: Dumbass Dump)

On the billionaire topic or coming in late? Or running for President?

[beanman12345]

If we get to the point where the US electoral system has reached a choice between an actual fascist and someone who entered the primary race at the last second and still won by virtue of buying votes, I won't be shamed for refusing to participate in a sham election.

Also, miss me with that "billionaire is a slur" nonsense. This isn't generalisation of a demographic based on cock and bull pseudoscience, it's a basic fact that the existence of billionaires is a sign of a massive wealth imbalance and thus a failed economy and the continued pursuit of acquisition of wealth and prestige by these people is a clear sign they do not see anything wrong with what they are doing.

It's not malice, but insulation. That is not a good quality for an elected official, much less one who doesn't seem to be able to tell the political temperature is highly hostile to the mega wealthy.

I really don't know how to tell you that being a participant of a class of people whose existence is predicated on the exploitation and suffering of others is a bad thing, otherwise. /upshrug

No, as my brother always says if you don't vote, you can't bitch. I mean technically you can, you can't claim any high ground since you chose not to participate.

[Elegiac]

Yes, you will. And not only will you be shamed, the intellectually honest part of your personality will remind you time and again that it was your fault Trump won a second term.

Nah, it wouldn't be: I live in WA. The state will vote for Mickey Mouse if it was on the Democrat ticket regardless of my feelings on the matter.

See the great thing about living in a failed democracy with a broken electoral system is that it is one of the few cases where abstention doesn't make a difference.

Fine, billionaires are a sign of massive wealth imbalance. Can we get past that in this conversation in this thread, or will you banging that drum till the end? I'd like your opinion on the candidates, but it won't help if you're so over the top biased that you won't be able to step back and provide some objective kudos or criticism of candidates because you're stuck on one particular issue.

For what it's worth, I agree about billionaires and wealth imbalance. We can definitely talk about that another time, in another thread.

And I'm not sure why you can't grasp the fact that given we have had a primary on for months at this point, dismissing a late entry out of hand isn't unreasonable.

The burden is on Bloomberg and his shills to show us why he's a candidate worth electing in spite of his wealth and in spite of the clear level of entitlement that is displayed by rocking up into the primary this late.

[mvaliz]

If we get to the point where the US electoral system has reached a choice between an actual fascist and someone who entered the primary race at the last second and still won by virtue of buying votes, I won't be shamed for refusing to participate in a sham election.

...you accuse me of gasslighting for Bernie, and yet this line right here is EXACTLY that of a 2016 Bernie-Bro mentality! >_<

"If my choice is a corrupt DNC hag or a corrupt buisnessman, I'm not going to vote!" - BernieBro mantra of 2016

In both cases I'll say what I said in 2016, and I'll say it again today: A non-vote means nothing. All it does is pass your power onto other people to chose for you. A non-vote doesn't represent anything. It doesn't improve anything. It doesn't change anything. It doesn't act as a vote of "no-confidence".... Also, on the flipside, an actual vote doesn't mean "I wholeheartedly endorse" either, and that's the key to remember.

It's a bad system that needs changing, so I'd vote for the one that gives me the highest future chance of changing that system, no matter how small an increase that chance may be. >_<

[Elegiac]

...you accuse me of gasslighting for Bernie, and yet this line right here is EXACTLY that of a 2016 Bernie-Bro mentality! >_<

"If my choice is a corrupt DNC hag or a corrupt buisnessman, I'm not going to vote!" - BernieBro mantra of 2016

I mean I'll still vote down ticket. Just not for the Presidency.

Most of my local and state level elected officials aren't corrupt shitbags.

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That feel when you'd literally rather vote for the person who helped instigate the student debt crisis than Bloomberg. /sigh

We live in a society. This is the choice we've been forced to.