Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[NED funded]

Whats with all the youtube videos??

Like get an actual source that isnt some rando youtuber

[Grapemask]

A debate at this point will only hurt Biden's image - either from ignorantly labeled "gaffe's" or Bernie looking to score points. Sanders can go to Biden privately and discuss policy agendas. A debate is not needed.

If you're worried this one debate will hurt Biden, then he is absolutely doomed in the general. He has a things a lot harder ahead of him in this contest than a one-on-one with an obstinate old man.

[Theodarzna]

Except one is a response to the behavior of the supporters of a candidate. The post you're comparing it to is literally that Sanders supporter saying, "Give us our way or we'll fucking shoot you." in response to...nothing.

How is it that when the correct interpretation is "I expect X, Y, or Z for my vote?" you act as if not immediately genuflecting is some sign of severe insolence and disrespect.

Furthermore, as I said earlier, how can you entertain this Bernie Bros canard when the logic is exactly the same as I lay out. People are harsh online so you don't support their candidate. Well, people are being pretty mean and toxic to Sanders voters so why should Sanders voters reject the toxic and awful bullying of these Biden Boys and their vicious nasty ways of treating Sanders voters?

Or as I explained earlier:

The whole logic of concern about "Bernie Bros" is the exact same logic of an MRA calling all Feminist cancerous because of mean tumblr posts and Amanda Marcotte articles and a "#KillAllMen" tweet thread. In the end the logic of "These people are mean and toxic to me and make me uncomfortable, thus their cause and message must be evil and bad and I hate them now" is the same.

Essentially the logic of your Bernie Bro concern is the same logic of the MRA. "Someone tweeted a snake at me or my favorite person? Welp, the Poors shouldn't get healthcare because someone on the internet said something that made me feel uncomfortable."

I am curious what the distinction is between these people who complain about "Bernie Bros" and say Sargon of Akkad/Applebees who says Feminism is Cancer because of what is found on Tumblr blogs.

I can get why NED funded would hide their true intentions in opposing Bernie Sanders, his or her virulent hatred of say Teachers Unions and workers rights would make Sanders a natural enemy, but saying that outright looks bad so the Bernie Bro canard works as a nice cover, but you ostensibly at least have some alleged sympathies for a National Health Service.... or do you? Maybe the lot of you simply say this out of a true hatred for the kind of policies he supports, but for whatever reason don't want to just say that.

[Edge-]

If you want to know why she is a fraud there is a video explaining it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJGSMDjI7lk

Lots of jump-cuts!

Some nonsense about Warren acting a bit cringy at an event like it means something.

Booker joking that nobody laughs at his bad dad jokes in response.

BUT BIDEN!!!!!!!!!! out of fucking nowhere.

BUT BUTTIGIEG DANCE SOME OTHER PEOPLE DID THAT BUTTIGIEG DIDN'T! BECAUSE REASONS!!!

Then cites this article in part - https://www.mediaite.com/opinion/sex...icare-for-all/

Ending on the BUT... but let's look at the full context!

Preceeding paragraphs -

The din for Warren to release a specific funding plan increased, as did attacks from her rivals, and she and her campaign began working frantically to formulate one as her support dipped.

Actually, she released two plans. The first one was about how to fund the $52 trillion in spending that it would take to implement Medicare for All. It did not go over well, and it forced her to promise another plan that would, among other things, address the 2 million jobs that would be lost due to her first plan.

Then came the second plan, which was essentially to enact a juiced-up version of the Biden-Buttigieg plans, then see if Americans liked it enough to support Medicare for All. That was exactly the argument that Buttigieg had been making for months while Warren attacked him as a sellout.

Which entailed how her M4A plan was received extremely poorly, and her "compromise" plan had a similar reception.

BUT...

But Bernie Sanders was rewarded with a significant chunk of the support that Warren lost because he did not put out a specific plan to pay for his proposal, and nobody pressured him to.

In fact, in a recent interview, Sanders refused to give a price tag for his plan, after he had already given that same reporter a specific price tag months earlier. That reporter — The Washington Post‘s Robert Costa — not only failed to call Sanders out, he falsely wrote that “Sanders has declined to specify how much it would cost to implement his Medicare-for-all plan.”

This is a whopping 1:45 into this video. Yeah, this was already a waste of time and I'm not wasting more time. I checked, like you asked, your source is fucking hot garbage.

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At this point I'm convinced that Youtube is a more reliable source of information than mainstream media, so no.

Go to garbage sources, get garbage information, complain about being called out about the garbage information.

The Rochana cycle of life.

[Grapemask]

At this point I'm convinced that Youtube is a more reliable source of information than mainstream media, so no.

It absolutely is not. YouTube is a great place to link to if someone is able to an express your opinion better than you can, but using YouTube as a source for your information is about one step removed from being informed by Donald Trump's twitter feed.

[Edge-]

It absolutely is not. YouTube is a great place to link to if someone is able to an express your opinion better than you can, but using YouTube as a source for your information is about one step removed from being informed by Donald Trump's twitter feed.

"It's an open marketplace for ideas, where the best ones win out!"

*Most popular and most liked videos are memes and conspiracy theories*

Seriously, there are a handful of smart folks on YouTube worth watching every now and then, but the overwhelming majority of the channels I've come across, especially the "big" ones are top-tier garbage.

[jonnysensible]

At this point I'm convinced that Youtube is a more reliable source of information than mainstream media, so no.

honestly your critical thinking skills have left the building. This is awful.

[cubby]

I do not want Trump in office.

Then vote for Biden in November. It's literally that simple.

I am extremely upset and disappointed with the ideological cowardice of the Democratic Party and it's supporters however to vote for someone like Biden.

My concern is what will happen after 4-8 years of Biden. Someone just as malicious and criminal as Trump but smarter about it? Trump happened for a reason, right now you're lucky that he's an idiot. The next malicious Republican President might be less incompetent and cause more damage than Trump.

4-8 years of Biden and more status quo, no compromise towards social-democratic goals, is very likely to cause such disillusionment and disappointment that such a hostile republican president becomes very likely...

If you had to choose between:
A) 4 more years of Trump
or
B) A republican much more malicious and smarter than Trump, and just as willing to break all the laws and rules that are supposed to keep his power in check in 2024

... which one would you choose?

This is a classic False Dichotomy, which I will pass on answering or even addressing, because your summary and list of choices is entirely incomplete.

[Edge-]

It was the beginning of an in-depth explanation of why Warren lost critical support at some point despite doing so well earlier on. The internet jumped on the cringe and ridiculed her for it (not just Bernie Sanders supporters but everyone, including Buttigieg and Biden etc.)

Do you know what that is? Conflating political twitter having a laugh for meaningful sways in political opinion. There will likely be post-mortems on what happened to her campaign for years, but do you know what no single discussion of her campaign I've listened to from people actually involved in politics and know what they're talking about has mentioned? Her cringy dance.

Booker insinuating that nobody makes fun of him because he is a man and Warren is a woman. Eg, trying to score brownie points by virtue signaling about sexism.

He did nothing of the sort. Please show me where he remotely implied that gender played a role. He's making fun of his own dad jokes, something he regularly did during the campaign trail.

Countered by a list of examples of male candidates being laughed at and ridiculed on the internet just as much:

Honestly, I'd literally never even heard of the "Buttigieg dance". Why? Because I don't view political Twitter, which represents probably around 2-3% of the American voting base to begin with, as the entirety of politics. Because it's god-damn fucking not.

There is no need to look at deeper context.

And your hand has been tipped. Context matters. Intentionally taking materials out of context is a sign that you don't have evidence to support your preferred narrative and need to manufacture it.

Also known as: Intentionally lying.

Also I find it a bit hilarious that you act entire context-deaf for the entire 1,5 minute of the video you watched, but then suddenly you're concerned about context.

What context was I missing from the earlier bits? Please explain.

Article goes: "Warren lost support because of this reason and that reason BUT --- It's all Bernie's fault, trust me bro."

Cite where the article concludes this. Why didn't shoe show the full article? The outlet it was posted on? Link to it? Do something to provide context for her viewers?

Is video comprehension a skill that needs to be taught nowadays?

Apparently yes. If there are local classes, I suggest looking into them.

I didn't think I'd need to be explaining the extremely obvious, unless of course you're not of good intent to begin with.

No, I just finally humored your bullshit source and...it was a bullshit source.

By the way, still waiting on that link to the polling from weeks ago that you still refuse to provide!

[cubby]

If you're worried this one debate will hurt Biden, then he is absolutely doomed in the general. He has a things a lot harder ahead of him in this contest than a one-on-one with an obstinate old man.

Again, no. Being concerned that a completely useless debate will harm a candidate has no bearing on his chances in a general election - those are two separate things. And those harder things ahead of him don't include a debate, do they?

Sanders supporters want the debate for a lot of reasons, most of which fall under the category of "their candidate lost". I am NOT mocking Sanders supporters here. I am just pointing out that having a debate with Sanders is as useful for Biden as having a debate with Warren.

It gains Biden nothing and could harm him, as debates can harm any candidate, for a number of reasons.

[Vash The Stampede]

It's looking increasingly likely, failing him having a cognitive meltdown during the debates.

And I agree. I fully expect him to shift leftward a bit like Hillary did when she got the nomination, adopting some compromise versions of Sanders policies. If he doesn't, he hasn't earned Sanders supporters votes.

This doesn't mean he'll suddenly be on the M4A train though. This is about compromise here.

Considering the situation we're having with the Coronavirus, this would be the best time to get onto M4A. Especially since a lot of people are avoiding to seek medical help since it'll cost them money. By avoiding medical help, we spread the virus even further across America. I wonder if in light of Corona that some people might even choose Bernie Sanders over Joe Biden?

[Theodarzna]

Lots of Warren supporters were always never-Bernie voters anyway. And Warren was never part of a social-democratic movement to begin with. She is an opportunist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYFLGGcfymU

Wine Aunts, Girl Bosses, and an Woke HR secretaries are a scourge upon mankind.

[Edge-]

Considering the situation we're having with the Coronavirus, this would be the best time to get onto M4A.

Again, this ain't a fuckin switch you can flip overnight. I don't know if this is what you believe, but a TON of people genuinely believe we can have it in year 1, or even by year 8 should Sanders win two terms.

It ain't. Fuckin. Happening. This will be a decade+ long process with steps to achieve the final goal, as it requires overhauling the entire medical payment system from top to bottom, brand new negotiations with care providers and medical device makers/pharmaceutical companies on new rates, plans to address the upcoming loss of millions of jobs in the health insurance sector (even if private insurance remains it will be a small market) and for staff at doctors offices who exist largley to handle that kind of stuff etc. etc. etc.

I agree, the coronavirus is causing us to revisit A LOT of how we do things. Everything from health care/payment to day care, sick leave, the gig economy etc.

I wonder if in light of Corona that some people might even choose Bernie Sanders over Joe Biden?

Seems unlikely, and even if it did it wouldn't be an immediate fix no matter what some folks believe.

[jonnysensible]

Again, no. Being concerned that a completely useless debate will harm a candidate has no bearing on his chances in a general election - those are two separate things. And those harder things ahead of him don't include a debate, do they?

Sanders supporters want the debate for a lot of reasons, most of which fall under the category of "their candidate lost". I am NOT mocking Sanders supporters here. I am just pointing out that having a debate with Sanders is as useful for Biden as having a debate with Warren.

It gains Biden nothing and could harm him, as debates can harm any candidate, for a number of reasons.

If presenting and defending your platform harms you, its a shit platform. If you are worried about a friendly like Bernie you must be terrified of Trump.

The debate can generate consessions extracted from Biden by Bernie which will be essential for his future viability, it can only strengthen him really. If you looked at the demographics its important that Biden actually represents working people, not just the over 60's who voted for him enmasse. The democratic party needs to be a workers party not a boomer capital party, otherwise whats the point of it.

[Levelfive]

I do not want Trump in office.

I am extremely upset and disappointed with the ideological cowardice of the Democratic Party and it's supporters however to vote for someone like Biden.

My concern is what will happen after 4-8 years of Biden. Someone just as malicious and criminal as Trump but smarter about it? Trump happened for a reason, right now you're lucky that he's an idiot. The next malicious Republican President might be less incompetent and cause more damage than Trump.

4-8 years of Biden and more status quo, no compromise towards social-democratic goals, is very likely to cause such disillusionment and disappointment that such a hostile republican president becomes very likely...

If you had to choose between:
A) 4 more years of Trump
or
B) A republican much more malicious and smarter than Trump, and just as willing to break all the laws and rules that are supposed to keep his power in check in 2024

... which one would you choose?

You are not American, you have literally said, "Fuck the poor," and your political literacy is limited to shitty youtube videos--I hope no one's dumb enough to take you seriously.

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The Daily Show had a pretty good take on Sanders' last press conference, which was that it sounded less like an appeal to voters to vote for him and more like an appeal to Biden to adopt some of his platform. And that's probably exactly why this next debate is needed. It's not about talking to the voters. It's about talking to Biden and convincing him that he needs to lean a little more left.

Agreed. I read his speech and had the same impression.

[cubby]

If presenting and defending your platform harms you, its a shit platform. If you are worried about a friendly like Bernie you must be terrified of Trump.

The debate can generate consessions extracted from Biden by Bernie which will be essential for his future viability, it can only strengthen him really. If you looked at the demographics its important that Biden actually represents working people, not just the over 60's who voted for him enmasse. The democratic party needs to be a workers party not a boomer capital party, otherwise whats the point of it.

None of what you've said above is correct.

Debates harm and help candidates on a litany of factors. Some of which are controlled by the candidates, some not. Biden gains nothing from debating Sanders again. NOTHING. You think he will because you support Sanders' platform, and that's fine, but Sanders' platform didn't win. Biden's did. Sanders can accomplish what you're suggesting will happen in a debate by coming out publicly and strongly for Biden.

It's time to get behind the Democratic Presidential nominee and defeat Trump. Everything else is secondary.

[Edge-]

It's time to get behind the Democratic Presidential nominee and defeat Trump. Everything else is secondary.

Once they win the nomination. Biden ain't there yet, even if Sanders path to victory is minuscule. We've seen how wildly shit can swing one way or the other within a week, and the primary ain't over yet.

Once the nominee is chosen, and it will likely be Biden with the way things are trending, then rally the fuck behind whoever it is. But as long as the primary is still on, it's still a fight, even if it's a "hopeless" fight.

[cubby]

Considering the situation we're having with the Coronavirus, this would be the best time to get onto M4A. Especially since a lot of people are avoiding to seek medical help since it'll cost them money. By avoiding medical help, we spread the virus even further across America. I wonder if in light of Corona that some people might even choose Bernie Sanders over Joe Biden?

Yep, politicizing a global pandemic is just the thing to get Biden a win. Holy fuck are you politically naive.

Biden already did the very correct thing - he put out a policy statement explaining what he would do as President, and did so in a very Presidential way (the speech and text are linked above in this thread).

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Once they win the nomination. Biden ain't there yet, even if Sanders path to victory is minuscule. We've seen how wildly shit can swing one way or the other within a week, and the primary ain't over yet.

Once the nominee is chosen, and it will likely be Biden with the way things are trending, then rally the fuck behind whoever it is. But as long as the primary is still on, it's still a fight, even if it's a "hopeless" fight.

I agree in theory, but not in practicality. All the numbers are coming in for Biden, and the remaining states are just worse for Sanders. Sanders was opening talking about holding on for one more week then closing it down.

[jonnysensible]

None of what you've said above is correct.

Debates harm and help candidates on a litany of factors. Some of which are controlled by the candidates, some not. Biden gains nothing from debating Sanders again. NOTHING. You think he will because you support Sanders' platform, and that's fine, but Sanders' platform didn't win. Biden's did. Sanders can accomplish what you're suggesting will happen in a debate by coming out publicly and strongly for Biden.

It's time to get behind the Democratic Presidential nominee and defeat Trump. Everything else is secondary.

nonsense. This is a time of peak opportunism and leverage, aka politics. Bernie should stay in as long as possible it doesnt make any tactical sense to drop out early imo. Not having the debate would harm biden given the conspiracy theories of cognitive decline, dodging would be a bad look. If hes platform is such and winner he should be up for it. Both Bernie and Biden have earned the right to put forward thier platforms.

[Edge-]

I agree in theory, but not in practicality. All the numbers are coming in for Biden, and the remaining states are just worse for Sanders. Sanders was opening talking about holding on for one more week then closing it down.

Again: Remember how Biden's campaign was dead right before NC? No money. No groundgame. Still hadn't won a single state in his multiple primary campaigns, polling was low and indicated Sanders was on a straight path to victory.

Then Clyburn and a HUGE NC win and the tables flipped in the span of less than a week.

Under traditional/normal times, I'd agree with you. But given how volatile this whole primary has been, I can't reasonably justify being on board with this.

ESPECIALLY with the debate coming up, which needs to happen. It will be the test to see how either would handle a 1:1 debate with Trump, and is the Biden campaign's shot to try to convince voters that he's "all there" cognitively going into the general.

It's much riskier for Biden than Sanders, which is part of the nature of being a frontrunner, but it's also risky because of some of Biden's behavior which has, IMO, justifiably led to concern over his mental state. I'm legit worried about it myself, because I've seen the look on his face like he had in his video walking back to his vehicles after that Michigan rally and the nonsense with the union guy (which was way overblown IMO). My grandfather and others in my family have had that exact same look when they were suffering from dementia, and it scares the living hell outta me.