Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[cubby]

Nah, it wouldn't be: I live in WA. The state will vote for Mickey Mouse if it was on the Democrat ticket regardless of my feelings on the matter.

See the great thing about living in a failed democracy with a broken electoral system is that it is one of the few cases where abstention doesn't make a difference.

Lol, fair enough. We just moved from there about a year ago, I know exactly what you mean. Interestingly, we moved to a more purple state, and that's been...interesting.

And I'm not sure why you can't grasp the fact that given we have had a primary on for months at this point, dismissing a late entry out of hand isn't unreasonable.

It's entirely unreasonable. Almost by definition of the word. And you know why, too - I'm curious if you're the type who can admit they're wrong, as well - there can almost no better trait than intellectual honesty. Just so you know, I have done so myself, in this thred.

The burden is on Bloomberg and his shills to show us why he's a candidate worth electing in spite of his wealth.

Agreed. And he's already done it. Or are you saying he has to personally come to your house and make you read something that is almost literally a click away? The onus is on you to be an educated voter. I'm sure you want that in everyone, right?

[mvaliz]

On the billionaire topic or coming in late? Or running for President?

On the part I boldfaced - the subject of surrounding yourself what smart people.

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I mean I'll still vote down ticket. Just not for the Presidency.

Most of my local and state level elected officials aren't corrupt shitbags.

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That feel when you'd literally rather vote for the person who helped instigate the student debt crisis than Bloomberg. /sigh

We live in a society. This is the choice we've been forced to.

Added to my original post since you responded - but basically was saying the same/similar thing. :P

[Elegiac]

Agreed. And he's already done it. Or are you saying he has to personally come to your house and make you read something that is almost literally a click away?

Considering I got an actual phone call from Elizabeth Warren?

Yeah, with how much money he has I'm expecting a lot better than "inundate the airwaves with ads that I'll never see because I'm under 45 and know how to use a VPN and adblock".

But that's besides the point - I'm opposed to him because it's a blatant display of corruption that I will not endorse under any circumstances.

[beanman12345]

I'd vote for a ham sandwich over trump.

[cubby]

On the part I boldfaced - the subject of surrounding yourself what smart people.

Oh, right - lol, duh. I am curious if he's done that. I'm on his website now, looking at key staff, etc. Would be weird to come back in a year and see this conversation as we celebrate President Bloomberg's First 100 Days....

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Considering I got an actual phone call from Elizabeth Warren?

Yeah, considering how much money he has I'm expecting a lot better than "inundate the airwaves with ads that I'll never see because I'm under 45 and know how to use a VPN and adblock".

But that's besides the point - I'm opposed to him because it's a blatant display of corruption that I will not endorse under any circumstances.

Who was one of your favorite people for President? Not necessarily now, but ever.

[Orbitus]

Then enjoy continuing to lose elections, I guess?

So, does this mean breaking the law to win those elections? Because that is LITERALLY what Republicans are doing with this Ukraine thing.

[Elegiac]

Who was one of your favorite people for President? Not necessarily now, but ever.

Yeah, I'm not interested in playing a game of gotcha.

Whatever previous executives may have done, it's irrelevant because I was not alive to make the decision to vote for them at the time. I am alive now, and have my vote, and am choosing to exercise it in such a way as to not endorse blatant corruption.

[cubby]

Yeah, I'm not interested in playing a game of gotcha.

Whatever previous executives may have done, it's irrelevant because I was not alive to make the decision to vote for them at the time. I am alive now, and have my vote, and am choosing to exercise it in such a way as to not endorse blatant corruption.

That kind of response usually indicates that someone knows they are wrong.

I was going to ask you if they entered "late", would you not consider them? And then there's the entirely arbitrary nature of "entering the race late" - what's the cut off?

So you go ahead and hate on candidates for little to no rational reason, and we'll do the heavy lifting of finding out the pros and cons of potentially viable candidates.

[Thekri]

I am not super happy to see Biden and Sanders on top of the pack right now. They were both in the bottom half of the field for my preferences. My ranked preferences for the people remaining:

1) Warren
2) Buttigeg
3) Klobuchar
4) Yang? (It gets hard here)
5) Biden
6) Steyer
7) Sanders

I really actively dislike the remaining candidates, Bloomberg and Gabbard in particular. I don't think I could vote for either of them, but maybe I could hold my nose for Bloomberg. Still, assuming one of the above 7 gets the nomination, I just hope we don't have any feuds going past the convention. We can't screw this up, we need only one candidate as fast as possible.

[tyrlaan]

I just hope all you people dunking on Sanders are able to muster whatever is necessary to vote for him in the general if he wins the primary. From what I see, most people that ree about people "voting blue no matter who" are fans of other candidates, so it best not be hypocritical bullshit that ends up giving us another Trump term.

[cubby]

I just hope all you people dunking on Sanders are able to muster whatever is necessary to vote for him in the general if he wins the primary. From what I see, most people that ree about people "voting blue no matter who" are fans of other candidates, so it best not be hypocritical bullshit that ends up giving us another Trump term.

Most or all of us are on record, in this thread, saying will vote for Bernie if he gets the nomination. Are you getting that same commitment from Bernie Bros?

[Thekri]

I just hope all you people dunking on Sanders are able to muster whatever is necessary to vote for him in the general if he wins the primary. From what I see, most people that ree about people "voting blue no matter who" are fans of other candidates, so it best not be hypocritical bullshit that ends up giving us another Trump term.

Oh I would vote for Sanders over Trump. I hope he picks a good vice president though, I am not sure he is going to make it another 4 years. I don't think Sanders would be a very good president, I don't think he would be effective at repairing the damage to the executive branch. I think he would be mostly fine on foreign policy, and mostly deadlocked with Congress on all legislative stuff.

I have some respect for Sanders, I just don't think he is what the country really needs right now. He is still about ten billion times better then Trump, since he isn't going to actively and maliciously destroy our system of government. I think Warren is the best suited for getting in the weeds and repairing all the damage to all the executive departments, although she won't get much done in Congress either.

[beanman12345]

Most or all of us are on record, in this thread, saying will vote for Bernie if he gets the nomination. Are you getting that same commitment from Bernie Bros?

Im a bernie sanders supporter, but as I said earlier, if the blues pick a ham sandwich i'd vote it over trump.

[Skroe]

I just hope all you people dunking on Sanders are able to muster whatever is necessary to vote for him in the general if he wins the primary. From what I see, most people that ree about people "voting blue no matter who" are fans of other candidates, so it best not be hypocritical bullshit that ends up giving us another Trump term.

Even I will vote for Bernie-fucking-Sanders, a sham of a man whose supporters are far too similar in the 'weird and un-American cult" fashion of Donald-fucking-Trump.

I will hold my nose and vote for him in the general election. Still the easiest vote of my life though.

But let me explain why.

I believe Bernie Sanders is wrong on basically everything. And it's going to be a real pleasure watching him sign four $800 billion military budgets as part of four bipartisan budgets (just as Obama and Trump did, starting in 2015), and no Medicare For All. I've tried to explain to the Bernie Bros how sausage is made for for years. It's been a positively adorable exercise in thinking passion matters worth a spit in Mitch McConnell's Senate. Trump's Wall and M4A are exactly the same thing: hyper expensive proposals that does not posses anything close to a congressional majority to turn into law as part of a budget. So Bernie will accept option (B) which is tinkering with Obamacare, just as Trump accepted option (B), allocating military construction funds utilizing long existing budget authorization to put fence up along mostly pre-existing areas and call it his "wall". I will find it amusing because I am genuinely turned off to political ideologues who think their passion is a replacement for the legitimizing process and deal making. It deserves to blow up in their self righteous faces.

But I will vote for Bernie Sanders all the same.

I will vote for him all the same because, as wrong as he is about everything, he is not a malicious man. He is not an evil man. He is not an amoral man. He genuinely believes in democracy and the rule of law. He want's progressive things that I do not agree with, but exist firmly within the historic normal boundaries of American politics. He is a New Deal Democrat, who for some reason decided to shit his own bed and make a foolhardy effort to rehabilitate the word "Socialist". Bernie Sanders has the best interest in the American people at heart and the United States will be a safer, better, more moral country under him, than under Donald Trump. There is really no comparison. I think Sanders would be a very poor President, but not a dangerous one. He and I simply have a principled (and very American!) disagreement on the correct way to make our country better, healthier, safer and freer. He is generally a good man (but far from the saint his supporters think him) and a patriotic American.

By contrast Donald Trump is an evil man. He is a malignant tumor on American democracy. His cult is un-American in itself. He is only interested in enriching himself and his friends. He as advocated and attempted to advance many radical, un-American and anti-American policies that attack the Constitution, the Rule of Law, human rights and human decency. He is an unindicted criminal. Every day he is in office, the world is in grave danger. Every day he is in office, America is lessened. Bernie Sanders is wrong about policies that are in America's interest. Donald Trump on the other hand, is a personified ongoing attack on America itself. We have been damned lucky that as President he's seen only minor, fleeting criseses by-in-large, and nothing sustained. He is the defilement of the American Idea. He is illegitimate in ever conceivable way.

I have one concern with Bernie and one demand.

The first concern is that as President, he must swear to lay down the vast amount of executive power handed to him by Congress since World War II. He must sign bipartisan legislation designed to significantly weaken the Presidency. The Presidency as powerful as it is, is a danger to democracy. I have my doubts that he'll do this. He'll want to advance his agenda, and stymied by McConnell, he'll be the latest President to abuse executive orders to advance his agenda. But make no mistake: this is far more urgent and crucial than M4A, free college, or anything else. American Democracy is undermined every day the Presidency is as powerful as it is. And it will take a Democrat to break its power.

The demand that I have is that he doesn't let bygones by bygones and fully investigates and where necessary prosecutes every member of the Trump criminal enterprise. He must not be afraid of having a key point of controversy in his Presidency to be sending Trump, Pompeo, Rudy and others to jail. He must not be afraid to spend significant political capital in bringing the criminal enterprise here to justice. He must not be afraid to fight the ridiculous notion of "this will divide the country". The country fucking needs the shock therapy and if it can't handle wrong dooers being brought to justice, it doesn't deserve the liberal democratic traditions we inherited.

As President, he may be allowed to have two epitaphs when he is done: "Healthcare Guru" and "Trump Hunter".

Because I'll tell you right now: I'll support Nominee Sanders enthusastically because it would mean replacing Trump, in 2020. But in 2024, if the above two things aren't addressed, there is no way in hell I'll support him.

[Shadowferal]

A plutocrat like Boomberg is only in this for ego.

[Elegiac]

That kind of response usually indicates that someone knows they are wrong.

Or that I've done this dance with Bernie Bros for the last two electoral cycles and I'm wise to it, lol.

I was going to ask you if they entered "late", would you not consider them? And then there's the entirely arbitrary nature of "entering the race late" - what's the cut off?

Ignoring the part about entering the race late as a function of buying their way to electoral victory.

It would be different if it were an organic or grassroots push for a late entry, yes.

So you go ahead and hate on candidates for little to no rational reason, and we'll do the heavy lifting of finding out the pros and cons of potentially viable candidates.

There's nothing irrational about drawing a line concerning the further descent of politics into grift and corruption.

[Telogrus]

I am not super happy to see Biden and Sanders on top of the pack right now. They were both in the bottom half of the field for my preferences. My ranked preferences for the people remaining:

1) Warren
2) Buttigeg
3) Klobuchar
4) Yang? (It gets hard here)
5) Biden
6) Steyer
7) Sanders

I really actively dislike the remaining candidates, Bloomberg and Gabbard in particular. I don't think I could vote for either of them, but maybe I could hold my nose for Bloomberg. Still, assuming one of the above 7 gets the nomination, I just hope we don't have any feuds going past the convention. We can't screw this up, we need only one candidate as fast as possible.

Sanders is the most ideologically similar to Warren, so how is he last?

[Elegiac]

Sanders is the most ideologically similar to Warren, so how is he last?

Lack of political competence.

[Telogrus]

Even I will vote for Bernie-fucking-Sanders, a sham of a man whose supporters are far too similar in the 'weird and un-American cult" fashion of Donald-fucking-Trump.

I will hold my nose and vote for him in the general election. Still the easiest vote of my life though.

But let me explain why.

I believe Bernie Sanders is wrong on basically everything. And it's going to be a real pleasure watching him sign four $800 billion military budgets as part of four bipartisan budgets (just as Obama and Trump did, starting in 2015), and no Medicare For All. I've tried to explain to the Bernie Bros how sausage is made for for years. It's been a positively adorable exercise in thinking passion matters worth a spit in Mitch McConnell's Senate. Trump's Wall and M4A are exactly the same thing: hyper expensive proposals that does not posses anything close to a congressional majority to turn into law as part of a budget. So Bernie will accept option (B) which is tinkering with Obamacare, just as Trump accepted option (B), allocating military construction funds utilizing long existing budget authorization to put fence up along mostly pre-existing areas and call it his "wall". I will find it amusing because I am genuinely turned off to political ideologues who think their passion is a replacement for the legitimizing process and deal making. It deserves to blow up in their self righteous faces.

But I will vote for Bernie Sanders all the same.

I will vote for him all the same because, as wrong as he is about everything, he is not a malicious man. He is not an evil man. He is not an amoral man. He genuinely believes in democracy and the rule of law. He want's progressive things that I do not agree with, but exist firmly within the historic normal boundaries of American politics. He is a New Deal Democrat, who for some reason decided to shit his own bed and make a foolhardy effort to rehabilitate the word "Socialist". Bernie Sanders has the best interest in the American people at heart and the United States will be a safer, better, more moral country under him, than under Donald Trump. There is really no comparison. I think Sanders would be a very poor President, but not a dangerous one. He and I simply have a principled (and very American!) disagreement on the correct way to make our country better, healthier, safer and freer. He is generally a good man (but far from the saint his supporters think him) and a patriotic American.

By contrast Donald Trump is an evil man. He is a malignant tumor on American democracy. His cult is un-American in itself. He is only interested in enriching himself and his friends. He as advocated and attempted to advance many radical, un-American and anti-American policies that attack the Constitution, the Rule of Law, human rights and human decency. He is an unindicted criminal. Every day he is in office, the world is in grave danger. Every day he is in office, America is lessened. Bernie Sanders is wrong about policies that are in America's interest. Donald Trump on the other hand, is a personified ongoing attack on America itself. We have been damned lucky that as President he's seen only minor, fleeting criseses by-in-large, and nothing sustained. He is the defilement of the American Idea. He is illegitimate in ever conceivable way.

I have one concern with Bernie and one demand.

The first concern is that as President, he must swear to lay down the vast amount of executive power handed to him by Congress since World War II. He must sign bipartisan legislation designed to significantly weaken the Presidency. The Presidency as powerful as it is, is a danger to democracy. I have my doubts that he'll do this. He'll want to advance his agenda, and stymied by McConnell, he'll be the latest President to abuse executive orders to advance his agenda. But make no mistake: this is far more urgent and crucial than M4A, free college, or anything else. American Democracy is undermined every day the Presidency is as powerful as it is. And it will take a Democrat to break its power.

The demand that I have is that he doesn't let bygones by bygones and fully investigates and where necessary prosecutes every member of the Trump criminal enterprise. He must not be afraid of having a key point of controversy in his Presidency to be sending Trump, Pompeo, Rudy and others to jail. He must not be afraid to spend significant political capital in bringing the criminal enterprise here to justice. He must not be afraid to fight the ridiculous notion of "this will divide the country". The country fucking needs the shock therapy and if it can't handle wrong dooers being brought to justice, it doesn't deserve the liberal democratic traditions we inherited.

As President, he may be allowed to have two epitaphs when he is done: "Healthcare Guru" and "Trump Hunter".

Because I'll tell you right now: I'll support Nominee Sanders enthusastically because it would mean replacing Trump, in 2020. But in 2024, if the above two things aren't addressed, there is no way in hell I'll support him.

Wouldn’t the Senate be more dangerous to democracy than the presidency considering that it gives the 500k people of Wyoming as much representation as the 30M people of California?

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Lack of political competence.

He put Yang above Bernie, so that’s not it

[eschatological]

1) you're VERY wrong about the emails being after Hillary had won (I'm talking about the DNC email hack, not the "ButterEmials" crap).

Yes, I'm also talking about the DNC EMail hack. All the EMails those DNC staffers sent to each other were from AFTER Hillary had sewn up the nomination, but Bernie had refused to give up. I believe they were all from May or later, when she couldn't lose the nomination. Bernie refused to acknowledge that fact, and his followers kept insisting he had a chance if he somehow magically convinced the superdelegates to switch to his side (he still would have lost, though, which people can't seem to accept, that's how thoroughly Hillary beat him).

Conveniently, those EMails came out the week of the convention, so that the convention was fractured. Bernie sat there silently, not saying shit until he was on stage.

Here, it seems like you forgot his speech at the 2016 convention. He spent the first few minutes congratulating himself and his campaign, and outlining the highlights of his policies. Then, it came time for him to ringingly endorse the woman who beat him:

"Let me be as clear as I can be. This election is not about and has never been about Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump or Bernie Sanders or any of the other candidates who sought the presidency. This election is not about political gossip, it's not about polls, it's not about campaign strategy, it is not about all the things that the media spends so much time discussing."

He then went on to speak more about his political revolution. Then, he said, "This election is about which candidate understands the real problems facing this country and has offered real solutions," without ever suggesting that was Hillary.

The next time he mentioned Hillary was a few paragraphs later, where, again, he reigned back his enthusiasm, and said the bare minimum: "By these measures, any objective observer will conclude that based on her ideas and her leadership, Hillary Clinton must become the next president of the United States."

He then said a whole bunch of things where "Hillary Clinton understands that..." and then followed it up by imprinting his stump speech on her, instead of touting her policies.

He spoke more about Donald Trump in his speech than Hillary, and it was a very lukewarm, perfunctory endorsement, at best.

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If you think Bloomberg is another Trump, tell me why? All I'm asking is what about him, from business practices to previous offices to policy position to business interests, that you don't like.

Banging the "he's a billionaire" drum is fine, I don't agree, but I can see that as a criticism is fine - but it there anything else?

People keep forgetting that Bloomberg was an awful mayor of NYC.

Also, billionaires by nature are out of touch, and he's completely against the wealth tax. His policies for raising rates on the wealthy are window dressing. I imagine it'll be something like raising the top bracket to Clinton levels (roughly 37% or so), and that's it.