Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[Elegiac]

Exactly what is the underlying problem?

I don't see any except for political preferences.

You guys are throwing your toys out of the pram because a big part of the democrat voterbase is -fed up- with 'moderate / status quo / establishment' democrats.

Why couldn't any of them be arsed enough to show up in Iowa and vote for Bernie to keep him clear of parity with anthropomorphic mayonnaise, then.

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If you guys -really- care about all this (democratic judges, Trump not getting another term, etc.) then you guys must support Bernie during the primaries.

Loyalty to Dear Leader is mandatory, comrade.

[Zython]

those LARPing swine aren't gonna do anything. they're nothing but cowards that'll roll over the second master tells them to. you can take that to the bank. the US is a land of privileged, domesticated cattle. i say this as an american.

They've already killed dozens.

but anyway, it seems like buttigieg could win in new hampshire. i can see the appeal, he does seem somewhat likable honestly. i have no problem other than snickering every time i hear his surname. how unfortunate, to be born gay and have a surname that sounds like "booty judge".

I have no idea why anyone likes him. He just oozes smarm.

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Why couldn't any of them be arsed enough to show up in Iowa and vote for Bernie to keep him clear of parity with anthropomorphic mayonnaise, then.

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Loyalty to Dear Leader is mandatory, comrade.

Racism, mostly.

[Elegiac]

I have no idea why anyone likes him. He just oozes smarm.

Grifters wouldn't be able to grift if there weren't suckers, sadly.

[Elegiac]

Racism, mostly.

Really? I had no idea Iowans had that level of prejudice towards people from Vermont.

And that's the point; how's this supposed to be a political revolution if you can't keep ahead of a grifter no one had heard of prior to a year or so ago?

[Zython]

The Bernie Bros phenomenon is a VERY serious problem. People like the ones I quoted, those that ignore the problem. You used the word "projection" - are you implying that I don't have the wits to realize that the Bernie Bros are a serious issue for the DNC?

I don't get it. If people's behavior online is a big enough phenomenon to be an issue, then you have to admit that his appeal is strong enough to win an election. You can't say that the internet isn't real life in regards to his support, then say his online support is a major problem.

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Really? I had no idea Iowans had that level of prejudice towards people from Vermont.

Well, you're ignoring how the numerous attempts to shut down PoC votes in Iowa, the gentrification of Iowa in general, or anti-semitism towards Bernie.

And that's the point; how's this supposed to be a political revolution if you can't keep ahead of a grifter no one had heard of prior to a year or so ago?

He is keeping ahead, though. He won Iowa, will likely win NH, and will beat him in every state that's less than 90% white.

[Elegiac]

Is this an attempt to derail the subject from an uncomfortable truth or something?

Bernie won the popular vote in Iowa. Iowa was the state into which Pete invested the majority of his campaigning resources.

Indeed. Bernie won the popular vote without making significant improvement on his 2016 performance there.

Especially when you consider Bernie Sanders has near universal name and policy recognition in the US. Pete having a lot of resources in Iowa means very little - especially since Warren has had boots on the ground in the state for far longer than any of the current candidates.

If you take the Iowa vote to be representative then Biden / Bloomberg and Warren are already irrelevant and should bow out of the race.

Fortunately, we don't. Because Iowa isn't remotely representative of the rest of the country by virtue of being lily white, among other reasons.

The South and California exist, comrade.

I'll bring it back to subject:
You are not going to change people's mindsets. If you want to hit Trump with full power you'll have to support Bernie during the primaries. It is the pragmatic solution to all your problems. You'll get to appoint your judges, you'll be able to make all the (small) changes you wouldn't under Trump.

"Only I can fix it" is the mantra of aspiring totalitarians.

Hard pass. What you describe can be done by a number of other Democratic candidates and probably with less heartache considering they don't have such an acrimonious relationship with the rest of the party.

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Well, you're ignoring how the numerous attempts to shut down PoC votes in Iowa, the gentrification of Iowa in general, or anti-semitism towards Bernie.

Pretty much, since it's not particularly significant when you control for Bernie's established difficulty in reaching minority communities.

He is keeping ahead, though. He won Iowa, will likely win NH, and will beat him in every state that's less than 90% white.

Mhm.

Except it's not Buttigieg he has to beat in the non-white states; it's Biden. And Bernie doesn't have the numbers there.

[Elegiac]

I'm reading this especially as a shortcoming of Warren then?

I'm not the one claiming that only Warren can fix the country's ills and that she's somehow representative of a "silent majority".

It's just evidence that Pete's Iowa focus isn't necessarily to blame for Sanders' anemic performance there compared to 2016.

Okay so what was your point of bringing it up to begin with?

Cause the "racism" explanation was bullshit. Go back and read what I was replying to.

Not if they don't get the votes, do they?

This is not about any one personality, there could've been a thousand other social-democrats and they all would've gotten support. Bernie just so happens to be the only social-democrat that is running. It's a pretty lame attempt and debasing the conversation to try and claim that somehow this is people trying to make him the next coming of Stalin or Mao...

Yeah, no.

You're confusing the country being desirous of a change with a surge in public support for a particular ideology. As well as imposing ridiculous purity tests on a term as nebulous as social democracy to begin with.

This is a purely practical solution, when you know that you have all these people who are willing to help you kick Trump out of the White House, but only if there is a social-democrat as nominee, then why aren't you supporting them?

Do you want Trump out of the White House or not?

Replace "social democrat" with "racist" and you'll see why this line of reasoning deserves a hearty middle finger as a response.

And no, I'm not calling Bernie a racist though I highly expect you'll accuse me of such anyway. I'm saying that threatening me with a zero sum situation if I refuse to acquiesce to your choice in candidate is how Trump hijacked the GOP. Hard pass.

[Skroe]

Do you want Trump out of the White House or not?

Of course but Bernie is not the way. He’s the candidate Trump wants to face the most because it the. He turns it into a choice election rather than a referendum on Trump. That is an election Trump will win because the majority of Americans will not choose socialism. 20-24% of one party that represents about 25% of the electorate will. Not a winning strategy.

As ever the political revolution requires massively expanding its appeal beyond the base... which there is no evidence of it actually happening. Again... slogan.... it’s it a real revolution.

Every Bernie bro trying to turn this into a policy election - it is not - is doing Trumps dirty work for for him. This is a referendum on Trump, the end. Bernie should know his role in this and shut his mouth.

The broader anti-Trump effort doesn’t need Bernie supporters anyway. They don’t live in the right places. So they can stay home and pout on Election Day for all they matter. Unless a few hundred thousand more of them up and move to Wisconsin before the fall, they can go fuck themselves. Really us in the anti-Trump coalition have been more than patient with these jokers but enough is enough.

If BernieBros want to take hostages, shoot them through the hostages and then get the hostages medical attention. Don’t allow them the power.

[Skroe]

So one hand you have people complaining that the Bernie supporters will only vote "Bernie or Bust" and on the other hand you're now claiming that their argument implies that Bernie is claiming support from a silent majority? You need to make up your mind which one of these two is right:

A) A large part of the Bernie Supporters won't vote for anyone but Bernie
B) A large part of the Bernie Supporters will vote for another candidate than Bernie

I believe we already had someone post a msm poll earlier which stated that about 30-40% ish of Bernie supporters will only vote for Bernie, but not any other democratic nominees, while for other democratic nominee supporters this total was around 5 to 10%.




You replied to me as far as I can see. I don't know what the "racism" angle is about? But I do notice that Iowa voters seem a bit "very white" in their preferences.




Those are interpretations you are making. I find those very silly and incorrect interpretations of what is going on it, and I keep trying to explain it from the basic point of view, but you keep trying to put this weird spin on it and then start calling everything "purity tests" or something.




I don't understand the line of reasoning from that first sentence. How would you be able to equate a quality such as 'social-democrat' with 'racist' ? You completely lost me there.

I'm merely offering the very obvious and practical solution, the surest way to get Trump out of office:
- Bernie will have the entire "democratic voterbase" voting for him, or most of it... 95%.
- Biden / Bloomberg / Warren will have less of the "democratic voterbase" voting for them... ranging from 60 to 90% somewhere.

It seems pretty obvious to me which candidate you should support during the primaries if getting Trump out of office and democrat judges into the Supreme Court is your end-goal. Maybe you should do a bit less 'purity testing' on your own end?

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Most sources I'm reading seem to explain that Trump is the most afraid of Bernie.

There were leaked audio recordings weren't there of Trump saying he was afraid of facing Bernie but could easily take all the other candidates?
Found it: "Leaked sources and audio from the White House confirms Trump is the -most- afraid of Bernie Sanders"

Other than that, you're saying a lot of words that have no meaning to me, sorta like a Pete speech.

As for social-democracy?
- Most americans are in favor of universal healthcare
- Most americans are in favor of free education
- Most americans are in favor of stronger welfare
- Most americans are in favor of stronger worker rights
- Most americans are in favor of stronger minority rights
- Most americans are in favor of reduced military spending

- Most americans are social-democrats who keep getting fearmongered by people like you, ultra-conservatives and elitist neo-liberals, that voting for a social-democrat will cause them to lose.

Indeed, enough is enough. Enough of your types trying to run the show and doing an extremely incompetent and lackluster job at it.

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Actually, I'm not done yet.

Your establishment democrats, your little elitist neo-liberal clique, is the reason why Trump got elected in the first place. 8 years of disappointing Obama regime was enough to finally radicalize enough people to get disillusioned with politics.

And then after that? What did the establishment democrats achieve? Pelosi and co and all the others at whose feet you seem to grovel by giving them a few thousand dollar donation cheques.

Failure after failure.
Failed impeachment.
Failed civil resistance against a disgusting White House.
Just a big fat nothing.

Posting from my phone so I’ll answer the rest later but I just had to reply to this one point.

“8 years of the disappointing Obama regime”? I actually cracked up reading that.

Because you experienced any of that, didn’t you, foreigner.

You know I get a fellow westerner advocating a certain set of policies. But back the fuck off alien, you’re getting too familiar. To my knowledge from our conversations you’ve never even been to the United States, so it is nothing less than extraordinary arrogant presumption to presume you understand the wants, needs and motivations of the American voter.

To put it plainly you did not live “the Obama regime”. You lived the rolling Eurocrisis and Brexit and all the wonderful things the EU has done to deplete it’s global power and curb the welfare of its citizens in the 2010s.

Honestly you say a lot of nutty shit that few here take seriously (and rightfully so, it’s all very nonserious) but to be someone who has never lived in the US, and inject yourself as some kind of “I know and understand what they need and want because I lived it” style experience is just the most farcical self parody I’ve seen in this forum in some times.

Keep up the good work.

[PACOX]

The MSM is out here playing people like fiddles.

[Skroe]

The MSM is out here playing people like fiddles.

Bitching about the “MSM”.... really? That’s what the common Trumphadi does in its natural habitat (Fox News).

Sweet Christmas. Be better than that. Bernie not being exactly a winner isn’t the “lame stream media’s” fault. It’s because he hit a support ceiling about 8 months ago and can’t break through it.

He did that. It’s all him. Instead of being surprised M4A polls badly and blaming the pollsters perhaps ask WHY Americans don’t seem terribly interested in it.

I mean I’ve told you folks before but you all blue screen of death when confronted with the horrifying truth: most Americans don’t care if their fellow man dots and won’t accept universality if it means higher personal costs (or different types costs, such as taxes instead of a bill) l. The way into their hearts is to make it an egotistical exercise for them. Tell them how M4A benefits them, to hell with their fellow man.

But hey what do I know. I can just read the Same data all BernieBros could if they broke out of the cult mentality for five minutes....

[PACOX]

But hey what do I know. I can just read the Same data all BernieBros could if they broke out of the cult mentality for five minutes...

I literally said one thing with zero context.

You're proving a few things right with 'you people' and 'Bernie Bro' charge.

I've supported Bernie for about a hot month. You can go through my comment history to see where I said Bernie shouldn't even run. Probably said something along the lines of his old ass needs to sit down somewhere. Corrected many people who were 'Bernie or bust' or talked about DNC conspiracy theories. Yet I'm a Bernie Bro. Ok, cool. You're just here because your party imploded.

It seems like over a news cycle that anyone who doesn't support a particular candidate is the 'enemy'. If people are shaken by some trolls on Twitter and talking heads on MSM then everyone against Trump has already played themselves. People eating from the palms of CNN like old red hats and Fox News.

At some point, a candidate will come out on top and everyone is going to have to unify behind said person. All this mudslinging now is going to make that very difficult. You don't think the Right is getting a kick out this shit?

[Skroe]

I literally said one thing with zero context.

You're proving a few things right with 'you people' and 'Bernie Bro' charge.

I've supported Bernie for about a hot month. You can go through my comment history to see where I said Bernie shouldn't even run. Probably said something along the lines of his old ass needs to sit down somewhere. Corrected many people who were 'Bernie or bust' or talked about DNC conspiracy theories. Yet I'm a Bernie Bro. Ok, cool. You're just here because your party imploded.

It seems like over a news cycle that anyone who doesn't support a particular candidate is the 'enemy'. If people are shaken by some trolls on Twitter and talking heads on MSM then everyone against Trump has already played themselves. People eating from the palms of CNN like old red hats and Fox News.

At some point, a candidate will come out on top and everyone is going to have to unify behind said person. All this mudslinging now is going to make that very difficult. You don't think the Right is getting a kick out this shit?

Nah it is mostly stemming from the fact that over the last few weeks the latent bad behavior of the Bernie Sanders cult of personality reawakened and reminded all of us why it was so problematic in 2016.

At least after this go around, there will be no sequel. The “BernieBro” as a thing dies with Sanders’ candidacy. And it will not be replaced. By the next go around, many of his supporters will be in a different place in their lives, and he’ll probably be off this mortal coil.

Let’s get something straight right now. I want Bernie Sanders to lose the nomination. Not only do I think his policies are just plain bad, but I think Donald Trump would destroy him in the general election. As amusing as it would be to see internet democratic socialists eat shit when America rejects what they’re selling, Donald Trump is a price far too high for such facile anusement.

But if indeed he is the nominee I will donate the maximum amount I’m able to to him. (Around $2900). I will vote for him. And then if by some miracle he wins, I will wait in baited breath as he fails as a president. As he signs Bipartisan budget bills and advances none of his agenda.

Want to know where my animosity comes from? I have an extreme respect for the governing process. The budget bills passed since 2015 have been GOOD burgers for almost everyone. More they’re passing with such majorities they are defensible. I remember when the US engaged in repeated major budget fights for well over a decade. The modern budget consensus has produced a budget that would advance this country’s welfare and interest, broadly, for decades to come if it continues. So I jealously guard it in my advocacy against challenges. I laughed as it wiped out vast swathes of Trumps agenda. I will similarly delight when it wipes out Bernies political revolution as well.

This country was founded in compromise and that budget model represents something in the very best tradition of compromise. The Bernie vision... the Trump vision.... they are antithetical to that.

The way we get back to sanely governing this country is for politicians and voters to accept splitting the loaf of bread with the other power centers and stakeholders in this country. We need to reform compromise into a aspirational word, rather than a dirty one.

The politics of demands must die and the politics of trust must be slowly rebuilt.

Bernie Sanders and his cult may be useful tools in taking Trump down but they are an ally of mine in basically nothing else. In reality, they are part of the problem.

So I’m very much down was a “fuck em” mindset. If they turn out in November 2020, great. If they don’t... To hell with them and their fucken beliefs. But the rest of us shouldn’t give one inch to them anymore than we should the Trumphadi cult. They are the same. And both are deeply un-American.

[Mihalik]

Utter horseshit and Neocon drivel equating progressivism with Trumpism

It is becoming increasingly clear to me that we need 4 more years of Trump, a lifetime of Reich wing SCOTUS and a couple of extra nails in the coffin of America before we finally put the Neocon delusions irredeemably to rest.

Otherwise your ilk JUST WON'T FUCKING GET IT. You are and have been consistently WRONG ON EVERYTHING! EVERYTHING.

[Skroe]

It is becoming increasingly clear to me that we need 4 more years of Trump, a lifetime of Reich wing SCOTUS and a couple of extra nails in the coffin of America before we finally put the Neocon delusions irredeemably to rest.

Otherwise your ilk JUST WON'T FUCKING GET IT. You are and have been consistently WRONG ON EVERYTHING! EVERYTHING.

First I want to say that one of the small delights in this world - like a cherry in my coke - has been the ongoing process of redefining “neocon” to mean new things. Honestly I feel I should start a “Neocon Bakery” or “neocon car wash”. The politically immature and undisciplined, incapable of expressing themselves in words with actual meaning and relevance has reduce “neocon” to a point of utter meaningless.

Fuck me, do I miss the mid-2000s. At least being called a neocon evoked more than an amused chuckle then.

Secondly the thoughts you expressed in your diatribe there are the epitome of what I just said - the politically immature and undisciplined.

I’m going to contribute $2900 and maybe more to a PAC should saint sanders be the nominee. That will likely make me a greater net contributor to Bernie becoming President than you. Or most of the Bernie Bro’s here. Dollars buys adds. Dollars pay staff. Dollars fund the get out the vote campaign. You can’t run a campaign on enthusiasm.

I think that’s what’s bothering you at some level. I will help Bernie more actually win should be get to the nominee stage than the likes of the common BernieBro, but there I am, taking a Cleveland Steamer on the things Bernie stands for. I will donate and vote for a man I anticipate and truly hope will fail. And fail badly. Very badly.


If you are so small, immature and have so little to lose you honestly think that under any circumstances 4 more years of Donald Trump is something you’re willing to see “to teach us a lesson” (spoiler alert: it won’t) , then you’re just confirming the perceived problem with the Bernie Sanders cult and frankly, we people who are actually against trump, regardless of the candidate, really don’t need the likes of you.

I’ll put it more basically. Stay home on Election Day. Protest your hearts delight. Nobody fucken cares. You discredit yourself. You sideline yourself. You do not “tech us a thing or two”.

I do find the weakness of your convictions so amusing though. I mean I’m a small government, light regulation conservative who will support a Democratic socialists if it means beating an un-American President and his fascist crime syndicate. But you... You through this post won’t even support another progressive if it isn’t Saint Sanders I.

This is why this “neocon” is the better man.

[starlord]

It is becoming increasingly clear to me that we need 4 more years of Trump, a lifetime of Reich wing SCOTUS and a couple of extra nails in the coffin of America before we finally put the Neocon delusions irredeemably to rest.

Otherwise your ilk JUST WON'T FUCKING GET IT. You are and have been consistently WRONG ON EVERYTHING! EVERYTHING.

you think 4 more years of trump stacking the courts will help your agenda in any way shape or form? or hurt the neocon one?

dont cut off your nose to spite your face.

[Telogrus]

I’m so worried that it’s gonna become a contested convention, with Bernie having the plurality of votes at that time. The DNC will be stupid enough to nominate someone else besides Bernie, even though he won the popular vote, and then Trump will not only be guaranteed a win, but a landslide victory.

[starlord]

I’m so worried that it’s gonna become a contested convention, with Bernie having the plurality of votes at that time. The DNC will be stupid enough to nominate someone else besides Bernie, even though he won the popular vote, and then Trump will not only be guaranteed a win, but a landslide victory.

you guys won't accept any outcome that isn't bernie winning as legitimate in any case.

[Muzjhath]

I’m so worried that it’s gonna become a contested convention, with Bernie having the plurality of votes at that time. The DNC will be stupid enough to nominate someone else besides Bernie, even though he won the popular vote, and then Trump will not only be guaranteed a win, but a landslide victory.

Why would anyone who is a member of the democratic party tell their delegates to vote for someone who isn't a member of the democratic party?

[Shadowferal]

I'll support Bernie, I'll support Warren, I'll support Biden... I don't see anyone else in the long game.